OT: Espn - Drummond could rank as 'greatest teen' in NBA his

[Neutral 123]

What's weird is that alot of people were claiming Drummond to be so raw but at this point he looks even more refined offensively than Jonas, especially his passing skills.

Drummond always had a decent touch and good hands. I think what you see with Val, is a guy who isn't trusted enough to get his own offense, and struggles a bit physically to get what he wants. Val imo does have the more refined offensive game, but at least at this point, it's not enough to be more useful than Drummond who can catch anything around the basket and finish.

The worry with Val imo is that it's not clear if he'll develop enough in any area to be an impact player. Drummond is missing the some of the skills on the offensive end, but he has the touch, and the physical attributes to dominate, and still be a very useful player even if he never develops completely offensively.

[Kevin Willis]

Oh please, no one said he was a legend. And yes, this is just another on a looooong list of BC failures.

You say that no-one says he's a legend but Tecumseh says right after it will be another generation before we see another player like Drummond which makes him a once in a generation player - a legend.

I said another generation before WE (the Raptors) would get a chance to draft a player with his characteristics. That's different from a true "once a generation" player - like a pre-surgery Dwight.

I said we as well - meaning Raptors. You're putting Drummond on the same level as a Carter, Bosh and T-Mac. Guys that don't come around often, Raptor legends bordering on HOF candidates. I don't see that yet.

But lets agree to disagree. I believe BC made a ton of mistakes but I don't think not drafting Drummond is his biggest one. If you try, the rationale is understandable.

[Dr Positivity]

What made BC incompetent in that draft wasn't that he passed on Drummond. It was that he passed on Drummond and passed on Lamb at the same time

Taking Lamb at 8 over Drummond would've been justifiable because it's obvious that Lamb also has HUGE upside and star potential. He's clearly a more talented version of Ross due to his ball-handling/penetrating ability, length and even better shooting and feel.

There is no way to argue that taking Ross gave us the best chance of getting a perennial all-star and franchise player, even if one wasn't sold on Drummond's upside due to a lack of offensive skills, Lamb clearly had more upside than Ross. And if BC actually believed we just drafted a future star and franchise guy in Ross, we'd have heard a ton more hype from his BS snake oil mouth.

I don't think the Raptors had a "we have to try and get a star" mentality in this draft at all. Because BC was relying on using free agency and trades to make the team he wanted

[Basketball_Jones]

I still like Lamb a lot, but doesn't look like we'll be seeing what he can do anytime soon.

[Dr Positivity]

I still like Lamb a lot, but doesn't look like we'll be seeing what he can do anytime soon.

I don't think OKC is resigning Kevin Martin, they'd be DEEP in the lux tax next year, and he hasn't looked like a must-keep player the last few months anyways. Lamb likely is the 6th man starting next year

[mid-post]

As a UConn fan it is pretty weird to hear about "red flags" with Drummond. I mean he definitely underperformed last season, but there were never any reports or rumors about Drummond failing to work hard, or listen to coaches, or sulking, etc. Coming in he seemed like a nice kid who just wanted to live up to the hype and help his team win games.

As for his lack of dominance and uneven performance last year:
He decided to join the team like a week before the semester started (maybe a red flag or maybe just a kid having a change of heart). He didn't have the luxury of training at UConn with the other players the whole summer and he had to quickly integrate with a young team that had developed a good amount of chemistry in their run to the championship but whose social hierarchy was kind of "off" when Kemba Walker, the real leader of that squad, left for the league.

His teammate Alex Oriakhi was an important voice in the locker room and one of the primary leaders of the squad (because of seniority). It didn't end up working out; Oriakhi squawked quite a bit publicly on Twitter about having to split minutes with Andre. So I can't imagine that made Drummond comfortable. On top of that, Drummond definitely seems like the kind of person to defer to people around him who are higher up on the food chain. So Drummond breaks his nose a week in, starts the first few games off wearing a mask, doesn't have Calhoun there for every game, plays next to inexperienced guards that don't really know how to use him and he's expected to be the man. All while just trying to be one of the guys and playing like a monster. It just wasn't a recipe for success.

