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The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doing is smart

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Post#1 The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doing is
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:39 am by Double Helix

Welcome fans who apparently aren't fans of the Raptors as currently constructed. At what point are you no longer a fan of a team when you dislike most of the players on it, the GM, and the coach? There are 29 other teams with message boards, you know. Mind you, not many will win a championship over the next 5 years, but I thought you would have known that since you only think long-term? No? Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that less than 4 different cities will win a championship over the next 5 years. How's that for long-term? I would probably bet on that if the odds made it tempting enough. 26 other cities will all have to settle for various other consolation prizes and goals. Why? You read the subject line. You know the answer to that. It's the start -- START -- of the Thunder/Heat rivalry. Two once in a generation talents are entering their prime years in different conferences and if the Jordan era taught us anything it's that players who are likely to be on a shortlist of the top 25 GOAT-level talents, during their prime years, in this sport, with these rules, can't and won't be stopped.

So, all this talk about how we only deal in band aid fixes and short-term planning are, quite frankly, hilarious to me. If you really view it as championship or bust then it's time to simply wait. Grantland has had articles on this very subject. Everyone else is simply pretending during this era. Many of you view the fans (or homers) of the team that support "mediocrity" with disdain because you feel that in your infinite wisdom you're a better long-term planner. You and only you know what has to happen to beat Lebron and KD. You could have tanked beautifully and hit 3 top 2 picks in a row and likely still wouldn't have the top end talent necessary to knock off either the Thunder or Heat as they enter their primes. Lebron and Durant really are that much better over 7 games. So, quit acting like there was a magic pill solution that we missed out on. Quit acting like simply putting forth one of the more competitive teams this city has seen since Bosh, or VC before that, is such a horrible thing for this franchise in this era. Fans are paying money to watch games at the ACC. You can only sell hope and mock drafts for so long.

The Raptors are a business. Businesses need to make money. Teams make money, build their brand, and reach out to new generations by fighting for the playoffs every once and awhile. Next season is that time. Hell, we'll probably even come close this year by season's end despite digging that huge hole. This is the reality of the situation for the NBA's only non-US team. We have to have treadmill seasons. It's part of being in the NBA. We will tank again but better to time the next rebuild around an in-prime Jonas Valanciunas and an aging Lebron/Wade/KD/Westbrook because it won't matter until then regardless. You want to think and talk about the long term and building a championship winner? Start there. Start 4-5 years from now because all this other armchair rebuilding talk is just as treadmill as the stuff most of you hate with those two teams sitting atop the NBA mountain.
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Post#2 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:48 am by Double Helix

PS - Mello wasn't drafted by New York but forced his way back to his home town during his prime years. We may miss out on Wiggins at 19 but that doesn't mean we won't be there waiting for him and doing everything in our power and cashing in assets from the next rebuild to land him as he enters his prime.
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Post#3 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:55 am by dTox

During the Kobe - Lebron era (similar to the current KD- Lebron era) : the Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Mavs all have won rings (heat with a sophmore Wade and Shaq), so there are chances of winning if we build a solid team even with top 25 all time greats, the key word is solid.

The reason why people are pissed off is because we spent over 16 mill per year on players like Landry + Bargnani, and almost 25 mill earlier in the season when you count in Calderon so hating on this team and GM does not mean we are bad fans, we are fans who can't appreciate incompetency. And if we keep accepting the bullsh*t this management keeps feeding us then don't expect any change in the near future.

When we had decent managemnet (even at an average level) with Grunwald, and Vince on the team, our fans were more than happy, so it doesn't take much to satisfy the fans in Toronto. When you have only 1 winning season in the past 7 then its expected that the fans will turn on the product on the floor and management. But don't expect them to just stop following the Raptors entirely because it doesn't make us any less of fans just because we are not satisfied with less than mediocre results.
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Post#4 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:56 am by DatBoiCapspace

LOL Great post. I can't wrap my head around why some of the members on this board are still Raptor fans when they seem to hate almost everything theyve done the past decade lol.

