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OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

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Post#181 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:26 pm by SDM

He drafted for need. It's really simple.

How are you going to draft Drummond with long-term deals to his baby boy and Amir, plus a developing prospect in Ed, plus future franchise center in JVal? Our wing rotation at the time consisted of NBDL all-stars and Desmond Mason 2.0. Plus, Nash needed someone who can run and hit threes. He bungled it and now he's spinning it to come off as technically not making the wrong pick "because of a bunch of stuff we can't tell you because we're smarter and more experienced than you and know what we're doing". I can't believe reasonably intelligent people buy that steady stream of horse **** from executives who flat out suck in their jobs. Joe Dumars did the same due dilligence and now he has an asset better than any of ours.
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Post#182 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:00 pm by dTox

SDM wrote:He drafted for need. It's really simple.

How are you going to draft Drummond with long-term deals to his baby boy and Amir, plus a developing prospect in Ed, plus future franchise center in JVal? Our wing rotation at the time consisted of NBDL all-stars and Desmond Mason 2.0. Plus, Nash needed someone who can run and hit threes. He bungled it and now he's spinning it to come off as technically not making the wrong pick "because of a bunch of stuff we can't tell you because we're smarter and more experienced than you and know what we're doing". I can't believe reasonably intelligent people buy that steady stream of horse **** from executives who flat out suck in their jobs. Joe Dumars did the same due dilligence and now he has an asset better than any of ours.


pretty much....its the same situation when he claimed that the rebuilding was over prior to making an offer to Nash, and then turning around and calling it year 3 of a rebuild once the team shat the bed this season
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Post#183 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:30 pm by JN

Its amusing how the anti-Drummond narrative has changed from he sucked to "red flags". The Anti-Drummond camp is still claiming victory because they now present any pro-Drummond fan as being ignorant, lacking knowledge and stupid to want a player with these mysterious "red flags".

Those that are claiming "red flags" and saying its beyond just motor, probably are not NCAA fans. The red flags are not a mystery if you followed the Big East last year. He had many on the court related red flags. Its more than motor (which may be the only thing a casual fan knows) Basically it can all be summed up as - "We are not sure if Drummond actually likes playing basketball at an elite level". Inconsistent motor, no concept of team offence fundamentals, no attempt to get involved in any screens / picks, bad practice habits. If you talked to his coaches at UConn the feedback was probably not glowing from those perspectives.

For example, last year, two days before the UConn game against Seton Hall, a reporter asked Drummond how he was going to handle Herb Pope. Pope, a senior, was averaging about 20-10 for the Hall. Drummond had no clue who Pope even was. It's clear the guy was not that prepared. He just liked to go on the court and play -- but being a pro is more than that.

But the coaches would have also said he is a great kid who has interests outside of the game of basketball that most kids don't. Never had any off the court issues at UConn. Not a douche. Decided to get a loan for his academics instead of letting Calhoun take away a scholarship from a player in typical Calhoun fashion.

That is a tonne of red flags. As I said - no mystery. And then you watched and saw when the motor was on -- he had periods against Syracuse against Fab Melo that he was amazing -- he was Dwight Howard and Melo was basically Aaron Gray. You watched the game and you could tell the touch and atleticism was off the charts for such a strong kid. The question was -- will he mature? Let's remember the kid entered the defending NCAA champion at 17 years old -- a team that had weak veteran character and coaching uncertainty.

Look at it this way - the team had maturity questions about a 17 year old kid who is not a douchebag, and yet BC continues to build around a 27 year old who has the same "Does he actually like playing basketball at an elite level" issues. Awesome.

He was clearly a #1 or #2 type talent. But given the maturity issues, it did not make sense to take that much of a risk in the top three picks. But as you move down the draft the tolerance to take risk on special talent has to increase. I was not in favour of taking Drummond if we had a top three pick. But at #8 - absolutely. Its silly not to consider seriously take that risk if the red flags are not douche bag related.

