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OT - Morey or Colangelo???

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Who's a better GM?

Morey
89
82%
Colangelo
19
18%
 
Total votes : 108

Post#91 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:15 am by [SJJ]

This isn't a mock topic? This is real? People are arguing Morey vs. BC? My goodness.
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Post#92 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:33 am by hillbilly hare

Fairview4Life wrote:
hillbilly hare wrote:They have a horde of young prospects and trade assets.


What young prospects and trade assets do they have, exactly? I like Thomas Robinson, but he's still more potential than actual trade asset at this point, which is why he only managed to get a guy like Patrick Patterson back for him. That's the only real young prospect they have. No one gave a **** about Marcus Morris, and no one gives a **** about Royce White, Terrence Jones, or Donut. What are teams going to trade for those guys? Maybe a late first or 2nd round pick, and nothing for White. Chandler Parsons is excellent value per $, but even he isn't going to net you all that much from another team. No one is trading for Lin.

I'd take Jonas over every single one of those "prospects". Amir is head and shoulders better than all of them, and is only 25. Lowry is better than Lin. Hell, Quincy Acy has shown more in his limited minutes than a guy like Terrence Jones has, but I'm betting you wouldn't consider him to be a part of the Raps "horde" of young prospects.

This is the kind of hyperbole around Morey that I object to. Harden and Asik = fantastic work. The trade and extension for Harden along with signing Asik were bold gambles. Finding Parsons and slotting him in = fantastic work. But they don't have some horde of young prospects that is the envy of the league. They have a bunch of decent young guys that no one else is going to offer much for, but that play hard and work within their system. That isn't a bad thing, but it isn't some cornucopia of riches.


Object to it all you want. If it's a debate over GMs and their body of work, you can point out (sadly but truly), that the 2 fantastic moves you just mentioned are the same 2 moves that our own GM could've carried out, if he were actually a good GM.

Prospects' trade value is perceived value. If Morey was able to trade Morris for Robinson, then Morris obviously had some perceived value and I think Morey is betting that Robinson will have some in the future too. I think Robinson was acquired in order to see if his trade value can be raised, and raised enough to be an attractive asset in a package. As to the rest, I'll have to disagree that Acy has more trade value than Terrence Jones, and no, I don't consider Acy to be a prospect with much perceived trade value.

As to what other teams will trade for "those guys", I think that's a what and see thing. Their value was high-ish after last year's summer league, so it's hard not to still call them prospects, as they're more in the 21-22 year old range.

I too consider Jonas a much better prospect than any of those guys, but that's not the point I'm making. Jonas is not, or at least I hope he's not, a prospective trade chip. The guys on Houston are.

I love the Raptors, but going overboard about our players doesn't make you more of a fan than me. Unfortunately for us I think Morey's done an immensely better job than Colangelo the last couple years and that the Rockets are a solid young team now, though more importantly, they are poised to make huge strides this off-season. I do think their young prospects, including Chandler Parsons, especially if they have another big summer league (guys like Robinson and Jones and Donatas) could have good perceived trade value and could be part of a package for an upgrade at a position of need. I mean, I like Ed Davis, but did anyone here honestly think that he and Jose would net us Rudy Gay? In terms of cost-cutting teams trading away a star to save tax money, Memphis might've rated Parsons a better prospect than Ed. If Houston had been willing to use pure cap space to absorb Rudy's deal, I think Parsons + minor filler might've gotten it done. That's what having good perceived young prospects, plus intelligently maneuvered cap space, can do to upgrade your lineup quickly.

You may not agree, but I do think that the perceived trade value of Houston's young guys, i.e. Parsons + Robinson + the others, could net the Rockets a star. On top of that, Morey has created about 20M in cap space next year, with which to try to acquire another star. So, to a team with a 23-year old superstar SG, the top D rebounder in the league at C, and a solid if overrated young PG (yes I agree that Lowry's better, possibly much better if healthy), the Rockets will be in a position to add 2 stars next year, and they have 2 positions of need. Good job and props to Morey.
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Post#93 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:35 am by Fairview4Life

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder.


Max cap space, that's why. It's way more valuable for them to have that than Morris. You can't look at moves only in a vacuum.

His 1st round drafting has been solid as well.

Should add that you don't seem to be appreciating how valuable cap-space is for a popular destination like Houston. They also have NO bad contracts. None.


Morris is only making 2 million next year. If he was any good, they could have moved him for something like a 2014 1st, saving them the money for this summer. But he isn't all that good, and was picked over Faried, Shumpert, Mirotic, and Vucevic amongst others, since we're not looking at the move in a vacuum. I think they'd be ok without max cap room (which they could still have managed to reach without the Morris trade anyway) if they had picked Kenneth Faried instead of Marcus Morris in 2011. His 1st round drafting has been pretty meh. I'm betting they'd rather have Andrew Nicholson than Terrence Jones or Royce White right now, for example.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Post#94 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:41 am by RealSuperfan

I think some people are failing to realize the affect ownership can have on a GM and it wasn't long ago Morey's hands were tied by Les Alexander and his insistence on a playoff berth. Morey really had no choice in regards to a rebuild and the Rockets were stuck in no man's land; barely missing the playoffs to go along with a mid 1st Rounder. I'm sure Morey wanted the Rockets to implode but ultimately it's not his decision and it wasn't until recently they started this accelerated rebuild.

