yardbarker

NCAA Wiretap Headlines

MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz escape Lux tax

Moderators: tsherkin, Yuri Vaultin, FluLikeSymptoms, Morris_Shatford, Rhettmatic, Alfred, Undefeated, DG88, itbobby007

Post#101 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:22 am by Felixano

Wrote an article about my opinion on this trade, check it out if you get a chance

http://gamedayglory.blogspot.ca/2013/01 ... ngton.html
Felixano
Banned User
Posts: 630
And1: 76
Joined: Jul 2, 2012
Top

Post#102 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:45 am by YogiStewart

PBI wrote:This is what rebuilding looks like, friends.

the Cavs should know. they've been doing it for...what, now...3+ years? and look at the standings!
Oogla Carr: MLSE Employee of the Year
YogiStewart
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
User avatar
Posts: 20,496
And1: 1,050
Joined: Aug 8, 2007
Location: Its ALL about Location, Location, Location!
Top

Post#103 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:30 am by team edward

YogiStewart wrote:
PBI wrote:This is what rebuilding looks like, friends.

the Cavs should know. they've been doing it for...what, now...3+ years? and look at the standings!
Exactly. Rebuilding means staying terrible for as long as possible. But while you stay terrible, you are curling up like a cobra, and then one season your picks have all become all-stars and you land a big free-agent and you STRIKE! That's how it works every time.
Image
team edward
Starter
Posts: 2,075
And1: 430
Joined: Jul 27, 2010
Top

Post#104 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:39 am by Viatical

Evaluating this trade on the players' merits misses the point. It's a salary dump that gives Memphis the option of retaining their core while keeping the repeater taxpayer penalties out of the equation. None of the players involved in the trade are consequential or important to either team. Not even whomever the pick turns into, in an historically bad draft. Well done Memphis. *claps*
Viatical
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 4,694
And1: 347
Joined: Dec 7, 2012
Top

Post#105 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:48 am by sisibilio

team edward wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:
PBI wrote:This is what rebuilding looks like, friends.

the Cavs should know. they've been doing it for...what, now...3+ years? and look at the standings!
Exactly. Rebuilding means staying terrible for as long as possible. But while you stay terrible, you are curling up like a cobra, and then one season your picks have all become all-stars and you land a big free-agent and you STRIKE! That's how it works every time.

That's how it works or, much more frequently, doesn't work.
Other than OKC, the Cavs of the LeBron era and maybe Orlando with Dwight, what other elite team since 1999 have been built though a "proper" rebuild?
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
@MikePradaSBN
sisibilio
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,417
And1: 335
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Top

Post#106 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:11 am by ATLTimekeeper

Viatical wrote:Evaluating this trade on the players' merits misses the point. It's a salary dump that gives Memphis the option of retaining their core while keeping the repeater taxpayer penalties out of the equation. None of the players involved in the trade are consequential or important to either team. Not even whomever the pick turns into, in an historically bad draft. Well done Memphis. *claps*


You missed the pick protection. It's for 2015 at the earliest and is lotto guaranteed. Terrible for Memphis no matter how you slice it. And Memphis will still have tax issues going forward with no ability to retain Tony Allen. They basically traded a lotto pick just to avoid the tax this year.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 12,423
And1: 1,446
Joined: Apr 28, 2008
Top

Post#107 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:11 am by Viatical

I have no idea what is meant by "proper" rebuild, since the most successful teams were mediocre to bad for seasons on end, and used a hybrid approach of leaning on veteran free agents while waiting for their draft prospects to work out. A lot also depends on how savvy an NBA GM can be in assembling star talent as well. Good examples: The Boston Celtics, who were the definition of mediocre dating back to the Paul Pierce / Antoine Walker years before Rondo started to get good and the old "Big 3" was assembled through free agency. Houston, who assembled a theoretical championship core through careful drafting and savvy trades, had the whole thing destroyed with career-ending injuries, and then reassembled into a probable playoff team based around a new star just 2-3 years later, flipping those old assets in the process.

There are good ways of doing this and then there are bad ways. And then there are very bad ways.
Viatical
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 4,694
And1: 347
Joined: Dec 7, 2012
Top

Post#108 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:16 am by Viatical

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Viatical wrote:Evaluating this trade on the players' merits misses the point. It's a salary dump that gives Memphis the option of retaining their core while keeping the repeater taxpayer penalties out of the equation. None of the players involved in the trade are consequential or important to either team. Not even whomever the pick turns into, in an historically bad draft. Well done Memphis. *claps*


You missed the pick protection. It's for 2015 at the earliest and is lotto guaranteed. Terrible for Memphis no matter how you slice it. And Memphis will still have tax issues going forward with no ability to retain Tony Allen. They basically traded a lotto pick just to avoid the tax this year.