Basically, the red flags are not some giant mystery to people who followed college basketball. They may be a mystery to those who didn't. And you are not an idiot for taklng someone with many basketball related red flags, if you weigh the risk against draft position and available players at #8.
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Post#184 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:36 pm by Neutral 123

YogiStewart wrote:
tracey_nice wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".


what specifically?


didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry

So did he even get into enough detail to compare him to Spreewell or Nate Robinson? It's funny because I don't and never saw that. The 'character' issues that I can see is that he doesn't seem as high energy as maybe you'd like, and he can come off as having a demeanor that is too passive and timid. I just really don't see the comparison to those guys you mentioned at all? Are you assuming that's what this person meant? Given what Spreewell did in his career, and what Arenas was doing before the injuries basically ended his career, those are guys the Raps should not be fearful of getting anyways. This super nice guy stuff is idiotic. No one's perfect, and these guys were hardly that bad other than one major incident in their careers. Hell, at least they seemed to enjoy playing and wanted to compete, which is far more than anyone can say about Bargnani.
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
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Post#185 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:41 pm by JN

The comparison of Drummond's red flags to Sprewell or Nate Robinson are plain stupid,
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Post#186 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:48 pm by Neutral 123

JN wrote:Its amusing how the anti-Drummond narrative has changed from he sucked to "red flags". The Anti-Drummond camp is still claiming victory because they now present any pro-Drummond fan as being ignorant, lacking knowledge and stupid to want a player with these mysterious "red flags".

Those that are claiming "red flags" and saying its beyond just matter, probably are not NCAA fans. The red flags are not a mystery if you followed the Big East last year. He had many on the court related red flags. Its more than motor (which may be the only thing a casual fan knows) Basically it can all be summed up as - "We are not sure if Drummond actually likes playing basketball at an elite level". Inconsistent motor, no concept of team offence fundamentals, no attempt to get involved in any screens / picks, bad practice habits. If you talked to his coaches at UConn the feedback was probably not glowing from those perspectives.

For example, last year, two days before the UConn game against Seton Hall, a reporter asked Drummond how he was going to handle Herb Pope. Pope, a senior, was averaging about 20-10 for the Hall. Drummond had no clue who Pope even was. It's clear the guy was not that prepared.

But they coaches, would have also said he is a great kid who has interests outside of the game of basketball that most kids don't. Never had any off the court issues at UConn. Decided to get a loan for his academics instead of letting Calhoun take away a scholarship from a player in typical Calhoun fashion.

That is a tonne of red flags. And then you watched when he was on -- he had periods against Syracuse against Fab Melo that he was amazing -- he was Dwight Howard and Melo was basically Aaron Gray. You watched the game and you could tell the touch and atleticism was off the charts. The question was -- will he mature? Let's remember the kid entered the defending NCAA champion at 17 years old -- a team that weak veteran character and coaching uncertainty.

Look at it this way - we have maturity questions about a 17 year old kid who is not a douchebag, and yet BC continues to build around a 27 year old who has the same "Does he like playing basketball at an elite level" issues. Awesome.

He was clearly a #1 or #2 type talent. But given the maturity issues, it did not make sense to take that much of a risk in the top three picks. But as you move down the draft the tolerance to take risk on special talent has to increase. I was not in favour of taking Drummond if we had a top three pick. But at #8 - absolutely. Its stupid not to take that risk if the red flags are not douche bag related.

Basically, the red flags are not some giant mystery to people who followed college basketball. They may be a mystery to those who didn't. And you are not an idiot for taklng someone with many basketball related red flags, if you weigh the risk against draft position and available players at #8.

YES! This actually makes some sense. I didn't know these details, but the interviews I've seen, and from watching him play, I'd figure that these would be the issues. He definitely seemed like a good kid, and if anything was missing the aggressiveness, the energy and awareness on the court that you'd like to see. Now posters are trying to insinuate he's a bad kid. SMDH....