What I also don't get is didnt most people on here like the Lowry trade? Yet most now hate the Gay trade because it appaerently makes us a "treadmill team". This to me is really funny because I think the opposite is true. The Lowry trade made us a treadmill team, not good enough to make the playoffs, yet severly impacted our ability to build through the draft. Now with the Gay trade were a young playoff team with young assets and a higher ceilling. Make up your mind! Lol did you want to tank in the draft or did you want to improve through trades/signings? The Lowry deal put the writing on the wall for trade time, the Gay trade is just the follow up. How you could like the Lowry trade and then hate the Gay trade just simply makes no sense.
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Post#5 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:59 am by CoachJReturns

You make a valid point, but I think those of us who are realistic ARE thinking of the post James and Durant era. That's why passing on Drummond was such a huge mistake. By the time both he and Val would be entering their primes, the Heat and Thunder dynasties could be starting to finally cool off. Between now and then we would have had ample opportunity to draft another young star, preferably a guard, to play with Val and Drummond. We still have Val, but no team in their right mind should be passing on all-star talent for role player talent in the draft when, like you said, no lottery team has a shot at the title for several years anyway. Just my two cents.
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Post#6 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:09 am by TorontoBaller

A little too sanctimonious for me.

I don't need a championship to be happy.
Sure I'd bs thrilled by a ship... Don't get me wrong.
I'd be very happy losing in the second round to the heat or some other team.
I just can't stand losing so much.

I've enjoyed the last 2 + weeks immensely.
Give me wins a bit of playoffs and i'll go to bed with a smile on my face.

But your point that "(these 2 players), in their prime, in this league, with these rules can't and won't be stopped."
Well put and so true.
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Post#7 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:10 am by dTox

Another thing to add, a team like Cleveland has a much better future than Toronto, Cleveland, the butthole of USA of all teams. And this is the 2nd time they did this when you add in the Lebron era, they did it by giving themselves the most opportunity to take on another superstar via draft pics, (i.e. trading for Barron Davis and aquiring picks to land Irving, along with their own pick), where as we kept doing this semi-rebuild, landing in the 8th spot last year for ex.. ...all we ask is that we have 1 superstar player, by landing a top 3 pick, and they couldn't even do that, even though they had made playoffs only twice in 7 years, if we're going to suck at least make it worth while, not for a player like Terrence Ross, its a slap to the fans when you expect them to be happy about the turd product laid laid out on the floor year after year
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Post#8 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:11 am by DatBoiCapspace

CoachJReturns wrote:You make a valid point, but I think those of us who are realistic ARE thinking of the post James and Durant era. That's why passing on Drummond was such a huge mistake. By the time both he and Val would be entering their primes, the Heat and Thunder dynasties could be starting to finally cool off. Between now and then we would have had ample opportunity to draft another young star, preferably a guard, to play with Val and Drummond. We still have Val, but no team in their right mind should be passing on all-star talent for role player talent in the draft when, like you said, no lottery team has a shot at the title for several years anyway. Just my two cents.


I agree Drummond + JV would have looked nice, I think JV has the quicks to play the 4. But people forget other teams worse off then us passed on Drummond for a reason. He could also have easily forced his way out of TO by then in your scenario. In a market like ours there is something to be said about looking for "character guys", its not just about putting nice guys on the floor, it also has its benefits of acquiring players who want to be here, and wont potentially screw up our franchise.
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Post#9 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:15 am by DatBoiCapspace

dTox wrote:Another thing to add, a team like Cleveland has a much better future than Toronto, Cleveland, the butthole of USA of all teams. And this is the 2nd time they did this when you add in the Lebron era, they did it by giving themselves the most opportunity to take on another superstar via draft pics, (i.e. trading for Barron Davis and aquiring picks to land Irving, along with their own pick), where as we kept doing this semi-rebuild, landing in the 8th spot last year for ex.. ...all we ask is that we have 1 superstar player, by landing a top 3 pick, and they couldn't even do that, even though they had made playoffs only twice in 7 years, if we're going to suck at least make it worth while, not for a player like Terrence Ross, its a slap to the fans when you expect them to be happy about the turd thats always on the court.


The Davis trade was a good trade but it hardly increased their chances of landing Irving. They lucked out on Irving just like most teams that get franchise guys at number 1 picks do. The next two years with draft and FA will decide Clevelands fortunes, but If they didnt land Irving I'd say their future is worse off then ours.
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Post#10 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:18 am by 416

You predict that less than four teams (so at most three teams) will win the ship in the next five years. According to even your logic, why can't we be that third team?

If sports were truly about the favorite team always winning, and underdogs always losing, whats the point of playing the game?

Whats so bad about fans wanting their team to bring home the championship every year (despite how bad their team may be?)

Who is to say that KD/Lebron won't get season-ending injuries?

