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OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

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Post#166 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:06 am by YogiStewart

tracey_nice wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".


what specifically?


didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry
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Post#167 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:10 am by YogiStewart

daleface wrote:^ That's what I'm saying.

Some of these GM's didn't due diligence by checking on Drummond. Rather, they based their decision on..or already had formed their opinion on him without really checking.

And that just shows that these GM's haven't been doing a good job.


and i posted that GMs had done more due diligence than you could possibly imagine and there was no way in hell they wanted anything to do with Drummond.

there's lots of stuff out there that plebes like you and I don't get to see or hear about. don't assume that NBA GMs are morons. they may not make moves to your liking, but they didn't BS and fool their way to their position by pulling the wool over dozens, if not hundreds, of college and NBA management staff.
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Post#168 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:25 am by ruckus

I don't hear this mentioned a lot but, draft position really influences the career progression of a player. Being drafted so low may have been the best thing for Drummond as it may have given him the impetus to actually work on his game and play with some intensity. Who knows if he would have turned out the same way at a higher pick.

It's not an excuse though for BC or for any GM to miss out on talent.

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Post#169 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:30 am by thunderforce

I know he is not a teen but Acy's per of 21.3 aint so bad either and he can shoot free throws too .
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Post#170 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:33 am by brownbobcat

YogiStewart wrote:didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry

This is not a team in a position to reject players of a Sprewell/Arenas calibre for the sake of chemistry. The chemistry of scrubs should never be a concern to anyone, anywhere, ever.
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Post#171 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:03 am by orangutooth

per is an amazing stat that definitely translates into wins.
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Post#172 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:11 am by lucky777s

YogiStewart wrote:and i posted that GMs had done more due diligence than you could possibly imagine and there was no way in hell they wanted anything to do with Drummond.

there's lots of stuff out there that plebes like you and I don't get to see or hear about. don't assume that NBA GMs are morons. they may not make moves to your liking, but they didn't BS and fool their way to their position



Joe Dumars is a GM. He did his due diligence and realized what a steal Drummond was at 8. So much so that JoeD tried to move up to 8 to get him. He KNEW Raps were not taking Drum but he was very worried about other teams moving up to 8 to get him. Word was that Henson was the guy DET was looking at leading up to the draft. When Drum dropped they jumped at the chance. JoeD owned BC on this one. Did not even have to give up a single asset even though he offered to. Ridiculous.

As for GMs getting their jobs by virtue of accomplishments? That is pure BS. Ex-players get some of those jobs with nothing but their playing ability and personality. Family members get some of those jobs. Guys who start out as interns and network their way within the organization get those jobs. Its a pretty tight circle in the nba and its more who you know than what you know. This is why so many guys just get recycled around the league.
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Post#173 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:13 am by Big Shot

I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can conceal all these things.

Having said that, in Toronto's case, I believe JV was the biggest reason why Drum was not even considered as a possible candidate for the pick. If true, I disagree with their decision.
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Post#174 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:15 am by peja drobnjak

due diligence: bc edition

*drafts centre in 2011, is thrilled*

"well i guess we have a centre already" *drafts shooting guard in 2012*

all i ever heard about drummond was that he wasn't intense and played a bit soft, otherwise he was a nice kid. you can't just keep pulling the 'gm's know better' card when you see regular fans day in and day out make better decisions than gm's on less information
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Post#175 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:31 am by Saciid11

Big Shot wrote:I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can seal all these things.


Who cares about other team, this is about Raptors ignoring scouts, fans, etc to pass up yet again a steal that was available to them at 8. This is exactly what he did when he drafted Bargnani, first he used the excuses of not being able to trade down, then he justified by labeling Aldridge a power forward who couldn t play the center position.. while Bargnani was justified as being able to play both positions ... This is exactly what he did here, he passed up Drummond because of his ego, he didnt want his project Bargnani being out performed by rookies and he want JVAL to be out performed too... BC is all about the ego, he has done nothing to improve this team in 7 years. Drummond could have been this teams chance to finally get franchise center, something we never had in 18 years this team existed.
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Post#176 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:35 am by Saciid11

This year if we get the #1 or #2 and Shabbazz is available, BC will pass up on him and take instead Cody Zeller... the reason Cody had the character we were looking for and he fits the type of players we like... Shabbazz is just not the player we looking for, besides we have Derozen( decent starter, but he is not difference maker) and Ross( overrated by Raps fans).....
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Post#177 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:36 am by wolfv

Raps' due dilligence was way off then. He is obviously very high on Jonas, and he was very high on Bargnani as we all know, even saying 13 games is a large sample size. This was the front court he wanted
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Post#178 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:54 am by Big Shot

Saciid11 wrote:
Big Shot wrote:I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can seal all these things.


