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Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinking?

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Post#31 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:47 pm by Beardman

StatLine wrote:Mediocre players around the league should be lining up to play for Toronto. Colangelo loves to overrate his guys and overpay.

It's really amazing that MLSE allows him to spend like this ... 20 mil for Fields ? like wtf is going on up stairs ?

I bet if Lowry and his agent ask for the max, BC will blink within the hour.
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Post#32 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:47 pm by Hero

I like Demar but it is a horrible contract and a horrible decision. This is the life of a Raptor fan though. Reward a guy for playing no defense.
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Post#33 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:48 pm by DatHomieYouHaTe

StatLine wrote:Mediocre players around the league should be lining up to play for Toronto. Colangelo loves to overrate his guys and overpay.


The players must love him so much. He's made so many scrubs rich beyond their wildest dreams. He's the Santa Claus of the NBA.. He's always in the giving mood.
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Post#34 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:52 pm by Greg Stink

I think it was for Demar's 32% clutch shooting last season (zero 3s, 71% FTs, 82Games.com). Ice water.
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Post#35 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:53 pm by DHK

Death Knight wrote:
DHK wrote:
TheGoodDoctor wrote:If I get into my Hot Tub Time Machine I swear you're talking about Bargnani.

Bargnani has had 6 years to prove himself to be something more than a big who can score; he's 27.
Demar only has 3 seasons under his belt thus far and he came into the league very raw as opposed to bargs, and he's 23. I think a fair evaluation can be made in 1.5 seasons time but in my opinion, its still too early to make an overall judgment on DD


Waiting that long for Bargnani has become a mistake. So why should the Raptors make the same mistake again? Aren't they supposed to learn from their mistakes? 3 years is enough to evaluate a wing player my friend. Those handles and quickness aren't going to get any better.

And $8-10mil for a rotational player? WTF would the Raptors have left for their starters?

His handles and quickness isnt an issue and from another post; he doesnt possess tunnel vision; he's made strides on kicking the ball out at times when there's no openings leading to some good open shots for JC/Ross/Lowry. His issue at the moment is defense + shooting, both aspects which can be improved on with repetition/practice and experience. You don't absolutely need quickness to be a good defender in the league. Clearly, he's not a 1st option but if he has a teammate he can defer to where the opponent's defense is catered to stopping player X rather than Demar; he can be an effective player. the problem right now on the defensive end is that he's too aggressive on defense at times and he's clueless on positioning himself so he gets blown by countless times and gets called for those unnecessary fouls. He's not playing smart. On the offensive end, teams are just clogging up the lanes forcing away the drive and daring DD to beat them from the outside and sadly it's a good game plan because he has no jumper beyond the midrange to speak of.

The difference I see with Bargs is that we actually attempted to build around Bargs based on his potential, and flashes of what he's shown and he's made us unanimously hate him for never living up to it because of his laziness and poor conditioning/work ethic. Right now we're clearly not building around DD, he's being treated like a complementary piece to the core and that he should be.I still see a chance of him fitting and still see areas for improvement that he can work on over time especially given his work ethic. Call me foolish/delusional but i'd still give him 1.5 seasons and in the end I still see him as a starter type of player.

My friend, if you were to look at the salary situation; it's not Demar that's holding us back of anything; it's the unnecessary Kleiza signing, Bargs Fields, and Gray holding us back from making that one final splash for the final missing piece we sorely need (ie. franchise player).
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Post#36 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:06 am by DHK

Death Knight wrote:
DHK wrote:Before the extension I was heavily wondering if Charlotte would do a DD for Henderson swap; Henderson fits in what Casey wants to do better then Derozan does..but anyway...its still too early to call; I'd give him this season and the next to prove himself. Right now he's still on his rookie deal.


If you're going to give each drafted player 5 years, then you're going to be stuck where you are for a very long time. You gotta be able to evaluate a player within 2-3 years. 5 years is way too long, especially for guards/wing player who are much easier to guage early in their careers. Bigs take longer to develop depending on how raw they are to begin with, but smalls usually show their true colors very early on. You're gonna wait 5 years? Then what? another 5 years?