Now as for what I saw basketball wise from him last year: There were times when he'd pick up cheap fouls, but they weren't stupid fouls, just ticky tack crap that they don't call on you in the NBA. Just jostling for position, using your physicality to establish position, etc. So that stuff limited his minutes early on. On top of that, he liked to take shots that were...unorthodox, and when he missed them, Calhoun would yank him almost instantly. He clearly was playing the game strictly on instinct, size and athleticism. But at times all three of those characteristics were so overwhelming, he'd do stuff that would just make you shif your pants and he'd have spurts where he'd totally dominate the game by d'ing up and pounding the glass.

From a playing standpoint last year, what you could definitely consider "red flags" were:
free throw shooting
looking lost, but not frequently
maybe avoiding the basketball because of free throws
maybe he's not mean or aggressive enough

But he had some really nice attributes as well:
Played good defense, man and help, hedged really well on screens all year.
Deflected a decent number of balls.
When guys would try and bully or test him with an elbow or a shove, he always gave it right back

He has skills, but other than his soft touch, they aren't traditional big man stuff: he has good handles/first step and likes to do some pretty athletic DRose type layups and uses the glass pretty well. But all his success in the post was/is due to his fantastic hands, his athleticism and his size. I guess the question was, "Will that rudimentary skillset translate against the true big men of the NBA?" I think he's answered that question. Now the big question is, "Will he develop a post game?"

I think the concerns about Drummond being sort of like a Javale McGee type are fair if you weren't looking at his impact on the game defensively and totally ignoring the way he plays on offense (smart, good touch around the rim, pretty good passer). Maybe they were worried all they'd wind up with is another Javale McGee. And that's where passing up on him is sort of forgiveable: if you think all you're getting is another Javale and you need to develop a guy for four years but you already have some decent players in your frontcourt, maybe it's not worth it.

I didn't hear a peep all year (or before he declared) about character issues, so whoever started those rumors, Detroit thanks you. Who knows, seeing him cry on draft day, maybe dropping to 9 ended up lighting a real fire under his ass, but we'll never know. Drummond seems like a really nice guy, and as a UConn fan, I wish him the best. I really hope to see his game blossom. I don't think you guys should get too upset with Colonjello over this one. Not until he's an All-Star anyway.

Just my two cents.

[Kevin Willis]

Nice post, mid-post.

If Drummond fulfills his potential he could be better than Davis but that's a risk that can get a GM fired. But as of right now - lets just wait and see and be happy for the light that was lit under his @ss that might not have been lit in Toronto.

[Saciid11]

Nice post, mid-post.

If Drummond fulfills his potential he could be better than Davis but that's a risk that can get a GM fired. But as of right now - lets just wait and see and be happy for the light that was lit under his @ss that might not have been lit in Toronto.

Drafting Bargnani with the #1 pick didn't get BC fired, so why would it be risky to draft a guy that was supposed to go top 3 at the #8 pick...

[Totem]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czs9XY6FRRw&list=PLlVlyGVtvuVma1aFD1WxGfHcG9wj88-LH&index=4[/youtube]

[Kabookalu]

My thoughts exactly mid-post. People said he looked lethargic and that was a red flag and people questioned his desire for the game. That's not what I saw. I saw a kid, who just so happens to be the biggest guy on the court, looking to simply just play the game. He kind of just went into games and was self conscious about his boundaries, and who could blame him; he was away from home, the freshman on the team, and the team just came off a championship. All the conditions that happened at UCONN went against him and drove his value as low as it possibly could have went, to Detroit's benefit.

Maybe it's a knock on him that he doesn't want to be a killer, a bonafide leader and franchise type player, but it didn't mean he can't be an effective player, because he's clearly showing that right now.

[mid-post]

My thoughts exactly mid-post. People said he looked lethargic and that was a red flag and people questioned his desire for the game. That's not what I saw. I saw a kid, who just so happens to be the biggest guy on the court, looking to simply just play the game. He kind of just went into games and was self conscious about his boundaries, and who could blame him; he was away from home, the freshman on the team, and the team just came off a championship. All the conditions that happened at UCONN went against him and drove his value as low as it possibly could have went, to Detroit's benefit.