Who cares about other team, this is about Raptors ignoring scouts, fans, etc to pass up yet again a steal that was available to them at 8. This is exactly what he did when he drafted Bargnani, first he used the excuses of not being able to trade down, then he justified by labeling Aldridge a power forward who couldn t play the center position.. while Bargnani was justified as being able to play both positions ... This is exactly what he did here, he passed up Drummond because of his ego, he didnt want his project Bargnani being out performed by rookies and he want JVAL to be out performed too... BC is all about the ego, he has done nothing to improve this team in 7 years. Drummond could have been this teams chance to finally get franchise center, something we never had in 18 years this team existed.


Hey, I didn't say we should care about what the other teams did, did I? My post was simply to address the other poster's comments regarding Gm's due diligence. If you knew me well, I always thought BC dropped the ball again without picking Drum. I even said before the draft if Drum was available at 8, no way we should pass on him simply based on the talent.
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Post#179 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:02 pm by hillbilly hare

lucky777s wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:and i posted that GMs had done more due diligence than you could possibly imagine and there was no way in hell they wanted anything to do with Drummond.

there's lots of stuff out there that plebes like you and I don't get to see or hear about. don't assume that NBA GMs are morons. they may not make moves to your liking, but they didn't BS and fool their way to their position



Joe Dumars is a GM. He did his due diligence and realized what a steal Drummond was at 8. So much so that JoeD tried to move up to 8 to get him. He KNEW Raps were not taking Drum but he was very worried about other teams moving up to 8 to get him. Word was that Henson was the guy DET was looking at leading up to the draft. When Drum dropped they jumped at the chance. JoeD owned BC on this one. Did not even have to give up a single asset even though he offered to. Ridiculous.

As for GMs getting their jobs by virtue of accomplishments? That is pure BS. Ex-players get some of those jobs with nothing but their playing ability and personality. Family members get some of those jobs. Guys who start out as interns and network their way within the organization get those jobs. Its a pretty tight circle in the nba and its more who you know than what you know. This is why so many guys just get recycled around the league.


Exactly. As we've said before.

There are some weak arguments out there regarding Drummond. That "7 other teams passed on him" so there must be reason. That he was a "headcase". That teams "did their due diligence" and found him wanting. And so on. If those assessments are correct, then the only answer is: a lot of people were wrong.

This isn't about getting a guy's talent wrong. It's about worrying about rumors of a guy's character. And in many cases, not checking out those rumors yourself to see if they were true. I don't know exactly where "all" the reports are or where they came from regarding Drummond as a headcase, but I do remember his college coach calling him a great kid who picked things up quickly. So apart from his college coach, who else did GMs interview to conclude that Drummond was a headcase?

More to the point. Joe Dumars interviewed Drummond and worked him out privately, and decided that Drummond was his guy. And he was right. Our GM didn't and wasn't. Dumars did and was. That's really all there is to it.
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Post#180 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:03 pm by Spacing

Neutral 123 wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:
Neutral 123 wrote:The armchair psychologists are the ones who wrote him off as some sort of headcase with obviously no reason for it. This was such a no brainer, and it was obvious that he would be an impact player. The only real question was how long it would take. If the Raps had anything, it was time.


from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".

What exactly? All I've heard is that he struggled with certain drills, and wasn't quick to pick up on stuff generally during workouts. Didn't BC just brag about passing on a top 3 talent because he didn't think the guy had the right personality, all the while not even working him out? I mean how does a guy still so high on Bargnani, question the mindset of anyone else in the league? But this is far more than Drummond. We can debate on what the Raps shoulda, coulda done, but objectively, the results stink. They have been well below average. There is little reason to think things will be substantially better in the immediate future. Why does this guy (BC) still deserve support? He should have been fired long ago. He's been an objective failure.


It is indeed true that BC was worrisome of his mental make-up.

What worried me the most at the time of the draft was that we were passing on a trade chip to help us move down and secure a player while still taking Ross who was projected in the late teens early twenties IIRC.

It is evidenced that there will always be a team willing to be a trade partner if they feel that said player can have an impact in the NBA. Every scout new Drummond, although raw, did have that ability to impact the game.

He just wasn't "NBA Ready" in comparison to Ross who was deemed "NBA Ready" yet can do nothing outside of Shoot the ball.

According to Bryan though, the ability to shoot a 3 ball far surpasses anything else a player can do on the court.
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Post#181 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:26 pm by SDM

He drafted for need. It's really simple.