No no, I saw the protections on the pick. I just sincerely believe these next two draft classes will be THAT bad. Most of those players will be completely inconsequential. Blame it on the one and done system, the decline of good collegiate basketball competition, the emphasis on AAU ball over fundamentals--whatever. Point being, most of the players in the 2013 class will be miserable replacement-level guys. But that is for a separate discussion.

This also relates back to all the baffling grousing over the Kyle Lowry pick situation. If you're going to incentivize another team with draft picks, this would be the draft to do it in. But that too is for a separate discussion.

Again, well done Memphis.
Viatical
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 4,694
And1: 347
Joined: Dec 7, 2012
Top

Post#109 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:22 am by ATLTimekeeper

Viatical wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Viatical wrote:Evaluating this trade on the players' merits misses the point. It's a salary dump that gives Memphis the option of retaining their core while keeping the repeater taxpayer penalties out of the equation. None of the players involved in the trade are consequential or important to either team. Not even whomever the pick turns into, in an historically bad draft. Well done Memphis. *claps*


You missed the pick protection. It's for 2015 at the earliest and is lotto guaranteed. Terrible for Memphis no matter how you slice it. And Memphis will still have tax issues going forward with no ability to retain Tony Allen. They basically traded a lotto pick just to avoid the tax this year.


No no, I saw the protections on the pick. I just sincerely believe these next two draft classes will be THAT bad. Most of those players will be completely inconsequential. Blame it on the one and done system, the decline of good collegiate basketball competition, the emphasis on AAU ball over fundamentals--whatever. Point being, most of the players in the 2013 class will be miserable replacement-level guys. But that is for a separate discussion.

This also relates back to all the baffling grousing over the Kyle Lowry pick situation. If you're going to incentivize another team with draft picks, this would be the draft to do it in. But that too is for a separate discussion.

Again, well done Memphis.


So then you just missed the "2015 at the earliest" part.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 12,423
And1: 1,446
Joined: Apr 28, 2008
Top

Post#110 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:28 am by YogiStewart

team edward wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:
PBI wrote:This is what rebuilding looks like, friends.

the Cavs should know. they've been doing it for...what, now...3+ years? and look at the standings!
Exactly. Rebuilding means staying terrible for as long as possible. But while you stay terrible, you are curling up like a cobra, and then one season your picks have all become all-stars and you land a big free-agent and you STRIKE! That's how it works every time.


yep. works like that every time. still waiting for the Bobcat snake to strike. same with the Wizards.
Oogla Carr: MLSE Employee of the Year
YogiStewart
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
User avatar
Posts: 20,496
And1: 1,050
Joined: Aug 8, 2007
Location: Its ALL about Location, Location, Location!
Top

Post#111 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:39 am by dagger

YogiStewart wrote:yep. works like that every time. still waiting for the Bobcat snake to strike. same with the Wizards.


It took Golden State over a decade to get to where they are today - young, exciting, and emerging as a possible contender. They did it without a top 5 pick, too. I think Washington at one point - until Arenas arrived - had missed the playoffs for 22 years.

"Rebuilding means staying terrible for as long as possible." What a hideous idea, like alienating a generation from watching the sport. It's like clubbing interest in basketball like a baby seal.
For sports oriented Twitter content, follow @accfanto
dagger




RealGM
User avatar
Posts: 31,910
And1: 3,222
Joined: Aug 18, 2002
Top

Post#112 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 am by sisibilio

Viatical wrote:I have no idea what is meant by "proper" rebuild

Trading any decent "veteran" (in the raps case anyone but Valanciunas and Ross) you have for picks and raw prospects. That's what you would imply reading this board.
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
@MikePradaSBN
sisibilio
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,417
And1: 335
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Top

Post#113 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:42 am by ATLTimekeeper

The Cavs have been rebuilding since LeBron left and are only a few games worse than we are. We have the added luxury of a full cap, a future pick already traded and two extra lotto picks on our team because we've actually missed the playoffs four years in a row. Essentially, we have five years worth of lotto talent on our team. For all that, we're just a few games ahead of Cleveland with no future firsts owed and surefire all-star talent. There's no perfect roadmap to build a team, but the Cavs have given themselves plenty of chances to build a champion down the road. There's no guarantee this will work, but at the same time they've given their fans a joy to watch in Irving and they've kept the salary commitments to a minimum.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 12,423
And1: 1,446
Joined: Apr 28, 2008
Top

Post#114 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:44 am by Double Helix

YogiStewart wrote:yep. works like that every time. still waiting for the Bobcat snake to strike. same with the Wizards.