He almost traded for Pau Gasol a year ago, so who knows where the Rockets were headed if that trade wasn't vetoed. However, you've got to appreciate the fact that he's always maintained flexibility and a horde of 1st Rounders to go along with some middling prospects. He'll always be a player in the game with that flexibility and value and it's the reason he was able to take advantage of Sacramento's financial concerns a couple days ago.

Remember, he was there during the McGrady/Yao era so it's entirely conceivable that Les Alexander was still stuck in that era and forcing Morey's hands into a Rockets' treadmill.
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Post#95 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:48 am by hillbilly hare

Fairview4Life wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:I like Morey.

On the other hand, he just traded Marcus Morris, the 14th pick from 2 years ago, for a 2nd rounder.


Max cap space, that's why. It's way more valuable for them to have that than Morris. You can't look at moves only in a vacuum.

His 1st round drafting has been solid as well.

Should add that you don't seem to be appreciating how valuable cap-space is for a popular destination like Houston. They also have NO bad contracts. None.


Morris is only making 2 million next year. If he was any good, they could have moved him for something like a 2014 1st, saving them the money for this summer. But he isn't all that good, and was picked over Faried, Shumpert, Mirotic, and Vucevic amongst others, since we're not looking at the move in a vacuum. I think they'd be ok without max cap room (which they could still have managed to reach without the Morris trade anyway) if they had picked Kenneth Faried instead of Marcus Morris in 2011. His 1st round drafting has been pretty meh. I'm betting they'd rather have Andrew Nicholson than Terrence Jones or Royce White right now, for example.


I don't see anyone calling Morey a great drafter. What I praised him for was acquiring multiple picks and trying to trade them and/or trying to move up in the draft. That didn't work out, but it was a pretty solid strategy. He made a pretty savvy move to trade Dalembert to move up 2 slots and pick Lamb, who was a key part of the Harden package.

Anyone would love Faried. Not many had him that high on their draft boards. I would've loved to trade Andrea or Ed, say, in some package for a pick that could've gotten Faried. But so what?

As to Morris, why say "if he was any good", etc.? They traded him for Robinson, who most people will agree has or might have more perceived trade value, especially if he shows something the rest of this season and next summer league. A solid, albeit minor trade, with upside. What's wrong with that? I wouldn't have minded getting a guy like Robinson and I don't know if Colangelo made any overtures, or if he offered Acy and was rebuffed.
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Post#96 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:53 am by Fairview4Life

hillbilly hare wrote:I don't see anyone calling Morey a great drafter. What I praised him for was acquiring multiple picks and trying to trade them and/or trying to move up in the draft. That didn't work out, but it was a pretty solid strategy. He made a pretty savvy move to trade Dalembert to move up 2 slots and pick Lamb, who was a key part of the Harden package.

Anyone would love Faried. Not many had him that high on their draft boards. I would've loved to trade Andrea or Ed, say, in some package for a pick that could've gotten Faried. But so what?

As to Morris, why say "if he was any good", etc.? They traded him for Robinson, who most people will agree has or might have more perceived trade value, especially if he shows something the rest of this season and next summer league. A solid, albeit minor trade, with upside. What's wrong with that? I wouldn't have minded getting a guy like Robinson and I don't know if Colangelo made any overtures, or if he offered Acy and was rebuffed.


The guy I was replying to (in the post I quoted) said Morey's first round drafting was solid. It's really not all that solid after Aaron Brooks. Morris was moved for a 2nd round pick in order to free up capspace for this summer. They wouldn't have done that if Morris was reasonably good at basketball.
9. Similarly, IF THOU HAST SPENT the entire offseason predicting that thy team will stink, thou shalt not gloat, nor even be happy, shouldst thou turn out to be correct. Realistic analysis is fine, but be a fan first, a smug smarty-pants second.
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Post#97 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:53 am by Rapcity_11

Fairview4Life wrote:Morris is only making 2 million next year. If he was any good, they could have moved him for something like a 2014 1st, saving them the money for this summer. But he isn't all that good, and was picked over Faried, Shumpert, Mirotic, and Vucevic amongst others, since we're not looking at the move in a vacuum.


And yet the extra cap-space/flexibility, combined with their glut of young PF's make the move a good one. Early second round picks are also fairly valuable for good teams who draft well.

Also, Shumpert has shown little so far and Mirotic may never play in the NBA.

Basically every pick in the draft isn't the optimal one when you look back in hindsight at players taken after. It's absurd to sit here and point to guys that should have been drafted.

I think they'd be ok without max cap room (which they could still have managed to reach without the Morris trade anyway) if they had picked Kenneth Faried instead of Marcus Morris in 2011. His 1st round drafting has been pretty meh. I'm betting they'd rather have Andrew Nicholson than Terrence Jones or Royce White right now, for example.