It's not. Really. Demar is entering his fourth season right now and you aren't patient enough to wait one more season?
Look, when he was drafted we were all over him because of his potential; however it seems like he didnt fully live up to it. clearly he's not a superstar or even a perennial all star player in the making. Even Demar's biggest supporters have to admit that. That doesnt mean he can be a solid player in the NBA. He was picked as a freshman...he came in raw; with little seasoning and it wasn't like he came in NBA prepared and what you saw was what you're going to get for years to come.

I'm looking at past drafts and players like Larry Hughes, Richard Hamilton (both solid SGs at one point in their careers); they'd had atrocious 3-4 years in the league. In Hughes' case it took him 7 seasons before he finally figured it out. Richard Hamilton was an atrocious defender as a Wizard; his 3 point shot was brutal and all he had was a midrange game with little handles but then off he goes to Detroit and all of a sudden he's a world class defender in his fifth season, and by his 7th, one of the best SGs in the conference. Patience. It's hard given the amount of losing and the amount of shots he's missing in crunch time, but I'd give him a little bit of a leash before finally giving him away to another team for unknown assets
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Post#37 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:08 am by Death Knight

Handles and quickness is not an issue? Especially the quickness part...............................both ends of the floor, not just defense.

DHK wrote:He's not a scrub though, that's an exaggeration. And if you are serious about that comment; he's already proven he's not one and at the very least a rotational player.


You said a rotational player. How is a $10mil rotational player not holding us back? Like I said, what money is left to give to real starters? No **** we need a franchise player. But that's not enough. we needs stars to go along with the franchise player. There are currently 0 stars on the team. Lowry is the cloest player to that and the coaching staff doesn't even trust him to give him the keys to the team!!!
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Post#38 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:09 am by fredericklove

I'll post this again just to rub it in our face.

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Post#39 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:10 am by Dr Octagon

fredericklove wrote:I'll post this again just to rub it in our face.

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Post#40 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:14 am by Ackshun

we should have sent him home for Eric Bledsoe when we had the chance.

Colangelo was bent on locking up assets that he had to act by the deadline apparently. If you get a chance to bring in Gay or Granger and somehow send his contract back, you don't even think twice.
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Post#41 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:17 am by DHK

Death Knight wrote:Handles and quickness is not an issue? Especially the quickness part...............................both ends of the floor, not just defense.

DHK wrote:He's not a scrub though, that's an exaggeration. And if you are serious about that comment; he's already proven he's not one and at the very least a rotational player.


You said a rotational player. How is a $10mil rotational player not holding us back? Like I said, what money is left to give to real starters? No **** we need a franchise player. But that's not enough. we needs stars to go along with the franchise player. There are currently 0 stars on the team. Lowry is the cloest player to that and the coaching staff doesn't even trust him to give him the keys to the team!!!

No, I think there's a misunderstanding. or my poor grammar at work again. I've stated that he's no way a scrub because at worst; he's a rotational player. I believe he's more than that and a starter calibre player. In the end I see someone who will be overpaid by minimally given his contract. We don't have stars right now because our greatest assets on the team is a rookie (Val) who may or may not be a star at one point in his career. Lowry if he figures it out can also become a potential star. As much as it is a superstar league; we dont necessarily need multiple stars to get over to the top. Just one franchise player + great role players would be suffice and the great role players are all lined up. We don't have money to get substantial upg'rades but Demar is hardly the problem. The true problem lies in: KLeiza, Bargnani, Fields and Gray.
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Post#42 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:22 am by Death Knight

DHK wrote:
Death Knight wrote:
DHK wrote:Before the extension I was heavily wondering if Charlotte would do a DD for Henderson swap; Henderson fits in what Casey wants to do better then Derozan does..but anyway...its still too early to call; I'd give him this season and the next to prove himself. Right now he's still on his rookie deal.


If you're going to give each drafted player 5 years, then you're going to be stuck where you are for a very long time. You gotta be able to evaluate a player within 2-3 years. 5 years is way too long, especially for guards/wing player who are much easier to guage early in their careers. Bigs take longer to develop depending on how raw they are to begin with, but smalls usually show their true colors very early on. You're gonna wait 5 years? Then what? another 5 years?