Yeah, look at the draftexpress report from March 21 2012:

He doesn't appear to be going 100% at times, and there have been some concerns raised about exactly how passionate he is about the game of basketball due to his laid-back demeanor.

orly jonathan.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA ... mond-3868/

Personally I don't put a whole lot of stock in this guy's opinion and I kind of wonder if he didn't contribute to these rumors in a major way. As a UConn fan I didn't see or hear any of this stuff during the season, not from the fans, not from the UConn press, not from the message boards. So if Raptors fans want to blame someone, blame the draftexpress dweeb.

[Volcano]

Drummond is a good young player but he's not a legend that people are making him out to be. He hasn't turned around a franchise. He doesn't start over Greg Monroe. He plays limited minutes and makes his living off of scraps. No team game plans for Drummond.

He's not Howard, Shaq, Stoudemire or Yao Ming(older). He's not KG, T-Mac or even KD and Beasley (teens). He's a good young player on a non-playoff team with limited minutes. Give him more than half a season to see what his motor really is like. Let him start. Let him see how he executes plays run for him. No-one questioned his talent but we have a decent front-line as is. Drummond, Davis, JV and Amir is a front-court to fire a coach.

A lot of teams passed on Drummond. Before the start of the last NCAA season he was seeded 1 or 2 along with Davis. Compare their seasons. Ask yourself if you put Drummond on NO can he make the same impact. If you put Drummond on Washington can he help them more than Beal. How about GS? How about Portland? On a draft that lacked seperation we needed a Ross-type more than a Drummond-type. And Ross was doing well until teams caught on to him. He will adjust. He may never be as good as Drummond but then again in 3 years Drummond can stop caring.

Such unnecessary exaggeration all in an attempt to flame BC. Comments from anger lead to bad comments.

Summary:
- he sucks because he's not an all-star this season
- put him in a different situation and he'll suck for sure
- if other teams pass on a player, we should too
- draft for need and character, ignore talent
- Drummond can't shoot 3's
- Opposing teams are locked in on Ross, who will adjust. They haven't caught onto Drummond yet, but when they do, Drummond won't be able to adjust.

all very convincing points

[God Squad]

Nice post, mid-post.

If Drummond fulfills his potential he could be better than Davis but that's a risk that can get a GM fired. But as of right now - lets just wait and see and be happy for the light that was lit under his @ss that might not have been lit in Toronto.

Drafting top 5 player in terms of potential at 8/9 shouldn't get a gm fired. That's the type if high risk/high reward pick we should of made and it will separate the decent drafters from great ones.

[hillbilly hare]

Another interesting comparison to a young big man with lots of potential was Andrea, another guy with "motivation" and "character" issues. If you remember at draft time, Colangelo stated that he was blown away by Andrea's Caliper (sp?) test results, which Bryan called "off the charts". Obviously the Caliper test needs some tweaking. Maybe a good old fashioned sit-down interview with Drummond and a tough private workout with a vet big man or two might've provided a better idea of Drummond's potential than Colangelo got with Andrea.

It should also be pointed out how underwhelming Andrea looked in the Italian league the season before he was drafted. He literally was the poster boy of the "big Euro" hybrid small forward and soft power forward. With his size and skills, "all" Andrea had to do to be an NBA All-star was find some passion and drive. And a pair of balls wouldn't have hurt either.

The point? It isn't easy to find a diamond in the rough, but that's where good GMs separate from less good ones. The priority has to be to build a better mousetrap in terms of pre-draft assessments. An interesting thing is that there might've been alleged red flags about Drummond's character, which hurt his draft stock, but on the other hand Drummond's upside (given age, size and position) was just screaming Bynum 2.0, so it's a bit surprising that GMs didn't learn their lesson from the 2005 draft when so many passed on Bynum, many without even having worked him out.

[Ell Curry]

I said this back then (in the archives) and I'll say it again:

Drummond had great upside, but even if he'd played poorly we could have traded him for a solid return since he's so big, so young and so athletic. The history of the league (Kwame Brown + others) demonstrates this. Obviously Drummond has had a great rookie year, while Ross has just looked decent. But even if they had both been having great years, or both been decent, Drummond would have more value.

This is just another example of the Raptors trying to win now and not thinking about increasing the overall talent/asset level of the team. Depressing.

[AbC?]