Despite being down in double digit figures in the dying minutes of the fourth quarter against one of the best defensive teams in the league, who is to say that our scrub player won't score 11 straight baskets and our starting point guard making a four point play? (Yes this is reference to our last game against the grizz)

#SorryForHoping
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Post#11 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:20 am by 3Si

Amen
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Post#12 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:20 am by Indeed

dTox wrote:During the Kobe - Lebron era (similar to the current KD- Lebron era) : the Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Mavs all have won rings (heat with a sophmore Wade and Shaq), so there are chances of winning if we build a solid team even with top 25 all time greats, the key word is solid.

The reason why people are pissed off is because we spent over 16 mill per year on players like Landry + Bargnani, and almost 25 mill earlier in the season when you count in Calderon so hating on this team and GM does not mean we are bad fans, we are fans who can't appreciate incompetency. And if we keep accepting the bullsh*t this management keeps feeding us then don't expect any change in the near future.

When we had decent managemnet (even at an average level) with Grunwald, and Vince on the team, our fans were more than happy, so it doesn't take much to satisfy the fans in Toronto. When you have only 1 winning season in the past 7 then its expected that the fans will turn on the product on the floor and management. But don't expect them to just stop following the Raptors entirely because it doesn't make us any less of fans just because we are not satisfied with less than mediocre results.


The reason the fans are pissed is because we lacked talent, and BC seriously think Bargnani-DeRozan-Calderon each with a flaw on offense, and complete disaster on defense can achieve anything without bring his promises (a shot blocker and a capable small forward). By adding Gay, we are now closer to the Bosh level, and adding a shot blocker (or develop Jonas), we are closer to contender.

I seriously don't see the problem with Bargnani/DeRozan/Lowry, all of them paid as 2nd/3rd option money, which is reasonable if they are performing at their expectation rate (where Bargnani and Lowry are not due to different reasons), while Calderon is over paid due to his defense (top 10 PG money).
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Post#13 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:21 am by DatBoiCapspace

416 wrote:You predict that less than four teams (so at most three teams) will win the ship in the next five years. According to even your logic, why can't we be that third team?

If sports were truly about the favorite team always winning, and underdogs always losing, whats the point of playing the game?

Whats so bad about fans wanting their team to bring home the championship every year (despite how bad their team may be?)

Who is to say that KD/Lebron won't get season-ending injuries?

Despite being down in double digit figures in the dying minutes of the fourth quarter against one of the best defensive teams in the league, who is to say that our scrub player won't score 11 straight baskets and our starting point guard making a four point play? (Yes this is reference to our last game against the grizz)

#SorryForHoping


Hoping is awesome. And I agree we have a shot. Boston and Indiana were a Lebron mental breakdown away from knocking out Miami last year. But I think the point is more to not bitch that we dont have a top 5 player, and to keep bitching until we tank hard and long enough to finally draft one. That ship has sailed, be happy with our team!
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Post#14 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:21 am by Los Manos

For all the praise that a GM like Morey gets around here, if he had constructed that roster in Toronto, fans here would still be screaming 'mediocrity'? If they hand Josh Smith a near max deal this summer as expected then they are capped out and aren't good enough to be a championship team.

This is indeed the LeBron/KD era and the likelihood of any other team sniffing a championship in the next 5 years is slim to none. If the raptors make the playoffs for the next 3-4 years starting next year then as fans we should be jumping with joy considering the most promising prospect we have won't be close to his prime during those years. Being an above .500 team that makes the playoffs every year is a whole lot of fun as a fan. If that's not enough for you then go and support a Miami or OKC.
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Post#15 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:21 am by ruckus

dTox wrote:During the Kobe - Lebron era (similar to the current KD- Lebron era) : the Spurs, Pistons, Heat, Mavs all have won rings (heat with a sophmore Wade and Shaq), so there are chances of winning if we build a solid team even with top 25 all time greats, the key word is solid.

The reason why people are pissed off is because we spent over 16 mill per year on players like Landry + Bargnani, and almost 25 mill earlier in the season when you count in Calderon so hating on this team and GM does not mean we are bad fans, we are fans who can't appreciate incompetency. And if we keep accepting the bullsh*t this management keeps feeding us then don't expect any change in the near future.


I don't even think you can call the last era Kobe-Lebron. Going back to the end of the Bulls era, the Lakers (Kobe, Shaq, etc.) and Spurs (Duncan) have won 9 championships combined, the Celtics 1 (with 3 hall of famers who at the time were all 10+ year veterans), the Mavs 1 (with Dirk who at the time was a 13 year veteran) and the Heat 1 (Wade & Shaq). The only team that would probably qualify under your "solid" definition (young-ish, deep, consistent talent) are the Pistons which would probably qualify as an aberration.