And you are dead on. Yeah, it might not have been worth the risk higher, certainly I wouldn't blame GSW for drafting a guy who was highly touted previously in Barnes. But why pass on Drummond for a guy who was projected to guy quite a bit lower?

Hell, it's even MORE than making the wrong choice. It's the direction that BC is claiming to take the team. I have no issue with Ross, but taking a guy because you believe he was a good 'fit' and could be an immediate help role player, is NOT what a team like the Raps need. The Raps need blue chip talent, and at 8, to have a big man there and to pass, is absolutely mind boggling.
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
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Post#187 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:51 pm by Neutral 123

ruckus wrote:I don't hear this mentioned a lot but, draft position really influences the career progression of a player. Being drafted so low may have been the best thing for Drummond as it may have given him the impetus to actually work on his game and play with some intensity. Who knows if he would have turned out the same way at a higher pick.

It's not an excuse though for BC or for any GM to miss out on talent.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

I doubt him going 9 vs 8 would matter in that regard, or that it really matters at all.
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
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Post#188 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:56 pm by Neutral 123

Spacing wrote:
It is indeed true that BC was worrisome of his mental make-up.

What worried me the most at the time of the draft was that we were passing on a trade chip to help us move down and secure a player while still taking Ross who was projected in the late teens early twenties IIRC.

It is evidenced that there will always be a team willing to be a trade partner if they feel that said player can have an impact in the NBA. Every scout new Drummond, although raw, did have that ability to impact the game.

He just wasn't "NBA Ready" in comparison to Ross who was deemed "NBA Ready" yet can do nothing outside of Shoot the ball.

According to Bryan though, the ability to shoot a 3 ball far surpasses anything else a player can do on the court.

I think it's becoming clearer that BC needs to be worried about his own mental make up...
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
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Post#189 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:01 pm by Neutral 123

Big Shot wrote:I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can conceal all these things.

Having said that, in Toronto's case, I believe JV was the biggest reason why Drum was not even considered as a possible candidate for the pick. If true, I disagree with their decision.

Which is still idiotic. Val hadn't played an NBA game. So why in the world would he think he's set at the C? And as we've seen this year, Val has a ways to go.
To them, it's like everyone wants the money they are never going to make. amluvinit2 on the tea party..
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Post#190 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:05 pm by Raps in 4

YogiStewart wrote:
tracey_nice wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:from what i've been told by an NBA front office employee, there certainly were a LOT of reasons to label him as a headcase. and you do realize that we, the fan, do not have access to the background data that NBA front offices have, right?

the questions about Drummond did not stop at "does he have the motor to play in the NBA?".


what specifically?


didn't get details, but it was made quite clear that there (apparently) were a lot of red flags about him. lots. as is, he was a definite DO NOT WANT player.

i mean, people change and mature and stuff, but some clubs don't want to touch the Spreewells and Arenases and Nate Robinsons of the world. not worth the club's time and energy and not worth screwing up lockerroom chemistry


This logic only applies to teams that are contending. Rebuilding teams don't need to worry about "screwing up locker room chemistry" because they don't have any chemistry that is worth safeguarding. Rebuilding teams only need to worry about accumulating assets.
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Post#191 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:16 pm by sanity

character issues are overrated. its unfortunate for Ross that he does have a lot of potential and seems like a hard worker who will have a long career in the NBA, but he probably would've been better off being drafted elsewhere where he would not only have more opportunities (and better players to learn from who play this game properly), he could potentially fill a need and have a chance at earning a larger role. with derozan extended and the obviousness of the inability for either to handle playing the 3, Ross is pretty much stapled to having a minor role for the rest of his rookie contract.

i'm unsure if you could even say now that we drafted for need. between him and derozan (in spite of his shooting and defensive capabilities), there is still a lot overlap/redundancy
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Post#192 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:17 pm by ATLTimekeeper

I wouldn't assume the intel indicates he was a bad kid. I don't think Nate Robinson is a bad kid. I don't think Patrick O'Bryant is a bad kid, either. I also don't know exactly what the concern was with Drummond, but I do know that even Lawrence Frank points to "things that fans don't have access to" as a reason why Drummond doesn't get more minutes. So, the same "bull****" that our management may have tried to pull on us is being pulled in Detroit.

