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What is wrong with Derozan?

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Post#61 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:13 pm by MEDIC

Greg Stink wrote:Two reasons:

1) It's not worth the trouble to spoon-feed him, so we're not doing it anymore.

He still can't create anything off the bounce, which was foreseeable, and it's not worth running a 10-second play which takes another 10 seconds for our guys to arrange (when Jose gets accused of pounding) for an ok 2pt jump shooter who struggles to get separation or a rim-cut for a guy who doesn't know how to get calls or finish through contact if he manages to find it before it's too late. Demar's not getting calls is all on him.

And forget about changing personnel, we don't even have enough shooters or any stretch bigs to augment an ok post game which can be controlled by a bigger/smarter defender or nullified by a 2nd one because he gets stripped so easily and he can't pass. We had AB or were going tiny when he was putting up numbers, throwing out LOLK, Peaches, popping Amir, anything to space for him and it clearly wasn't worth it.

2) His awareness and off-ball work is still brutal.

As bad as it was as a rookie. How is he not opportunistic, at all? He never, ever catches his cover looking in the other direction and dives to the rim for a rebound or pass and he's left alone A LOT. Fields had done that more this season than Demar has in his entire career- Jose looks for that and feeds anybody alone underneath but Demar is dreaming, alone, outside. He gets nothing for himself without a play. He hasn't even improved his off-ball work when it IS his play. Defenders can tell it's his play because he's moving, and it's probably as easy to lock/trail Demar as it would be Aaron Gray. In his first season, it was, 'ok, he'll get it, then he'll be a dangerous off-ball player'. He hasn't gotten anything, and he's not.

In short, he's been working on the wrong things, trying to Kobefy his game, while he should have been perfecting his off-ball work and finishing. We all knew years ago that he was never going to be an iso player but he's the last to know.


Can't say I disagree with this. However......he can still be an iso player. Just not in the traditional sense of a SG. He'll get his iso attempts off post ups & if he can finally find that 3 point shot.....it may help in other areas.

I'm not going to turn my back on Demar. He (with the help of the coaching staff) just needs to get out of this funk. I think he's a player that will continue to get better year to year, but you won't see a substantial jump. Just slow & steady improvement.
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Post#62 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:36 pm by GreatWhiteStiff

Are we talking about the same derozan who was considered like the worst player in the league by wages of wins last year? Cant be, we paid this one 10 million. Anyways my guess is nothing is wrong with him.

That said I'd like to see what he could do in an up and down offense with a good point guard, and/or good shooters/scorers surrounding him.

Also this could easily be a case of sample size, where realgmers make a bunch of erroneous conclusions about a struggling player, only to see the same guy go on a hot streak or play much better in the near future.
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Post#63 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:39 pm by Big Shot

MEDIC wrote:
Big Shot wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
Has BC ever paid someone based on "potential" & had it work out (where you have a value contract down the road)?


Amir


You think Amir is a "value contract" (by that I mean earning less than market value)?



I know where you're coming from. But you've to also consider that the value would only come with his play and impact on the team. At this point, I do think Amir has made a great contribution to the team. You may argue that his impact wouldn't have been that much if Raps had had a star player or two. We can't prove it either way. Until then, we'll see.
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Post#64 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:39 pm by Weems

Lack of talent. The expectations you continually place on a guard who can't shoot or dribble and who doesn't have the requisite athleticism (e.g. quickness) and BBIQ is what's wrong. How you perceive him as a player with potential is what's wrong. He's a really untalented and really flawed player. No matter how hard he tries, which is quite hard, he'll never become an average SG.
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Post#65 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:47 pm by GreatWhiteStiff

I should also point out realgmers also (possibly) overrated this guy based on their hopes and a limited sample size of 30 games where derozan played pretty well, probably inventing a bunch of hypothetical reasons of why he was "new and improved".
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Post#66 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:06 pm by pkiskool

vexen wrote:IMHO Alan Anderson is a much better player, it's not even close. His head fakes are honestly some of the best in the league, he even killed kobe a few times off the drive, you almost never see that. He's a true triple threat and plays pretty good D and to top it off his contract is a total steal. I think one of the problems is everyone is seeing what AA can do then compares that to what DD is doing.

A few occasions where AA's are better than DD's... if you know what I'm sayin'
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Post#67 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:38 pm by forrestek

youreachiteach wrote:People are clearly shading to Demar's side and not letting him get a lane to the hoop. We tried letting him force the play and all he did was turn it over because the d is focusing on him.