Double Helix has a very good point. The Heat have 3 future hall of famers, which unlike the Celtics, are just entering their prime. That gives them a 6-10 year window if the new tax rules don't break them up. If the Thunder can hold onto Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka, that probably gives them a 7-13 year window. As DH said, by the time Wiggins enters his prime in 6-7 years, maybe we'll have the flexibility to pick him up.

As it stands now, I like our team. They are fun to watch, they work hard and, despite the record, they have been pretty competitive in every single game.
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Post#16 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:22 am by dTox

DatBoiCapspace wrote:
dTox wrote:Another thing to add, a team like Cleveland has a much better future than Toronto, Cleveland, the butthole of USA of all teams. And this is the 2nd time they did this when you add in the Lebron era, they did it by giving themselves the most opportunity to take on another superstar via draft pics, (i.e. trading for Barron Davis and aquiring picks to land Irving, along with their own pick), where as we kept doing this semi-rebuild, landing in the 8th spot last year for ex.. ...all we ask is that we have 1 superstar player, by landing a top 3 pick, and they couldn't even do that, even though they had made playoffs only twice in 7 years, if we're going to suck at least make it worth while, not for a player like Terrence Ross, its a slap to the fans when you expect them to be happy about the turd thats always on the court.


The Davis trade was a good trade but it hardly increased their chances of landing Irving. They lucked out on Irving just like most teams that get franchise guys at number 1 picks do. The next two years with draft and FA will decide Clevelands fortunes, but If they didnt land Irving I'd say their future is worse off then ours.


The point was, they gave themselves alot more opportunity to land a super star player, they had 3 top 5 picks in the past 2 years where as we had the 5th and 8th pick, at least their management knows and understands it takes a superstar to win in this league and the best way to attain one is via the draft.
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Post#17 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:22 am by J-Roc

It's the LeBron era.
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Post#18 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:22 am by orbesnet

^^^re:TorontoBaller: agreed on what I'd be satisfied with... a 'ship isn't in the cards for us for another decade at least if ever.

I'm not sold on the idea that it's either going to be Lebron or KD winning it all. Sure they look unstoppable on their current teams but next year is another situation... people get dealt, people get injured, players opt out, a lot of things are possible.

Also, just as these two are a twice in a generation type of talent there is also the once in a lifetime team that upsets it all. Granted the refs might get in the way of that, but the chance exists.
TRoss has "potential legend of the game" written all over him.
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Post#19 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:23 am by Waylon Mercy

Another thing to think about is we have close to $47 million dollars in expiring contracts
after next season in Rudy, Bargnani, Fields and Amir.

And expiring contracts are still extremely valuable assets...

We haven't handcuffed ourselves to a treadmill we still have a get out of jail card
if Colangelo or the new GM chooses to at that time.

This offseason was always a write off with the worst draft since 2000 coming up and a lackluster
FA market with a couple of stars that would never come here.

Next year the crown jewel is Wiggins in a lottery where 8-10 teams will most likely be tanking for...

As someone said we might not get Wiggins now but the time he becomes a FA we will have the
inside track for the first time with a star.

It does suck that we have close to $20 mill tied up into Bargnani, Fields and Kleiza per season
but hopefully the amnesty is used on Kleiza and we can somehow get Bargnani and Fields back
on track as they are having unexplainable horrific seasons.
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Post#20 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:24 am by dTox

Los Manos wrote:For all the praise that a GM like Morey gets around here, if he had constructed that roster in Toronto, fans here would still be screaming 'mediocrity'? If they hand Josh Smith a near max deal this summer as expected then they are capped out and aren't good enough to be a championship team.

This is indeed the LeBron/KD era and the likelihood of any other team sniffing a championship in the next 5 years is slim to none. If the raptors make the playoffs for the next 3-4 years starting next year then as fans we should be jumping with joy considering the most promising prospect we have won't be close to his prime during those years. Being an above .500 team that makes the playoffs every year is a whole lot of fun as a fan. If that's not enough for you then go and support a Miami or OKC.


Morey didn't spend money on players like Fields, Bargnani, Kappono, Turk, Calderon, and he won almost all of his trades where as Toronto helped facilitate Miami in getting enough cap space to sign their big 3 via the JO trade, and our pick is also owed to OKC to solidify their contention. And all this talk about supporting a playoff team, last time I checked we made the playoff twice in the past 10 years, so we can't mention the Raptors and playoffs in the same sentence.
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