It's not. Really. Demar is entering his fourth season right now and you aren't patient enough to wait one more season?
Look, when he was drafted we were all over him because of his potential; however it seems like he didnt fully live up to it. clearly he's not a superstar or even a perennial all star player in the making. Even Demar's biggest supporters have to admit that. That doesnt mean he can be a solid player in the NBA. He was picked as a freshman...he came in raw; with little seasoning and it wasn't like he came in NBA prepared and what you saw was what you're going to get for years to come.

I'm looking at past drafts and players like Larry Hughes, Richard Hamilton (both solid SGs at one point in their careers); they'd had atrocious 3-4 years in the league. In Hughes' case it took him 7 seasons before he finally figured it out. Richard Hamilton was an atrocious defender as a Wizard; his 3 point shot was brutal and all he had was a midrange game with little handles but then off he goes to Detroit and all of a sudden he's a world class defender in his fifth season, and by his 7th, one of the best SGs in the conference. Patience. It's hard given the amount of losing and the amount of shots he's missing in crunch time, but I'd give him a little bit of a leash before finally giving him away to another team for unknown assets


No player comes in the league prepared. But 3-4 years for me is enough time to see what a player can become and what a player can't become.

Larry Hughes? Richard Hamilton? Those guys were pretty consistent with who they were for the rest of their careers once they reached their 3rd-4th seasons son. Hughes was not an efficient player early on and never become one later on. Hamilton never had much of a 3pt shot his whole career. Midrange game off screens was what he was. Nothing really changed with them past their 3rd-4th year of development.
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Post#43 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:24 am by Death Knight

DHK wrote:
Death Knight wrote:Handles and quickness is not an issue? Especially the quickness part...............................both ends of the floor, not just defense.

DHK wrote:He's not a scrub though, that's an exaggeration. And if you are serious about that comment; he's already proven he's not one and at the very least a rotational player.


You said a rotational player. How is a $10mil rotational player not holding us back? Like I said, what money is left to give to real starters? No **** we need a franchise player. But that's not enough. we needs stars to go along with the franchise player. There are currently 0 stars on the team. Lowry is the cloest player to that and the coaching staff doesn't even trust him to give him the keys to the team!!!

No, I think there's a misunderstanding. or my poor grammar at work again. I've stated that he's no way a scrub because at worst; he's a rotational player. I believe he's more than that and a starter calibre player. In the end I see someone who will be overpaid by minimally given his contract. We don't have stars right now because our greatest assets on the team is a rookie (Val) who may or may not be a star at one point in his career. Lowry if he figures it out can also become a potential star. As much as it is a superstar league; we dont necessarily need multiple stars to get over to the top. Just one franchise player + great role players would be suffice and the great role players are all lined up. We don't have money to get substantial upg'rades but Demar is hardly the problem. The true problem lies in: KLeiza, Bargnani, Fields and Gray.


You are very optimistic. I guess I shouldn't waste my time with you anymore then. There is absolutely no way I can make you see it my way. Think whatever you want to think. It's within your right.
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Post#44 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:26 am by DatHomieYouHaTe

Death Knight wrote:
DHK wrote:
Death Knight wrote:[quote="DHK"]Before the extension I was heavily wondering if Charlotte would do a DD for Henderson swap; Henderson fits in what Casey wants to do better then Derozan does..but anyway...its still too early to call; I'd give him this season and the next to prove himself. Right now he's still on his rookie deal.


If you're going to give each drafted player 5 years, then you're going to be stuck where you are for a very long time. You gotta be able to evaluate a player within 2-3 years. 5 years is way too long, especially for guards/wing player who are much easier to guage early in their careers. Bigs take longer to develop depending on how raw they are to begin with, but smalls usually show their true colors very early on. You're gonna wait 5 years? Then what? another 5 years?


It's not. Really. Demar is entering his fourth season right now and you aren't patient enough to wait one more season?
Look, when he was drafted we were all over him because of his potential; however it seems like he didnt fully live up to it. clearly he's not a superstar or even a perennial all star player in the making. Even Demar's biggest supporters have to admit that. That doesnt mean he can be a solid player in the NBA. He was picked as a freshman...he came in raw; with little seasoning and it wasn't like he came in NBA prepared and what you saw was what you're going to get for years to come.