Now, what's happening is Calderon is being made into the shooter--and he is taking the bull by the horns and punishing people for playing off. This is the price you pay for playing the box and one on Demar. Why do you think we've gotten off to these great leads? Because Toronto is f*king up the opposing coach's game plan of denying Demar the lane or the post-up against their **** undersized or lousy defensive twos. They don't expect Caldy to be aggressive, and the patience we play with requires teams to play strong defense for almost the entire shot clock.

It's hard to trap Calderon--if you trap him you are actually facilitating the game he WANTS to play (the roll man or the cutter is wide open) and if you get tight or switch a big (although he's no speed demon) he can get by his man and then it's lights out again because he's in the middle of the floor--the triple threat position.

It's true that, in previous years, Caldy's insistence on holding the ball and not shooting would be annihilated by hard traps--but that is rarely the case this year. He is relentless in pursuing the shot.

The negative byproduct of this is that...Calderon is not really a scorer, although he is an excellent shooter. On top of that, Demar is frozen out, and he is a rhythm shooter who needs more touches to stay "hot"--much like other scorers. When the scores get tight and the jumpers stop falling, the offense gets stagnant, and Calderon and Anderson's ability to run offense becomes far too necessary.


Very intelligent post!

Yes DD has limitation, however the starting line-up where the only scorer is Demar makes it very easy for the opposing team to key on him. Jose has been doing a good job of looking for his shot, however the nights he is not on the offense is ugly.

The Raps desperately need shooting production from the 3 spot in the starting line-up. Or Lowry has to start...failing that when Bargs comes back he will be needed to play that role (yes yes even if he sucks).
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Post#68 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:06 pm by VinBaker6

Lowry really opens up the game for DD when he is aggressive. Thats part of the reason he was ballin earlier. I just think there is a better scouting report on him. He'll figure it out though, he's a hard worker. Every player has downs during a season. I'm not worried about DD.

Great post "youreachiteach".
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Post#69 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:09 pm by V][/V§@Ñ!TÝ

these rants are super similar to that of Boston's rant on Jeff Green: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1227110

KG05-21 wrote:The problem w Jeff Green is that if he's not scoring, then there is very little impact to the game.

If he was a great position defender, he could be used as the C's best perimeter defender w size & length; but, he is not.
If he was a great rebounder, he would be in the lineup when KG leaves to give the C's a great chance of playing one shot and out; but, he's not.
If he was a peerless perimeter threat, he could be used in the lineup to give spacing when KG/Collins/Bass are on the floor; but, he's not.
If he was an athletic freak, where on the break Rondo could just give it to him at any point knowing that he'll come away with a foul or highlight, that would be great for easy baskets; but he's not.
If he was a playmaker, he could be the C's 3rd playmaker [Rondo, Pierce] to give his teammates easy scoring opportunities; but he's not.

I remember someone mentioning Marvin Williams, then the Atlanta Hawks lottery pick over Chris Paul, as similar to Jeff Green.

He's capable of doing any of these things, on occassion, but he can't sustain it for any length.

Jeff Green's biggest problem right now is that with all the athleticism, physical gifts, shooting range, and adequate ball handling skills; he, just doesn't have a gameplan of how to use his talents.

And worse yet, the Celtics don't know what they want from him either. They're asking him to be a star, when they should simplify the game for him.

They should just tell him, to be the first guy down the court in transition on the break - to speed up the tempo of the game. If he can do that in his limited time on the floor at least it will pressure the opposing team to defend him in the open court.

As it is right now, Jeff Green's game is non-descript.

He's the only player on the team that I don't know what production to expect in any given game. Every player on the team has a definitive role [with the core guys taking on multiple responsibilities]. Jeff Green has to figure out how he can help the Celtics without scoring. Maybe play tenacious perimeter defense. Maybe try to have a dominating presence on the glass. Maybe learning to cut, move without the ball to create spacing. Maybe run full sprints on breaks so that the Celtics appear athletic - though they are not.

Right now, the elephant in the room is that: Jeff Green is a great human being, nice guy; but...he hasn't established himself as what he is on the court.

The Jeff Green supporters & critics breakdown simply to this: Critics that wonder If he will ever put it all together? Supporters that believe WHEN he get it, it'll be amazing.

I'm of the former. But wouldn't mind being totally wrong on this.
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Post#70 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:03 pm by wadecountyordie

Neutral 123 wrote:
TooHood wrote:Spacing eh? thats it? i guess everyone here who said spacing really wants Andrea back loool jk

Andrea provides 'spacing'...