How are you going to draft Drummond with long-term deals to his baby boy and Amir, plus a developing prospect in Ed, plus future franchise center in JVal? Our wing rotation at the time consisted of NBDL all-stars and Desmond Mason 2.0. Plus, Nash needed someone who can run and hit threes. He bungled it and now he's spinning it to come off as technically not making the wrong pick "because of a bunch of stuff we can't tell you because we're smarter and more experienced than you and know what we're doing". I can't believe reasonably intelligent people buy that steady stream of horse **** from executives who flat out suck in their jobs. Joe Dumars did the same due dilligence and now he has an asset better than any of ours.
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Post#182 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:00 pm by dTox

SDM wrote:He drafted for need. It's really simple.

How are you going to draft Drummond with long-term deals to his baby boy and Amir, plus a developing prospect in Ed, plus future franchise center in JVal? Our wing rotation at the time consisted of NBDL all-stars and Desmond Mason 2.0. Plus, Nash needed someone who can run and hit threes. He bungled it and now he's spinning it to come off as technically not making the wrong pick "because of a bunch of stuff we can't tell you because we're smarter and more experienced than you and know what we're doing". I can't believe reasonably intelligent people buy that steady stream of horse **** from executives who flat out suck in their jobs. Joe Dumars did the same due dilligence and now he has an asset better than any of ours.


pretty much....its the same situation when he claimed that the rebuilding was over prior to making an offer to Nash, and then turning around and calling it year 3 of a rebuild once the team shat the bed this season
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Post#183 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:30 pm by JN

Its amusing how the anti-Drummond narrative has changed from he sucked to "red flags". The Anti-Drummond camp is still claiming victory because they now present any pro-Drummond fan as being ignorant, lacking knowledge and stupid to want a player with these mysterious "red flags".

Those that are claiming "red flags" and saying its beyond just motor, probably are not NCAA fans. The red flags are not a mystery if you followed the Big East last year. He had many on the court related red flags. Its more than motor (which may be the only thing a casual fan knows) Basically it can all be summed up as - "We are not sure if Drummond actually likes playing basketball at an elite level". Inconsistent motor, no concept of team offence fundamentals, no attempt to get involved in any screens / picks, bad practice habits. If you talked to his coaches at UConn the feedback was probably not glowing from those perspectives.

For example, last year, two days before the UConn game against Seton Hall, a reporter asked Drummond how he was going to handle Herb Pope. Pope, a senior, was averaging about 20-10 for the Hall. Drummond had no clue who Pope even was. It's clear the guy was not that prepared. He just liked to go on the court and play -- but being a pro is more than that.

But the coaches would have also said he is a great kid who has interests outside of the game of basketball that most kids don't. Never had any off the court issues at UConn. Not a douche. Decided to get a loan for his academics instead of letting Calhoun take away a scholarship from a player in typical Calhoun fashion.

That is a tonne of red flags. As I said - no mystery. And then you watched and saw when the motor was on -- he had periods against Syracuse against Fab Melo that he was amazing -- he was Dwight Howard and Melo was basically Aaron Gray. You watched the game and you could tell the touch and atleticism was off the charts for such a strong kid. The question was -- will he mature? Let's remember the kid entered the defending NCAA champion at 17 years old -- a team that had weak veteran character and coaching uncertainty.

Look at it this way - the team had maturity questions about a 17 year old kid who is not a douchebag, and yet BC continues to build around a 27 year old who has the same "Does he actually like playing basketball at an elite level" issues. Awesome.

He was clearly a #1 or #2 type talent. But given the maturity issues, it did not make sense to take that much of a risk in the top three picks. But as you move down the draft the tolerance to take risk on special talent has to increase. I was not in favour of taking Drummond if we had a top three pick. But at #8 - absolutely. Its silly not to consider seriously take that risk if the red flags are not douche bag related.

Basically, the red flags are not some giant mystery to people who followed college basketball. They may be a mystery to those who didn't. And you are not an idiot for taklng someone with many basketball related red flags, if you weigh the risk against draft position and available players at #8.
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Post#184 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:36 pm by Neutral 123

YogiStewart wrote:
tracey_nice wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".


what specifically?


didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry

So did he even get into enough detail to compare him to Spreewell or Nate Robinson? It's funny because I don't and never saw that. The 'character' issues that I can see is that he doesn't seem as high energy as maybe you'd like, and he can come off as having a demeanor that is too passive and timid. I just really don't see the comparison to those guys you mentioned at all? Are you assuming that's what this person meant? Given what Spreewell did in his career, and what Arenas was doing before the injuries basically ended his career, those are guys the Raps should not be fearful of getting anyways. This super nice guy stuff is idiotic. No one's perfect, and these guys were hardly that bad other than one major incident in their careers. Hell, at least they seemed to enjoy playing and wanted to compete, which is far more than anyone can say about Bargnani.
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
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Post#185 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:41 pm by JN

The comparison of Drummond's red flags to Sprewell or Nate Robinson are plain stupid,
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