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OT - Morey or Colangelo???

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Who's a better GM?

Morey
89
82%
Colangelo
19
18%
 
Total votes : 108

Post#76 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:54 am by Scraptor

lander wrote:
UssjTrunks wrote:
billy_hoyle wrote:So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....


The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.


MVP level really? Harden is as good as Durant? Lebron? Rose? Kobe?

Really. Wow.




Win shares:
1. Durant
2. LBJ
3. Harden
4. Paul
5. Tony Parker

Harden is definitely having an MVP caliber season.
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Post#77 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:05 am by Marvin Martian

This topic should not even exist. But nonetheless, the only good move that BC has made so far is lowry and gay. The rest are extremely poor. I think Fields, Bargs and DD are overpaid for their production and skillset.
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Post#78 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:20 am by Phenomenologist

lander wrote:
UssjTrunks wrote:
billy_hoyle wrote:So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....


The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.


MVP level really? Harden is as good as Durant? Lebron? Rose? Kobe?

Really. Wow.


LBJ? No.
Durant? No.
Rose? Definitely.
Last few season Kobe? Quite possibly.

Harden is a top-10 player already and he's 23.
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Post#79 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:25 am by Phenomenologist

Scraptor wrote: Everything really depends on how good Val can get, and how fast.


Yep...and yet Aaron Gray plays > 0 minutes in his stead during yet another lottery season. smh. fml.
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Post#80 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:50 am by GREY 1769

Seriously, who voted for BC?

Morey by a country mile. I love how people thought he was crazy stockpiling young players, picks or players in same position only to turn it around and strike gold. Lin was a risk but he took it and the young players/picks were traded to make the team better. Way better, far sooner. Now that's an accelerated rebuild.
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Post#81 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:09 am by Phil A Xiao

Scraptor wrote:How is this even a debate?

Rockets have a playoff record in the west with the youngest team in the league, a pile of capspace to add more talent, and Morey has never had a losing season.

Raptors are almost the complete opposite: capped out with a bunch of bad contracts, barely any wiggle room to make deals, and no draft pick this year, not to mention we've done this after having how many crappy losing seasons. I mean, we tanked an entire year to draft Terrence Ross. Our starting point guard is going to want a significant raise. And we are paying $21mm to three guys whose roughly 1800 minutes when stretched out over our 55 games works out to about 11 minutes per game from each.

We had a giant opportunity to right this franchise last offseason, and we f**ked the dog, not once, but repeatedly. Lowry and Gay were solid acquisitions, but... what next? Everything really depends on how good Val can get, and how fast.


/Thread

Couldn't have said it better myself.
We both agree that having this concept of if we make the playoffs, that's all we need to do here? Neither of us is interested in that. This ownership, Masai and his staff, is focused on one thing: the NBA championship. - Tim Leiweke
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Post#82 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:19 am by Landomar

lander wrote:
UssjTrunks wrote:
billy_hoyle wrote:So Morey takes a 6 game over .500 team trades the starting backcourt (Lowry + Martin), drops a solid starting PF (Scola) and turns them into a 6 game over .500 team and he's a genius? Right....


The point is that he acquired an MVP-level franchise player. That should be the goal of every team. This is a star-driven league, and getting that superstar is by far the hardest part of building a contender.


MVP level really? Harden is as good as Durant? Lebron? Rose? Kobe?

Really. Wow.


LeBron is the best player in the NBA. Durant is #2. After that, Harden is playing as well as anyone. He's right up there with Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, etc. In fact, I think Harden's numbers this year are better than Rose's were when Rose won the MVP. Keep in mind that Rose did not win that MVP for being the best player in the NBA that year, LeBron still clearly was, even though it was a down year for LeBron...if Harden ever won an MVP, it would probably be a similar "best guy on a team everyone likes" situation. But this season he's put himself up into the top 10 players in the NBA group, and that's basically MVP level to me. Sure, if you threw Harden back onto a team with Durant or LeBron, he'd be a sidekick (like Bosh in Miami), but ANYONE is a sidekick to those guys. We shouldn't knock him for that, Harden's legitimately awesome.
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Post#83 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:15 am by Fairview4Life

I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder. He traded a lotto protected 1st round pick for Terrence Williams. He signed Luis Scola to a ~50 million dollar deal just to amnesty him 2 years later. I kind of wonder how we'd all feel about BC doing these things while the team sits in 1st round fodder range for 4-5 years or whatever.