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That's probably the face Andrea made the first time he looked @ the scoreboard and saw he had 10 rebounds. :lol:
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Post#71 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:25 pm by Indeed

V][/V§@Ñ!TÝ wrote:these rants are super similar to that of Boston's rant on Jeff Green: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1227110

KG05-21 wrote:The problem w Jeff Green is that if he's not scoring, then there is very little impact to the game.

If he was a great position defender, he could be used as the C's best perimeter defender w size & length; but, he is not.
If he was a great rebounder, he would be in the lineup when KG leaves to give the C's a great chance of playing one shot and out; but, he's not.
If he was a peerless perimeter threat, he could be used in the lineup to give spacing when KG/Collins/Bass are on the floor; but, he's not.
If he was an athletic freak, where on the break Rondo could just give it to him at any point knowing that he'll come away with a foul or highlight, that would be great for easy baskets; but he's not.
If he was a playmaker, he could be the C's 3rd playmaker [Rondo, Pierce] to give his teammates easy scoring opportunities; but he's not.

I remember someone mentioning Marvin Williams, then the Atlanta Hawks lottery pick over Chris Paul, as similar to Jeff Green.

He's capable of doing any of these things, on occassion, but he can't sustain it for any length.

Jeff Green's biggest problem right now is that with all the athleticism, physical gifts, shooting range, and adequate ball handling skills; he, just doesn't have a gameplan of how to use his talents.

And worse yet, the Celtics don't know what they want from him either. They're asking him to be a star, when they should simplify the game for him.

They should just tell him, to be the first guy down the court in transition on the break - to speed up the tempo of the game. If he can do that in his limited time on the floor at least it will pressure the opposing team to defend him in the open court.

As it is right now, Jeff Green's game is non-descript.

He's the only player on the team that I don't know what production to expect in any given game. Every player on the team has a definitive role [with the core guys taking on multiple responsibilities]. Jeff Green has to figure out how he can help the Celtics without scoring. Maybe play tenacious perimeter defense. Maybe try to have a dominating presence on the glass. Maybe learning to cut, move without the ball to create spacing. Maybe run full sprints on breaks so that the Celtics appear athletic - though they are not.

Right now, the elephant in the room is that: Jeff Green is a great human being, nice guy; but...he hasn't established himself as what he is on the court.

The Jeff Green supporters & critics breakdown simply to this: Critics that wonder If he will ever put it all together? Supporters that believe WHEN he get it, it'll be amazing.

I'm of the former. But wouldn't mind being totally wrong on this.


Very interesting to see raw talent players (including Bargnani) lacked the understanding of a winning game. Wonder would people do DeRozan for Green?
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Post#72 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:40 pm by Chaos Engine

Choker wrote:
roon wrote:I really thought his post game was a strength of his. That was one way he could actually create a shot for himself.. Too bad he completely abandoned it.


Not his fault entirely. He's actually improved his post game throughout the season. Before he was horrendously bad passing it out of the post, now he's at least competent. We're not going to him down there because we don't have the necessary shooters to provide him the spacing he needs.

Ridiculous. Demar is not good enough to build an offense around him. You do that for Lebron, for Dwight. You give them shooters and floor spacers to maximize their games. You don't do that for Demar Derozan.

Why would we ever build around a SG that can't shoot, handle the ball or create for others? Because he can post up Randy Foye and other small SGs? On top of his offensive limitations, he is a TERRIBLE defender. He literally let Monta Ellis blow by him at will during the 4th quarter vs the Bucks.

Demar fanboys remind me so much of Bargnani fanboys. They too will eventually realize Demar is who he is, a mediocre player.
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Post#73 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:44 pm by Basketball_Jones

He's an isolation scorer that kind of sucks at it. I mean, he was going pretty decently early in the season so maybe there's hope. But likely, it's just the numbers regressing back to what he normally averages.
T-Ross the Boss wrote:Still scratching my head @ Aaron Gray 20 minutes

When he got the ball he was horrified, like someone shot his family.
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Post#74 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:49 pm by Death Knight

Chaos Engine wrote:
Choker wrote:
roon wrote:I really thought his post game was a strength of his. That was one way he could actually create a shot for himself.. Too bad he completely abandoned it.


Not his fault entirely. He's actually improved his post game throughout the season. Before he was horrendously bad passing it out of the post, now he's at least competent. We're not going to him down there because we don't have the necessary shooters to provide him the spacing he needs.

Ridiculous. Demar is not good enough to build an offense around him. You do that for Lebron, for Dwight. You give them shooters and floor spacers to maximize their games. You don't do that for Demar Derozan.