Go ahead and put me on your ignore list. It doesn't bother me. I'm not trying to be a **** disturber, but I've really had it with this team. Passing on Drummond was the final straw for me. Watching him in preseason made me remember how truly disappointed I was on draft night. That was our one chance to really create something special here. It's just so utterly disappointing for me. Like I said, you can shake your head at me if you want, I'm just being honest. I've bought League Pass this year so I'm going to get my basketball fix regardless.

Having thought about it, I think I know why I am disappointed - because I set my expectations too high. All we heard for the entire 2010-11 season was REBUILD. We were finally going to rebuild the right way (via high picks in the draft). This led me to believe that we were serious about it, that we were really going to build this thing from the ground up and had championship aspirations. FINALLY. I mean, if we can’t attract stars in FA or trade for them what other option do we have left? Obviously the draft. So we tanked the 2010-11 season, dropped from 3rd to 5th in the lottery, but got extremely lucky with Val. We then proceeded to blatantly tank the entire 2011-12 campaign in order to get a high pick in a loaded draft. Unfortunately, many other teams did the same and we finished with the 8th pick. Obviously that was disappointing because it put us in a different tier in terms of available talent in the draft. But I still believed we were building this team with the long-term health of the franchise in mind (ie. taking someone with the most long-term potential). Just like how Bryan said following the 2011 draft that "we got this one right" and "3-5 years down the road people will say THIS was the right pick" and "for those who want instant gratification, well I cannot serve you in that way". These are all things Bryan said following our selection of Val in the 2011 draft.

But then we did a complete 180 at the 2012 draft. Suddenly it was all about "accelerating the rebuild" (Bryan’s words) and going all in for a 38-year-old Nash. That was our "long-term" plan. Bryan had abandoned the rebuild. WHY? Was it because we had accumulated so much young high-end potential talent in the draft? Was it because we had secured the foundation of our team for long-term, consistent winning? We were really on the path of a contender? Or even a pretender? I mean DeRozan and Davis are OK players, but they’re not stars, nor will they ever be. Valanciunas was the one piece we hit on in the drafts from 2009-2011. Is that how you successfully complete a rebuild? You just take your high picks from three consecutive drafts and call it a day, regardless of whether they’re potential stars or not? Or do you just say **** it, we’ve done our 3-4 years of getting top-10 picks so we must be done rebuilding, right? And when the Nash plan failed, Bryan Colangelo couldn't take the shame of having Nash play for New York in our own division so he offered Fields the ridiculous contract to try and save face in front of his bosses.

We then passed on Drummond, who absolutely fell into our laps at 8, a guy who was consistently ranked 2nd or 3rd (at worst) all year, a guy with generational size and athleticism (he looks healthy Oden-esque out there), a guy we passed on because we already have **** Bargnani (and I don't buy any argument for why we shouldn't have taken Drummond... not one... whether he could have been flipped as a trade asset, or developed alongside Val and just let them figure it out).... and instead opted to go with a guy with a roleplayer's ceiling just because he was (debatably) a better "fit" with Nash and would have (again, debatable) gave us a more "win now" impact as opposed to a project... well, that was a shock to me. He and Monroe are going to be DYNAMITE together. I see no reason why Drummond couldn't average at least 25-30 MIN in his rookie year. He doesn't foul. He's already good defensively. He's got that soft touch. The speed, mobility, size, finishing ability, and athleticism are all there. He's got to get better on the defensive boards but it's not a huge issue. He's just a fun player to watch.