He is good at roster churn, 2nd round picks, and making things happen. His 1st round picks have left a lot to be desired, his free agency signings have been good with Asik, and pretty mediocre for everyone else, and he makes a lot of trades. He is very good at keeping financial flexibility so he can retool whenever he wants without worrying about convincing his owner to pay luxury tax, which is what really distinguishes him from BC (and also not punting 2nd round picks, obviously).
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Post#84 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:27 am by hillbilly hare

Fairview4Life wrote:I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder. He traded a lotto protected 1st round pick for Terrence Williams. He signed Luis Scola to a ~50 million dollar deal just to amnesty him 2 years later. I kind of wonder how we'd all feel about BC doing these things while the team sits in 1st round fodder range for 4-5 years or whatever.

He is good at roster churn, 2nd round picks, and making things happen. His 1st round picks have left a lot to be desired, his free agency signings have been good with Asik, and pretty mediocre for everyone else, and he makes a lot of trades. He is very good at keeping financial flexibility so he can retool whenever he wants without worrying about convincing his owner to pay luxury tax, which is what really distinguishes him from BC (and also not punting 2nd round picks, obviously).


You just have to look at the final result of all the moves. Nobody is perfect and nobody ever said Morey was. Mistakes? Definitely. But if it's a mistake to trade Morris in order to make way for Robinson, while also cutting guaranteed salary for next year, then sign me up for those kinds of "mistakes". And forward it to Clownangelo.

The Scola signing was just about right at the time. Amnestying him was undoubtedly tough, but Morey did it for a reason and with a plan in mind. Something Clownangelo rarely has. He cleared cap space and, unlike Colangelo, didn't waste it: he made two extremely creative FA signings with Asik and Lin. You can question Lin over Dragic, but Asik was a fantastic deal. Amnestying Scola also freed up playing time for all their young forwards.

I would add that back when Scola was amnestied I hoped we might take a shot at getting him, as that would've made trading Andrea a bit easier, while taking pressure off Jonas. But our GM was who knows where. We could also draw a parallel to amnestying, say, Andrea last summer, rather than prolonging the long drawn out and painful trade/non-trade embarrassment that the situation has become. I'm sure a lot of us would've been upset, but if our GM then turned around and used that cap space to grab, say, a Harden (looking forward to his max contract) and an Asik (a starting C leading the league in D rebounding) and a Dragic (signing him, rather than dealing a lotto pick for Lowry), then I would've given him his due.

But our GM does nothing of the kind. Or, basically does close to nothing.

As to what Morey has done - and yes, you're only as good as your last rebuild - he has done wonders. Seriously, to suggest otherwise, and to compare the Rockets situation to ours, and to compare him to Colangelo, is ridiculous. They have their All-NBA player and scoring title contender. They have the top D rebounder in the middle and a solid shot-blocker/changer. They have a horde of young prospects and trade assets. They have a ton of cap space next off-season. They are 30-26 in the tougher West, despite a huge roster overhaul. Most of their players are young or very young. They are in a position to move forward with their franchise superstar and add 2 stars next year either thru free agency (20+ in cap space) or trade (several good young prospects).

What do we have in comparison?
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Post#85 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:31 am by jimmy keys

The Harden hype is getting out of control. If this guy is the number 1 option on a championship winning team, I'll take you out for a steak dinner.

He's in the 2nd tier of star players putting him anywhere from 8th to 20th. Ignoring the obvious superior players, who would you rather have? Harden or (blank) to build around?