:laugh:

People also seem to forget about the situations where a team lands a ROY candidate that lifts the team up before they're ready and brings them onto the treadmill. The only way you can hit it out of the park is if your superstar in the making is a teenager, and isn't yet ready to help win, or gets hurt. Otherwise, if you land truly franchise altering talent that's contributing right away you may not be able to land the other pieces through the draft. You might already be on the treadmill, or at least far enough away from the high lotto that you will then have to rely soley on trades and/or free agency.

Imagine if Portland didn't have Batum already and just had Lillard this year rising up along with Aldridge. They'd be good enough to not be a bottom 5 team but not good enough to attempt all the finishing tweaks to the roster via free agency or trade. They'd be on the path to the threadmill.

Rebuilding can change fast if you land a rookie like Lillard or Vince Carter that lifts you up right away.
Image
Double Helix





Retired Mod
Retired Mod
User avatar
Posts: 17,876
And1: 6,867
Joined: Jun 25, 2002
Top

Post#115 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:50 am by sisibilio

I'm not saying Colangelo has done a good job BTW. For instance giving away flexibility to get mediocre players like Fields unless you are ready to contend is never a good idea.
If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
@MikePradaSBN
sisibilio
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,417
And1: 335
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Top

Post#116 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:02 pm by Viatical

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
So then you just missed the "2015 at the earliest" part.


There's no use being snide about it, since the pick details weren't released until later. And gosh, now I know more than I did when news of the trade broke!!!111 What are you even being snide and Captain Corrections over anyway? Hmm let's see here:

"Details on pick: Has to fall between 6-14 to change hands in 2015 or 2016.Top 5 protection in 2017 or 2018."

6-14 range? You're seriously busting balls because you think Memphis will not be in the playoffs and will therefore have a lotto pick in 2 years? You mean when they'll still have Randolph / Conley / Gasol on their payroll with probable cap room to add another star that previous off-season? Come on. Give that organization more credit than that. There ARE small market teams out there that aren't run like a war crime against basketball fans, you know. If anything, the protections are timed masterfully now, even better than I thought, because the more meaningful top-5 protections trigger right around the time Memphis would possibly be bad enough for the pick to even matter, when those deals have all expired. The realistic worst case scenario for the Grizzlies is they forfeit a (completely inconsequential) mid to late rounder in 2017 to an organization too historically dumb to pick well beyond consensus #1s, and all so that Memphis can go ahead and compete to try to win a championship for the next 3 seasons? Sign me up! I could show you statistics compiled by others that demonstrate how incredibly unlikely it is for any player outside of the top 5 range to develop into a star, but I doubt you're interested in that over this laughable narrative that Memphis somehow sold the farm. So instead, let me just shed a single, jaded tear for a 19th overall pick in 2017, why don't I. Again, well done, Memphis!
Viatical
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 4,694
And1: 347
Joined: Dec 7, 2012
Top

Post#117 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:07 pm by Double Helix

I think the most practical "tank strategy" is realizing you're in 1 of 4 phases and then taking the appropriate next step.

The first phase is - Your team is old, not improving, and you haven't been to the lotto for a couple seasons. You need to rebuild. From there you:

The second phase is: Determine whether any member of your team is worth keeping for the next rebuild. Tank as hard as possible. You become a seller. You nurse injuries longer. You don't buy band aid fixes. You use D-league talent to cover up injuries. From there you:

The third phase is: Cross your fingers and hope for lotto luck. This third stage window, when you consider the practicality of running a business, turning profit, and maintaining fan interest, isn't open indefinitely. You need to land a star here in third stage in one of 4 lotto drafts in a row (hopefully more than one star). If your luck is poor or your tank job was poor you are then forced to enter the fourth and final stage.

The fourth phase is: You either rise up with the assets you've collected, or you become a buyer and try to add more via trades or free agency. The reason why you do this is because basketball is a business and as Dagger just said... you can't afford to turn off an entire generation to your product by being absolutely dreadful (one of the worst 8 teams in basketball) for any more than 5 years or so before you start doing real damage to your brand and your fans. You have to put on a show again. You have to have the games become closer again. You have to have fans leaving the arena enjoying themselves again.

You do this until you realize you're in the first stage again. The 3rd stage is ultimately what determines whether you leave this rebuilding phase all together or not and properly get to move on toward building a contender. We have been in the third phase for longer than I'm sure MLSE would like. We struck out in many ways with landing a franchise changer. We have quantity of lotto pick talent, not high-end quality. That said, basketball is a business and we have watched horrible basketball long enough. It's time for the fourth phase so that we can take a break from tanking until we tank again in another 2-3 years.