And I disagree with those saying it's too early to make a judgment. Just because you’re unable to see talent when it’s in front of you, well, don’t blame that on me. All you have to do is watch Drummond play. Just watch him play and tell me you're not impressed. And I'm not just talking about the last couple games. Watch footage from him in college. Watch him in summer league. Watchin him in preseason. The talent is undeniable. He was rated #2 all year for a reason. Label me an extremist if you want, but I think Bryan needs to be fired for this. It's going to prove to be an epic mistake. All of his positive attributes were on full display at UConn. He's a good offensive rebounder, and a poor defensive rebounder. He was underrated offensively in college and i said so at the time. Did Amare have a post game as a rookie or did he get by on his athleticism? Same logic applied to Drummond. It was evident he was already an NBA defender in college. Elite size and athleticism. Bryan passed because of the Nash plan, because of Casey’s input, BC needing to win now to save his job, because we wanted to avoid the risk, and because we already have Bargs, Ed, and Amir. It's just inexcusable. And for those who say he was a boom-bust prospect, let me ask you this: How is a guy whose projected worst-case scenario is a starting caliber roleplaying center a boom-bust prospect? I never saw a Mbenga, Thabeet or Diop-like potential bust when I watched him play. I saw a guy with NBA-ready skills and a unique physical profile. I saw a guy who was going to be a better pro than a college player. I saw a guy who was over-scrutinized and became underrated. All you had to do was watch him play to see that he was already offensively adept at offensive rebounding, putbacks, garbage points, alleyoops, finishing with authority (dunking), and even had a soft fadeaway jumper. And that's just offensively. Defensively he was already an impact player. He had excellent 1-on-1 D and great shot locking instincts. And he didn't foul. And all of this without mentioning his SIZE and ATHLETICISM. No, he didn't have a post game. And no, he was weak at defensive rebounding. And he had mental concerns. He also wasn't an alpha dog. But he was a good kid. Nobody said he was a cancer or a malcontent.

And this isn’t even exclusively about Drummond. It’s about the entire philosophy of our front office, management, and ownership. Why did they go for a single or a double when they could have went for the home-run? I guess if you’re happy with a 1st-round-knockout team than all the power to you. I like Ross, I liked him before the draft. He was a guy that I labelled as a “winner.” He looked like someone who would turn out to be a pretty good roleplayer, but that was his ceiling. I didn’t see star-potential in him. He looked like a “3 and D” defensive roleplayer.

I will give credit that this team certainly looks better with Lowry and Val. That’s exciting. But how is this team going to improve once it flatlines as a lower-seed playoff team (at best) that can’t get past the 1st round? What will players outside of Lowry/Val return? What type of value do DeRozan, Davis, Amir, Bargnani, Fields, and Calderon really hold? Because unless you can get a star player or two from that lot then this team really isn’t going anywhere in the long run.

Now I've only been following the Raps since the tail-end of the 2005-06 season. I wasn't around for the Hoffa draft, for the Radojevic draft, for all those other things. So 2012 was an eye-opener for me. Now I KNOW that this organization really doesn't care about winning a championship but would instead be satisfied with a consistent 1st-round knockout team and making a little profit on the side. And it starts at the very top with the owners. Most of us have endured all the years with MLSE/Peddie. The very nature of their ownership was to ensure short-term Return on Investment for the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan. It’s why they care more about making money than winning. We all know that. I guess accepting this makes everything much easier to swallow. Why should I expect anything less? And then the apathy sets in. There it is.

- Komodo

[Neutral 123]

Go ahead and put me on your ignore list. It doesn't bother me. I'm not trying to be a **** disturber, but I've really had it with this team. Passing on Drummond was the final straw for me. Watching him in preseason made me remember how truly disappointed I was on draft night. That was our one chance to really create something special here. It's just so utterly disappointing for me. Like I said, you can shake your head at me if you want, I'm just being honest. I've bought League Pass this year so I'm going to get my basketball fix regardless.

Having thought about it, I think I know why I am disappointed - because I set my expectations too high. All we heard for the entire 2010-11 season was REBUILD. We were finally going to rebuild the right way (via high picks in the draft). This led me to believe that we were serious about it, that we were really going to build this thing from the ground up and had championship aspirations. FINALLY. I mean, if we can’t attract stars in FA or trade for them what other option do we have left? Obviously the draft. So we tanked the 2010-11 season, dropped from 3rd to 5th in the lottery, but got extremely lucky with Val. We then proceeded to blatantly tank the entire 2011-12 campaign in order to get a high pick in a loaded draft. Unfortunately, many other teams did the same and we finished with the 8th pick. Obviously that was disappointing because it put us in a different tier in terms of available talent in the draft. But I still believed we were building this team with the long-term health of the franchise in mind (ie. taking someone with the most long-term potential). Just like how Bryan said following the 2011 draft that "we got this one right" and "3-5 years down the road people will say THIS was the right pick" and "for those who want instant gratification, well I cannot serve you in that way". These are all things Bryan said following our selection of Val in the 2011 draft.