Kyrie? - I'd rather have Kyrie
Curry? - It's debatable IMO, if Curry wasn't an injury risk I'd take Curry hands down.
Love? - A healthy Love takes it easy.
A. Davis? - Still way more potential than Harden.
Wiggins? - I know this is premature, but based on potential alone I'd take Wiggins right now given the choice.
George? - It's closer than you think.

Just to name a few. There are many more guys where you'd have to think hard about. Harden is a 1B/2 kind of guy IMO. Houston needs at least one more player on his level to make any noise in the future.
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Post#86 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:33 am by pkiskool

When Andrew Wiggins rolls into town being the franchise player on another team, and creams us for the L, that's when I quit on this team.
Just imagine that pain.... OTL
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Post#87 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:49 am by DatBoiCapspace

Morey is the better Value finder and asset collector,
BC is the better drafter.
They're both high rollers who prefer to gamble on trades/signings instead of building through the draft like a puss.
Morey has the better market to acquire talent through FA.
BC has owners thatre looser with their wallets.
Morey>BC but BC is not the idiot you all think he is.

/Thread.
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"Cap space can't rebound, it can't make shots"- Paul Jones

Preach.
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Post#88 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:09 am by Fairview4Life

hillbilly hare wrote:They have a horde of young prospects and trade assets.


What young prospects and trade assets do they have, exactly? I like Thomas Robinson, but he's still more potential than actual trade asset at this point, which is why he only managed to get a guy like Patrick Patterson back for him. That's the only real young prospect they have. No one gave a **** about Marcus Morris, and no one gives a **** about Royce White, Terrence Jones, or Donut. What are teams going to trade for those guys? Maybe a late first or 2nd round pick, and nothing for White. Chandler Parsons is excellent value per $, but even he isn't going to net you all that much from another team. No one is trading for Lin.

I'd take Jonas over every single one of those "prospects". Amir is head and shoulders better than all of them, and is only 25. Lowry is better than Lin. Hell, Quincy Acy has shown more in his limited minutes than a guy like Terrence Jones has, but I'm betting you wouldn't consider him to be a part of the Raps "horde" of young prospects.

This is the kind of hyperbole around Morey that I object to. Harden and Asik = fantastic work. The trade and extension for Harden along with signing Asik were bold gambles. Finding Parsons and slotting him in = fantastic work. But they don't have some horde of young prospects that is the envy of the league. They have a bunch of decent young guys that no one else is going to offer much for, but that play hard and work within their system. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't some cornucopia of riches.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Post#89 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:12 am by Rapcity_11

jimmy keys wrote:The Harden hype is getting out of control. If this guy is the number 1 option on a championship winning team, I'll take you out for a steak dinner.

He's in the 2nd tier of star players putting him anywhere from 8th to 20th. Ignoring the obvious superior players, who would you rather have? Harden or (blank) to build around?

Kyrie? - I'd rather have Kyrie
Curry? - It's debatable IMO, if Curry wasn't an injury risk I'd take Curry hands down.
Love? - A healthy Love takes it easy.
A. Davis? - Still way more potential than Harden.
Wiggins? - I know this is premature, but based on potential alone I'd take Wiggins right now given the choice.
George? - It's closer than you think.

Just to name a few. There are many more guys where you'd have to think hard about. Harden is a 1B/2 kind of guy IMO. Houston needs at least one more player on his level to make any noise in the future.


Laughable.

Harden is in the 2nd tier, and likely near the top of it. (First being only LBJ and KD)

In his first year as a #1 option, without a Rockets training camp the guy is putting up 26.5/4.8/5.7 on 60.7 TS%, while leading the Rockets on a 44 win pace. Everybody thought the team was going to be in the lottery. They've got the #4 offense in the league as well. AND he's still developing his offensive game.

There is a very, very good chance Wiggins is never as good as Harden is right now.
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Post#90 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 am by Rapcity_11

Fairview4Life wrote:I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder.