And, yes, I'm aware that our timing on Andrew Wiggins was horrible. Such is life as a Raptors fan.
Image
Double Helix





Retired Mod
Retired Mod
User avatar
Posts: 17,876
And1: 6,867
Joined: Jun 25, 2002
Top

Post#118 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:16 pm by ATLTimekeeper

Viatical wrote:There's no use being snide about it, since the pick details weren't released until later. And gosh, now I know more than I did when news of the trade broke!!!111 What are you even being snide and Captain Corrections over anyway? Hmm let's see here:

"Details on pick: Has to fall between 6-14 to change hands in 2015 or 2016.Top 5 protection in 2017 or 2018."



You said you were aware of the protection. I even pointed out the 2015 part, and you ignored it and harped on how bad the next two drafts are.

I pointed out that they're up against the cap next year as well. So they'll still have to consider breaking up the core. By 2017, Randolph will be in his mid 30s, Gasol in his early 30s and Rudy Gay may be long gone. So yeah, I'd say there's considerable risk there.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 12,423
And1: 1,446
Joined: Apr 28, 2008
Top

Post#119 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:29 pm by Viatical

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Viatical wrote:There's no use being snide about it, since the pick details weren't released until later. And gosh, now I know more than I did when news of the trade broke!!!111 What are you even being snide and Captain Corrections over anyway? Hmm let's see here:

"Details on pick: Has to fall between 6-14 to change hands in 2015 or 2016.Top 5 protection in 2017 or 2018."



You said you were aware of the protection. I even pointed out the 2015 part, and you ignored it and harped on how bad the next two drafts are.

I pointed out that they're up against the cap next year as well. So they'll still have to consider breaking up the core. By 2017, Randolph will be in his mid 30s, Gasol in his early 30s and Rudy Gay may be long gone. So yeah, I'd say there's considerable risk there.


I like how you just copy pasted half of the post so that you could bicker with me over how I obviously didn't have all the information I needed at first, while ignoring the quite lucid argument below it where--armed with all that precious new pick info oh noes--I laugh at the idea that a 2017 late rounder would ever be a franchise building block. Instead of talking about the actual subject like an adult, you've spent your third consecutive post harping on how I thought it was a 2013 pick instead of a 2015 pick, even though that changes nothing, least of all my opinion on the matter? If I didn't know what draft the pick was for, and then I did, and analyzed the situation based on that new information, your new move is to address that new information. That's how we dance this dance. But I understand if you want to ignore the substantive part of a post and go "haha buh buh you didn't read a new article about this!" That just isn't how you argue this stuff. What kind of childish internet debate ad hom shenanigans is this?

Everything else you posted where you're not trying to relive that precious moment where--oh no--I thought it was for 2013 and not 2015, is garbage. You pretend that 30 year-olds can't play basketball any longer, and then claim they're "up against the cap" again. Oh? Point in fact, you have no idea what Memphis' cap situation will be like next season or the season after that because those numbers haven't even been calculated yet. Don't make me have to Coon FAQ you to bed the notion that you are doing anything but pulling future cap numbers out of your ass. I have the word "Larry" already typed out in Google my son...If you're going to sit there and pretend that you know anything at all about Memphis' salary situation beyond this season, you will get Coon FAQed like woah. It will leave a giant imprint on your forehead that says FAQ, like a Rick James -> Charlie Murphy Unity ring punch. Good day, sir. Good day. :)
Viatical
Lead Assistant
User avatar
Posts: 4,694
And1: 347
Joined: Dec 7, 2012
Top

Post#120 Re: MEM/CLE trade: Speights on the move, Griz
Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:36 pm by ATLTimekeeper

Go for it. Larry Coon it up.
ATLTimekeeper
RealGM
Posts: 12,423
And1: 1,446
Joined: Apr 28, 2008
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Toronto Raptors


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alfred, And1+2, andyo, aselvana, benplot, biskvito, BPE, cbpern, Crazomali, dagger, DarrylFlicking, David-Kornel, elmer_yuck, Flashy_Lights, ghuytro, hsb, iVC15, James Takote, Jstock12, lorax, MixxSRC, MkDon, Moose10Fan, OvOhYeah, P-AiR, pbj, Ponchos, PrinceV, RAPTORS4LIFE4, RealRapsFan, Spragga, stranger, T-d0t, tdotboyy, Team Redemption, TheRealDeal, tylrrr, Young_Buc