I'm looking at past drafts and players like Larry Hughes, Richard Hamilton (both solid SGs at one point in their careers); they'd had atrocious 3-4 years in the league. In Hughes' case it took him 7 seasons before he finally figured it out. Richard Hamilton was an atrocious defender as a Wizard; his 3 point shot was brutal and all he had was a midrange game with little handles but then off he goes to Detroit and all of a sudden he's a world class defender in his fifth season, and by his 7th, one of the best SGs in the conference. Patience. It's hard given the amount of losing and the amount of shots he's missing in crunch time, but I'd give him a little bit of a leash before finally giving him away to another team for unknown assets


No player comes in the league prepared. But 3-4 years for me is enough time to see what a player can become and what a player can't become.

Larry Hughes? Richard Hamilton? Those guys were pretty consistent with who they were for the rest of their careers once they reached their 3rd-4th seasons son. Hughes was not an efficient player early on and never become one later on. Hamilton never had much of a 3pt shot his whole career. Midrange game off screens was what he was. Nothing really changed with them past their 3rd-4th year of development.[/quote]


Hit it right on the head brotha.
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Post#45 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:38 am by DHK

Death Knight wrote:
DHK wrote:
Death Knight wrote:
If you're going to give each drafted player 5 years, then you're going to be stuck where you are for a very long time. You gotta be able to evaluate a player within 2-3 years. 5 years is way too long, especially for guards/wing player who are much easier to guage early in their careers. Bigs take longer to develop depending on how raw they are to begin with, but smalls usually show their true colors very early on. You're gonna wait 5 years? Then what? another 5 years?


It's not. Really. Demar is entering his fourth season right now and you aren't patient enough to wait one more season?
Look, when he was drafted we were all over him because of his potential; however it seems like he didnt fully live up to it. clearly he's not a superstar or even a perennial all star player in the making. Even Demar's biggest supporters have to admit that. That doesnt mean he can be a solid player in the NBA. He was picked as a freshman...he came in raw; with little seasoning and it wasn't like he came in NBA prepared and what you saw was what you're going to get for years to come.

I'm looking at past drafts and players like Larry Hughes, Richard Hamilton (both solid SGs at one point in their careers); they'd had atrocious 3-4 years in the league. In Hughes' case it took him 7 seasons before he finally figured it out. Richard Hamilton was an atrocious defender as a Wizard; his 3 point shot was brutal and all he had was a midrange game with little handles but then off he goes to Detroit and all of a sudden he's a world class defender in his fifth season, and by his 7th, one of the best SGs in the conference. Patience. It's hard given the amount of losing and the amount of shots he's missing in crunch time, but I'd give him a little bit of a leash before finally giving him away to another team for unknown assets


No player comes in the league prepared. But 3-4 years for me is enough time to see what a player can become and what a player can't become.

Larry Hughes? Richard Hamilton? Those guys were pretty consistent with who they were for the rest of their careers once they reached their 3rd-4th seasons son. Hughes was not an efficient player early on and never become one later on. Hamilton never had much of a 3pt shot his whole career. Midrange game off screens was what he was. Nothing really changed with them past their 3rd-4th year of development.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lri01.html
Hamilton did suddenly develop a dangerous 3pt shot later in his careers; stats dont lie and made absolute strides after his initial struggle with the Wizards from offensive and defensive point of view. He was trying to do too much on the wizards and he was the focal player opponents tried to shut down and thus he struggled mightily and was inefficient as we're seeing from Demar.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ela01.html
Hughes was wildly inconsistent his entire career yes but there was a small time frame 2-3 seasons where he just "clicked" in his 5th-7th seasons and he was quite efficient offensively although he was mediocre at best defensively. He's a player that Demar may become; a player highly touted but never lived up to his full potential that people initially had of him coming into the NBA.