Max cap space, that's why. It's way more valuable for them to have that than Morris. You can't look at moves only in a vacuum.

His 1st round drafting has been solid as well.

Should add that you don't seem to be appreciating how valuable cap-space is for a popular destination like Houston. They also have NO bad contracts. None.
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Post#91 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:15 am by [SJJ]

This isn't a mock topic? This is real? People are arguing Morey vs. BC? My goodness.
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Post#92 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:33 am by hillbilly hare

Fairview4Life wrote:
hillbilly hare wrote:They have a horde of young prospects and trade assets.


What young prospects and trade assets do they have, exactly? I like Thomas Robinson, but he's still more potential than actual trade asset at this point, which is why he only managed to get a guy like Patrick Patterson back for him. That's the only real young prospect they have. No one gave a **** about Marcus Morris, and no one gives a **** about Royce White, Terrence Jones, or Donut. What are teams going to trade for those guys? Maybe a late first or 2nd round pick, and nothing for White. Chandler Parsons is excellent value per $, but even he isn't going to net you all that much from another team. No one is trading for Lin.

I'd take Jonas over every single one of those "prospects". Amir is head and shoulders better than all of them, and is only 25. Lowry is better than Lin. Hell, Quincy Acy has shown more in his limited minutes than a guy like Terrence Jones has, but I'm betting you wouldn't consider him to be a part of the Raps "horde" of young prospects.

This is the kind of hyperbole around Morey that I object to. Harden and Asik = fantastic work. The trade and extension for Harden along with signing Asik were bold gambles. Finding Parsons and slotting him in = fantastic work. But they don't have some horde of young prospects that is the envy of the league. They have a bunch of decent young guys that no one else is going to offer much for, but that play hard and work within their system. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't some cornucopia of riches.


Object to it all you want. If it's a debate over GMs and their body of work, you can point out (sadly but truly), that the 2 fantastic moves you just mentioned are the same 2 moves that our own GM could've carried out, if he were actually a good GM.

Prospects' trade value is perceived value. If Morey was able to trade Morris for Robinson, then Morris obviously had some perceived value and I think Morey is betting that Robinson will have some in the future too. I think Robinson was acquired in order to see if his trade value can be raised, and raised enough to be an attractive asset in a package. As to the rest, I'll have to disagree that Acy has more trade value than Terrence Jones, and no, I don't consider Acy to be a prospect with much perceived trade value.

As to what other teams will trade for "those guys", I think that's a what and see thing. Their value was high-ish after last year's summer league, so it's hard not to still call them prospects, as they're more in the 21-22 year old range.

I too consider Jonas a much better prospect than any of those guys, but that's not the point I'm making. Jonas is not, or at least I hope he's not, a prospective trade chip. The guys on Houston are.

I love the Raptors, but going overboard about our players doesn't make you more of a fan than me. Unfortunately for us I think Morey's done an immensely better job than Colangelo the last couple years and that the Rockets are a solid young team now, though more importantly, they are poised to make huge strides this off-season. I do think their young prospects, including Chandler Parsons, especially if they have another big summer league (guys like Robinson and Jones and Donatas) could have good perceived trade value and could be part of a package for an upgrade at a position of need. I mean, I like Ed Davis, but did anyone here honestly think that he and Jose would net us Rudy Gay? In terms of cost-cutting teams trading away a star to save tax money, Memphis might've rated Parsons a better prospect than Ed. If Houston had been willing to use pure cap space to absorb Rudy's deal, I think Parsons + minor filler might've gotten it done. That's what having good perceived young prospects, plus intelligently maneuvered cap space, can do to upgrade your lineup quickly.