Why would we ever build around a SG that can't shoot, handle the ball or create for others? Because he can post up Randy Foye and other small SGs? On top of his offensive limitations, he is a TERRIBLE defender. He literally let Monta Ellis blow by him at will during the 4th quarter vs the Bucks.

Demar fanboys remind me so much of Bargnani fanboys. They too will eventually realize Demar is who he is, a mediocre player.


If Dre and DeRoz Switched bodies, what would happen? :lol:
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Post#75 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:26 pm by Dr Positivity

Big Shot wrote:
MEDIC wrote:
Has BC ever paid someone based on "potential" & had it work out (where you have a value contract down the road)?


Amir


Amir was excellent his first season with the Raps and had most of what he provides now. He's strong enough to guard centers now and he has that crappy midrange shot, but other than that I would say we paid Amir for what he had already shown he can provide
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Post#76 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:12 pm by fatal9

Nothing is wrong with him, he's the same useless scrub he has always been. When even your "good" games can at best be described as mediocre, you're a pretty terrible player. There's a lot of revisionist history going on in this thread with people acting like he was playing on some high level for most of the year...just stop, stop it. And also stop making excuses and blaming coaches/other players/system, his skill-set is garbage, his athleticism is overrated and his bball IQ is lacking. He has improved and polished his skills a bit more, but the "polished turd is still a turd" concept applies here. As a fan of the game, watching this dude makes my eyes bleed.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be harsh for no reason, this is just one of the most useless big minute players I've ever seen (even on bad teams), and it's frustrating some people still can't see what a hollow game he really has. This is just a lucky scrub who had enough flash in his game to sell people on his "potential", who gets big minutes and enough plays designed for him in the offense because he plays under an absolute moron of a GM who gets too attached to his draft picks.
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Post#77 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:09 pm by Dr Positivity

fatal9 wrote:Nothing is wrong with him, he's the same useless scrub he has always been. When even your "good" games can at best be described as mediocre, you're a pretty terrible player. There's a lot of revisionist history going on in this thread with people acting like he was playing on some high level for most of the year...just stop, stop it. And also stop making excuses and blaming coaches/other players/system, his skill-set is garbage, his athleticism is overrated and his bball IQ is lacking. He has improved and polished his skills a bit more, but the "polished turd is still a turd" concept applies here. As a fan of the game, watching this dude makes my eyes bleed.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be harsh for no reason, this is just one of the most useless big minute players I've ever seen (even on bad teams), and it's frustrating some people still can't see what a hollow game he really has. This is just a lucky scrub who had enough flash in his game to sell people on his "potential", who gets big minutes and enough plays designed for him in the offense because he plays under an absolute moron of a GM who gets too attached to his draft picks.


I feel like it hasn't sunk in for people yet that this guy isn't a starting caliber SG whatsoever. They're acting like he's underwhelming because he's an average starting 2. No, he'd be average for BACKUP 2s. Remove the hype and he's a guy who should be getting 15-20 minutes and putting up a fairly useless .51 TS% 9 points per game.
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Post#78 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:10 pm by JunkYardSubs

Yeah hes a bench scorer who only got paid because he was given the green light on our awful team
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Post#79 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:11 am by SkywalkerAC

Again, he usually comes on strong in the 2nd half. Really hope he does.
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Post#80 Re: What is wrong with Derozan?
Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:20 am by OhMyBosh

Article about the DeMar's slump.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/2013/01/22/demar_derozan_toronto_raptors_mcneill/
Where things start to get scary is when you realize that nearly 75 per cent of DeRozan's field goal attempts are jump shots but he is only making 38 per cent of those (169-440). So, in essence, he's a shooting guard that has struggled to shoot this season.


The other thing that is worrisome is that DeRozan is able to start games strong in the first quarter (he shoots 49.5 per cent from the field) but in the fourth quarter he cools down considerably (31 per cent) once opposing defenses figure out that his jumper is shaky so they decided to take away his ability to penetrate or dunk.

Also, along those lines, he only shoots 35 per cent from the field in the final three minutes of a quarter. So, in essence, when it comes close to resembling clutch time DeRozan shrinks in a big way.


DeMar is simply not a good basketball player. We need to stop sacrificing our future to let clowns like DeMar and Bargnani get consistent minutes when both players have shown zero improvement in the last 2 years despite heavy minutes.

Thankfully to an injury to Bargnani, we can finally see Ed Davis play and actually show significant signs of development. I think it's time to give Ross the benefit of consistent minutes without consequence. At least there's still a question mark as to whether or not he'll be a good player. The question mark for DeMar has long been gone. He is the same player that stepped on the court after his rookie season.
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