The point of these two comparisons is to say there's hope for Demar and stating that there's good chance he ends up being a solid starter for a solid team and he's infact not a "scrub" as some people suggest here.
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Post#46 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:47 am by deeps6x

raptorfan416 wrote:raptor fans i tell you.. THE SAME THING WAS SAID ABOUT AMIR WHEN BC GAVE HIM THAT CONTRACT.. now who's saying anything about amir contract ? remember when people on here saying use the amnesty on amir ? raptor fans need to stop b#tching and crying after every loss. yes i know the losing is fustrating but my god after every damn time we lose a game it's 6 topics about a certain player being over paid or how crap that player is.. nobody says nothing when the team is winning, but the moment we loose a game all of a sudden it's this player is garbage, he can't do this he can't do that, the next time that same player goes on a run like jose did it's resign him, he's beast :-? face facts here most of the teams in the league got overpaid players on their roster... when the team is winning nobody is saying nothing but once the team loses a game it's who's on copping block now, if it's not brags its demar, if it's not demar its lowry, if it's not lowry its jose, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP THE F*CKING BITCHING,THE CRYING AND CALLING OUT RANDOM PLAYERS AFTER EVERY LOST.. this team on a whole is an inconsistent team. name one consistent player on this team ? i rest my case.


The doude who posted right before you is saying that about Amir. I totally disagree. Amir IS worth that contract. I will also say that I also believed he was overpaid when he got it. I'm hoping DD keeps improving and starts to earn his extension next season. He has looked good against the crap teams this year, but very average against playoff teams.

The one consistent theme after all of the games, wins or losses, has been the BS refereeing. Stats prove it up as well with the Raptors being the most penalized team in the league by a healthy margin. This bias must stop. Bring in an unlimited challenge flag next season. We need a 'fairness' rule change like they have in the NFL. There, the refs know they can't get away with this crap because they can be challenged and embarrassed on National TV. Here, we just have a bunch of sap announcers making excuses for the refs. Call them out when they blow a call Devlin!
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Post#47 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:00 am by Death Knight

DHK wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lri01.html
Hamilton did suddenly develop a dangerous 3pt shot later in his careers; stats dont lie and made absolute strides after his initial struggle with the Wizards from offensive and defensive point of view. He was trying to do too much on the wizards and he was the focal player opponents tried to shut down and thus he struggled mightily and was inefficient as we're seeing from Demar.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ela01.html
Hughes was wildly inconsistent his entire career yes but there was a small time frame 2-3 seasons where he just "clicked" in his 5th-7th seasons and he was quite efficient offensively although he was mediocre at best defensively. He's a player that Demar may become; a player highly touted but never lived up to his full potential that people initially had of him coming into the NBA.

The point of these two comparisons is to say there's hope for Demar and stating that there's good chance he ends up being a solid starter for a solid team and he's infact not a "scrub" as some people suggest here.


You're right, stats don't lie. Look at the stats then. They don't support your points at all.

Hamilton was wildly inconsistenty with hsi 3pt shot. Quite frankly he never took enough and made enough to qualify. But even if he did, look at those inconsistent percentages!

Hamilton 3pt shooting, rookie - current.
36.4%
27.4%
38.1%
26.9%
26.5%
30.5%
45.8%
34.1%
44.0%
36.8%
29.7%
38.2%
37.0%
40.7%

Do those look like consistent 3pt shooting to you? How do you go from 45.8% to 34.1% the next, and then 44%, only to go back down to 36.8%, eventually 29.6%, etc. And as a matter of fact if you pay more attention, Hamilton is a career 34.9% 3pt shooter. He was already shooting above his career average in his 1st year at 36.4%. He dropped his 2nd year, but went up again in his 3rd year, etc....nothing really changed with his 3pt shot for much of his career. There was no real development in it. He was an inconsistent 3pt shooter.

Hughes. So you're hoping for 2-3 year good years from DeRozan in a potentially 12-15+ year career? That's good enough for you?

EDIT: sorry for the edits. I keep having to go back on punctuations. Whatever.............if there's anymore, I'm just going to leave. You should get the point anyways.
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Post#48 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:01 am by Wo1verine

The deal was horrible then and is still horrible now..
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Post#49 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:02 am by Throwback24

Someone should bump the extension thread and you'll see a vocal minority that were VERY adament against the extension, me included.

BC should be fired for giving this non-starter an extension. He isn't worth more than the MLE.
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Post#50 Re: Derozan Extension: What Were They Thinkin
Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:06 am by ROBBS

Derozan seems like a system guy. Let's throw some money at Jerry Sloan.
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