It was brought up before the draft by Chad Ford, I think, about how Howard goofed around in his pre-draft workouts and just tried to shoot jumpers, and that Tyson Chandler was considered really soft when he first got into the league. Sometimes these supposed personality flaws don't end up mattering.

I'm not going to cry about it. If Drummond ends up the next Howard, it'll be a historical anomaly. Good for Detroit. Sucks to be the other seven teams.
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Post#193 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:22 pm by Big Shot

Neutral 123 wrote:
Big Shot wrote:I believe the teams did their due diligence and passed on the guy. There were many red flags and they decided it was not worth the risk. Chances are they misjudged and placed the wrong bet. Why? If those red flags did exist, they would have showed a bit here and there and we would have heard of them by now. It is not like DET is a veteran team which can conceal all these things.

Having said that, in Toronto's case, I believe JV was the biggest reason why Drum was not even considered as a possible candidate for the pick. If true, I disagree with their decision.

Which is still idiotic. Val hadn't played an NBA game. So why in the world would he think he's set at the C? And as we've seen this year, Val has a ways to go.


Yeah, i agreed BC screwed up and dropped the ball again.

It might be Casey was the biggest culprit which we didn't know. I heard Casey was the happiest guy when Ross was chosen with that pick. Plus, he has been following Ross for years and much longer than BC has.
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Post#194 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:22 pm by sanity

nate robinson definitely isn't a bad character guy. he's an extremely hard worker---he just has a tendency to act a fool during games, whether in the huddle/off the bench, which a lot of commentators/fans are quick to point out and exaggerate into correlating that somehow it affects his ability to perform.

as big of a tag cousins gets for being a knuckelhead/problem-case, which he indeed is, i wouldn't for a second (if i'm Sacramento) regret that pick. talent/ability always... ALWAYS... outweights character issues, especially when the player more often than not plays up to expectations. until character problems actually effects a player's ability to perform, 'red-flags' is a complete crock. this is a talent-based league where 1 player has enough impact to determine the success of a team
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Post#195 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:32 pm by GreatWhiteStiff

It's weird how well he's doing what he does now compared to what he did in the ncaa...he's avging many more blocks per minute then anthony davis for example which basicly zero people predicted, and is crushing on the glass compared to valanciunas which im not sure a lot of people would have predicted (val's euro rebound numbers were excellent/drummonds ncaa rebounding was soso IIRC).
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Stop comparing the combined posters of an internet message board to someone with a mental illness!
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Post#196 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:36 pm by SDM

I'm starting to think "character issues" is code for "uppity".
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Post#197 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:45 pm by peja drobnjak

did 'character issues' really hurt attendance and viewership during the jailblazer days or was it just moralizing fidgeting from the front office that broke them up?
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Post#198 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:48 pm by MikeM

Character issues and interviewing people that "know" the 17/18 year old is the biggest croc of **** in the draft.

What's a bigger red flag? The fact that Drummond seemed aloof sometimes in a terrible program as a teenager or the fact that Terrence Ross can't dribble a basketball?

If you are avoiding players because they seem disinterested or slow as a teenager then how the hell does your management staff earn their pay cheques? If you're scared that you might have to actually develop a prospect then GTFO.

"Character issues" drives me up the wall.

Guy commits crime. Punches teammates. Beats girlfriend. Character issues.

Guy doesn't know what he's doing on the court. Doesn't know opponents. Character issues.

Wut
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Post#199 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:52 pm by ATLTimekeeper

peja drobnjak wrote:did 'character issues' really hurt attendance and viewership during the jailblazer days or was it just moralizing fidgeting from the front office that broke them up?


look it up
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Post#200 Re: OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greate
Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:53 pm by Spacing

The anti-drummond people claim "red flags"

when you ask them what the red flags were they ramble and keep shouting "red flags"
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