But then we did a complete 180 at the 2012 draft. Suddenly it was all about "accelerating the rebuild" (Bryan’s words) and going all in for a 38-year-old Nash. That was our "long-term" plan. Bryan had abandoned the rebuild. WHY? Was it because we had accumulated so much young high-end potential talent in the draft? Was it because we had secured the foundation of our team for long-term, consistent winning? We were really on the path of a contender? Or even a pretender? I mean DeRozan and Davis are OK players, but they’re not stars, nor will they ever be. Valanciunas was the one piece we hit on in the drafts from 2009-2011. Is that how you successfully complete a rebuild? You just take your high picks from three consecutive drafts and call it a day, regardless of whether they’re potential stars or not? Or do you just say **** it, we’ve done our 3-4 years of getting top-10 picks so we must be done rebuilding, right? And when the Nash plan failed, Bryan Colangelo couldn't take the shame of having Nash play for New York in our own division so he offered Fields the ridiculous contract to try and save face in front of his bosses.

We then passed on Drummond, who absolutely fell into our laps at 8, a guy who was consistently ranked 2nd or 3rd (at worst) all year, a guy with generational size and athleticism (he looks healthy Oden-esque out there), a guy we passed on because we already have **** Bargnani (and I don't buy any argument for why we shouldn't have taken Drummond... not one... whether he could have been flipped as a trade asset, or developed alongside Val and just let them figure it out).... and instead opted to go with a guy with a roleplayer's ceiling just because he was (debatably) a better "fit" with Nash and would have (again, debatable) gave us a more "win now" impact as opposed to a project... well, that was a shock to me. He and Monroe are going to be DYNAMITE together. I see no reason why Drummond couldn't average at least 25-30 MIN in his rookie year. He doesn't foul. He's already good defensively. He's got that soft touch. The speed, mobility, size, finishing ability, and athleticism are all there. He's got to get better on the defensive boards but it's not a huge issue. He's just a fun player to watch.

And I disagree with those saying it's too early to make a judgment. Just because you’re unable to see talent when it’s in front of you, well, don’t blame that on me. All you have to do is watch Drummond play. Just watch him play and tell me you're not impressed. And I'm not just talking about the last couple games. Watch footage from him in college. Watch him in summer league. Watchin him in preseason. The talent is undeniable. He was rated #2 all year for a reason. Label me an extremist if you want, but I think Bryan needs to be fired for this. It's going to prove to be an epic mistake. All of his positive attributes were on full display at UConn. He's a good offensive rebounder, and a poor defensive rebounder. He was underrated offensively in college and i said so at the time. Did Amare have a post game as a rookie or did he get by on his athleticism? Same logic applied to Drummond. It was evident he was already an NBA defender in college. Elite size and athleticism. Bryan passed because of the Nash plan, because of Casey’s input, BC needing to win now to save his job, because we wanted to avoid the risk, and because we already have Bargs, Ed, and Amir. It's just inexcusable. And for those who say he was a boom-bust prospect, let me ask you this: How is a guy whose projected worst-case scenario is a starting caliber roleplaying center a boom-bust prospect? I never saw a Mbenga, Thabeet or Diop-like potential bust when I watched him play. I saw a guy with NBA-ready skills and a unique physical profile. I saw a guy who was going to be a better pro than a college player. I saw a guy who was over-scrutinized and became underrated. All you had to do was watch him play to see that he was already offensively adept at offensive rebounding, putbacks, garbage points, alleyoops, finishing with authority (dunking), and even had a soft fadeaway jumper. And that's just offensively. Defensively he was already an impact player. He had excellent 1-on-1 D and great shot locking instincts. And he didn't foul. And all of this without mentioning his SIZE and ATHLETICISM. No, he didn't have a post game. And no, he was weak at defensive rebounding. And he had mental concerns. He also wasn't an alpha dog. But he was a good kid. Nobody said he was a cancer or a malcontent.

And this isn’t even exclusively about Drummond. It’s about the entire philosophy of our front office, management, and ownership. Why did they go for a single or a double when they could have went for the home-run? I guess if you’re happy with a 1st-round-knockout team than all the power to you. I like Ross, I liked him before the draft. He was a guy that I labelled as a “winner.” He looked like someone who would turn out to be a pretty good roleplayer, but that was his ceiling. I didn’t see star-potential in him. He looked like a “3 and D” defensive roleplayer.