Maybe wait more than 50 games into ONE season to make judgement about rookies?

And I repeat, they have ZERO bad contracts.
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Post#98 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:59 am by Rapcity_11

Fairview4Life wrote:
The guy I was replying to (in the post I quoted) said Morey's first round drafting was solid. It's really not all that solid after Aaron Brooks. Morris was moved for a 2nd round pick in order to free up capspace for this summer. They wouldn't have done that if Morris was reasonably good at basketball.


The only picks Morey has made in the first round are:
Brooks
Morris
Patterson

Excluding this past year because it's too early.

That is a solid job. I think you are way overestimating how successful mid-round draft picks are. Grabbing 3 rotation players is a good job.

It's also absurd to ignore the second round. Drafting is drafting, period. Combined, Morey has done well.
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Post#99 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:18 pm by The_Hater

Is this question some sort of joke? Moray is a top 5 GM while BC has spent 7 years sliding down to the bottom 5.

Moray is proactive with a long term vision while BC is reactionary and seemingly changes his vision every few months.
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Post#100 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:26 pm by SDM

Do you want four hundred million dollars or a cat that plays with its own turds?
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Post#101 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:37 pm by DatBoiCapspace

SDM wrote:Do you want four hundred million dollars or a cat that plays with its own turds?


I want to see you post on the MIA heat forum instead.
"I've never seen a sports market appreciate cap space more than Toronto. Cap space is like a human being to us" - Sid Seixeiro

"Cap space can't rebound, it can't make shots"- Paul Jones

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Post#102 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:41 pm by SDM

DatBoiCapspace wrote:
SDM wrote:Do you want four hundred million dollars or a cat that plays with its own turds?


I want to see you post on the MIA heat forum instead.


So I guess we'll score one for "cat playing with own turds".
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Post#103 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:56 pm by dTox

So there are 16 realgm accounts made by Bryan Colangelo
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TBZ for the win
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Post#104 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:03 pm by DatBoiCapspace

SDM wrote:
DatBoiCapspace wrote:
SDM wrote:Do you want four hundred million dollars or a cat that plays with its own turds?


I want to see you post on the MIA heat forum instead.


So I guess we'll score one for "cat playing with own turds".


Watching a cat playing with its own turd would be more entertaining then the team youd want us to put on the floor for the next 5 years :lol: .
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Post#105 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:08 pm by Phenomenologist

How the **** is this even a question? The fact that almost 20% chose BC is either because BC himself used multiple accounts to submit multiple votes (possible given his narcissism), or because we have a number of disturbed posters who are suffering from either mild-moderate retardation or a nasty case of Stockholm syndrome.
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Post#106 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:11 pm by Rapcity_11

Phenomenologist wrote:How the **** is this even a question? The fact that almost 20% chose BC is either because BC himself used multiple accounts to submit multiple votes (possible given his narcissism), or because we have a number of disturbed posters who are suffering from either mild-moderate retardation or a nasty case of Stockholm syndrome.


Trolls.
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Post#107 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:14 pm by The_Hater

Phenomenologist wrote:How the **** is this even a question? The fact that almost 20% chose BC is either because BC himself used multiple accounts to submit multiple votes (possible given his narcissism), or because we have a number of disturbed posters who are suffering from either mild-moderate retardation or a nasty case of Stockholm syndrome.


Sadly, I believe the answer is that there are quite a Raps few posters with Stockholm syndrome.
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Post#108 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:38 pm by SDM

Definitely the Stockholm Syndrome. Haventcha heard, there's a big bright future coming. A wonderful land with max contracts, no draft picks, and no playoff appearances. Gotta keep those eyes on that prize.
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Post#109 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:04 pm by brownbobcat

The_Hater wrote:Is this question some sort of joke? Moray is a top 5 GM while BC has spent 7 years sliding down to the bottom 5.

Moray is proactive with a long term vision while BC is reactionary and seemingly changes his vision every few months.

I can understand why people think Morey was kind of dangling in NBA no-man's land for the past few years. The team overachieved relative to its individual talent and therefore didn't suck bad enough to land high picks (catch-22 of team-building). What Morey was positioning himself to do the whole time was to acquire enough pieces to trade/sign superstar-level talent. That's why he let Dragic go and traded Lowry for a pick It was a VERY risky strategy because he could've easily ended up with nothing, but it paid off with the Harden trade. Houston has a young productive core under 25, a ton of cap space and is sitting in a playoff spot right now - it's the complete opposite of the Raptors situation.
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Post#110 Re: OT - Morey or Colangelo???
Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:08 pm by hillbilly hare

SDM wrote:
DatBoiCapspace wrote:
SDM wrote:Do you want four hundred million dollars or a cat that plays with its own turds?


I want to see you post on the MIA heat forum instead.


So I guess we'll score one for "cat playing with own turds".


Now THAT was funny. Use wit to reply to the witless always works. Good job.
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