You may not agree, but I do think that the perceived trade value of Houston's young guys, i.e. Parsons + Robinson + the others, could net the Rockets a star. On top of that, Morey has created about 20M in cap space next year, with which to try to acquire another star. So, to a team with a 23-year old superstar SG, the top D rebounder in the league at C, and a solid if overrated young PG (yes I agree that Lowry's better, possibly much better if healthy), the Rockets will be in a position to add 2 stars next year, and they have 2 positions of need. Good job and props to Morey.
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Post#93 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:35 am by Fairview4Life

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder.


Max cap space, that's why. It's way more valuable for them to have that than Morris. You can't look at moves only in a vacuum.

His 1st round drafting has been solid as well.

Should add that you don't seem to be appreciating how valuable cap-space is for a popular destination like Houston. They also have NO bad contracts. None.


Morris is only making 2 million next year. If he was any good, they could have moved him for something like a 2014 1st, saving them the money for this summer. But he isn't all that good, and was picked over Faried, Shumpert, Mirotic, and Vucevic amongst others, since we're not looking at the move in a vacuum. I think they'd be ok without max cap room (which they could still have managed to reach without the Morris trade anyway) if they had picked Kenneth Faried instead of Marcus Morris in 2011. His 1st round drafting has been pretty meh. I'm betting they'd rather have Andrew Nicholson than Terrence Jones or Royce White right now, for example.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Post#94 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:41 am by RealSuperfan

I think some people are failing to realize the affect ownership can have on a GM and it wasn't long ago Morey's hands were tied by Les Alexander and his insistence on a playoff berth. Morey really had no choice in regards to a rebuild and the Rockets were stuck in no man's land; barely missing the playoffs to go along with a mid 1st Rounder. I'm sure Morey wanted the Rockets to implode but ultimately it's not his decision and it wasn't until recently they started this accelerated rebuild.

He almost traded for Pau Gasol a year ago, so who knows where the Rockets were headed if that trade wasn't vetoed. However, you've got to appreciate the fact that he's always maintained flexibility and a horde of 1st Rounders to go along with some middling prospects. He'll always be a player in the game with that flexibility and value and it's the reason he was able to take advantage of Sacramento's financial concerns a couple days ago.

Remember, he was there during the McGrady/Yao era so it's entirely conceivable that Les Alexander was still stuck in that era and forcing Morey's hands into a Rockets' treadmill.
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Post#95 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:48 am by hillbilly hare

Fairview4Life wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder.


Max cap space, that's why. It's way more valuable for them to have that than Morris. You can't look at moves only in a vacuum.

His 1st round drafting has been solid as well.

Should add that you don't seem to be appreciating how valuable cap-space is for a popular destination like Houston. They also have NO bad contracts. None.


Morris is only making 2 million next year. If he was any good, they could have moved him for something like a 2014 1st, saving them the money for this summer. But he isn't all that good, and was picked over Faried, Shumpert, Mirotic, and Vucevic amongst others, since we're not looking at the move in a vacuum. I think they'd be ok without max cap room (which they could still have managed to reach without the Morris trade anyway) if they had picked Kenneth Faried instead of Marcus Morris in 2011. His 1st round drafting has been pretty meh. I'm betting they'd rather have Andrew Nicholson than Terrence Jones or Royce White right now, for example.


I don't see anyone calling Morey a great drafter. What I praised him for was acquiring multiple picks and trying to trade them and/or trying to move up in the draft. That didn't work out, but it was a pretty solid strategy. He made a pretty savvy move to trade Dalembert to move up 2 slots and pick Lamb, who was a key part of the Harden package.

Anyone would love Faried. Not many had him that high on their draft boards. I would've loved to trade Andrea or Ed, say, in some package for a pick that could've gotten Faried. But so what?

As to Morris, why say "if he was any good", etc.? They traded him for Robinson, who most people will agree has or might have more perceived trade value, especially if he shows something the rest of this season and next summer league. A solid, albeit minor trade, with upside. What's wrong with that? I wouldn't have minded getting a guy like Robinson and I don't know if Colangelo made any overtures, or if he offered Acy and was rebuffed.
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