I will give credit that this team certainly looks better with Lowry and Val. That’s exciting. But how is this team going to improve once it flatlines as a lower-seed playoff team (at best) that can’t get past the 1st round? What will players outside of Lowry/Val return? What type of value do DeRozan, Davis, Amir, Bargnani, Fields, and Calderon really hold? Because unless you can get a star player or two from that lot then this team really isn’t going anywhere in the long run.

Now I've only been following the Raps since the tail-end of the 2005-06 season. I wasn't around for the Hoffa draft, for the Radojevic draft, for all those other things. So 2012 was an eye-opener for me. Now I KNOW that this organization really doesn't care about winning a championship but would instead be satisfied with a consistent 1st-round knockout team and making a little profit on the side. And it starts at the very top with the owners. Most of us have endured all the years with MLSE/Peddie. The very nature of their ownership was to ensure short-term Return on Investment for the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan. It’s why they care more about making money than winning. We all know that. I guess accepting this makes everything much easier to swallow. Why should I expect anything less? And then the apathy sets in. There it is.

- Komodo

Yep, that truly was everything stated perfectly.

[YogiStewart]

Yeah, look at the draftexpress report from March 21 2012:

He doesn't appear to be going 100% at times, and there have been some concerns raised about exactly how passionate he is about the game of basketball due to his laid-back demeanor.

orly jonathan.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA ... mond-3868/

Personally I don't put a whole lot of stock in this guy's opinion and I kind of wonder if he didn't contribute to these rumors in a major way. As a UConn fan I didn't see or hear any of this stuff during the season, not from the fans, not from the UConn press, not from the message boards. So if Raptors fans want to blame someone, blame the draftexpress dweeb.

wow.

1. Givony is probably one of the most dialed in guys out there
2. You don't put stock in what he says? you're probably in the minority
3. again, as Joe Fan, you are limited to what people know behind the scene. you really are. there are so many layers to the media, sources, athletes, etc. what you hear is usually what someone WANTS you to hear. you aren't going to hear the real dirt and rumours. so if someone like Givony - who has his finger on the pulse of NCAA and European ball like few do - says there are red flags, then he knows something legitimate.

don't follow Givony. he has more hits than misses and, while he may occasionally be wrong, he's usually bang on. go look at his predicted draft board year in and year out. he's never far off.

[Neutral 123]

Yeah, look at the draftexpress report from March 21 2012:

He doesn't appear to be going 100% at times, and there have been some concerns raised about exactly how passionate he is about the game of basketball due to his laid-back demeanor.

orly jonathan.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA ... mond-3868/

Personally I don't put a whole lot of stock in this guy's opinion and I kind of wonder if he didn't contribute to these rumors in a major way. As a UConn fan I didn't see or hear any of this stuff during the season, not from the fans, not from the UConn press, not from the message boards. So if Raptors fans want to blame someone, blame the draftexpress dweeb.

wow.

1. Givony is probably one of the most dialed in guys out there
2. You don't put stock in what he says? you're probably in the minority
3. again, as Joe Fan, you are limited to what people know behind the scene. you really are. there are so many layers to the media, sources, athletes, etc. what you hear is usually what someone WANTS you to hear. you aren't going to hear the real dirt and rumours. so if someone like Givony - who has his finger on the pulse of NCAA and European ball like few do - says there are red flags, then he knows something legitimate.

don't follow Givony. he has more hits than misses and, while he may occasionally be wrong, he's usually bang on. go look at his predicted draft board year in and year out. he's never far off.

It wouldn't be fair to blame the dweeb anyways because Colangelo should have done his own homework. What's incredible is that we are supposed to believe that BC had concerns about Drummond's mental approach to the game, while he still believe Bargs is the next Dirk. I mean this guy wouldn't know disinterested if it flopped down in front of him and ate 3 bowls of Primo pasta.

[Basketball_Jones]

Drummond does seem a bit stoic out there. Even after monster jams there's literally no emotion. I don't know why they just perceived that as a sign he doesn't care, but perhaps they just linked that to his overall play at UConn and put two and two together. More teams should have done their homework.