The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doing is smart

[DatBoiCapspace]

Another thing to add, a team like Cleveland has a much better future than Toronto, Cleveland, the butthole of USA of all teams. And this is the 2nd time they did this when you add in the Lebron era, they did it by giving themselves the most opportunity to take on another superstar via draft pics, (i.e. trading for Barron Davis and aquiring picks to land Irving, along with their own pick), where as we kept doing this semi-rebuild, landing in the 8th spot last year for ex.. ...all we ask is that we have 1 superstar player, by landing a top 3 pick, and they couldn't even do that, even though they had made playoffs only twice in 7 years, if we're going to suck at least make it worth while, not for a player like Terrence Ross, its a slap to the fans when you expect them to be happy about the turd thats always on the court.

The Davis trade was a good trade but it hardly increased their chances of landing Irving. They lucked out on Irving just like most teams that get franchise guys at number 1 picks do. The next two years with draft and FA will decide Clevelands fortunes, but If they didnt land Irving I'd say their future is worse off then ours.

The point was, they gave themselves alot more opportunity to land a super star player, they had 3 top 5 picks in the past 2 years where as we had the 5th and 8th pick, at least their management knows and understands it takes a superstar to win in this league and the best way to attain one is via the draft.

I see your point but you should also look at mine. We had the third worst record in 2011, MIN had the worst. We got 5th, they got 2nd. Clippers, even with the Davis trade only had the second best chance of landing Irving yet they won the lottery. Thats the problem with building through the draft, now matter how skilled a drafter you are, and BC is a great one, you still need luck. And last year BC was signing D leaguers and shutting down starters left and right, you cant blame him for the poor tank job. Blame Casey for preaching defense and Uzoh for having the game of his life in the tank bowl. Then blame Stern for us losing the coin toss for 7th.

CLE wouldnt trade Irving for anyone on our team, but that doesnt mean they have a better future. If they dont land a second star in FA or the draft the next couple years then I dont think their ceiling is that high even with them tanking 4 years and us only 2.

[Double Helix]

For me, it's just about setting different goals. I think of Utah during the Jordan era and what Stockton said about "the journey" vs "the destination." Now, those Jazz teams made it about as far as you can without winning so that's a little different than what I'm expecting but "journey" vs "destination" argument is ultimately what it comes down to. I think about all of these teams a little worse than Utah who still filled us as kids with great basketball memories. Reggie's Pacers. Ewing's Knicks. The Price-lead Cavs. Webber's Kings. All of these great teams who provided thrills and excitement on their paths into the playoffs and then during the playoffs but were knocked out. There's value in all of that. There was value for those fans in those games and there's value for those fans now looking back.

Maybe our goal during this era is to get to the second round again? Maybe it's to get past the second round for the first time in franchise history. Is any long-time Raptors fan really going to say that the memories of this team battling the Knicks and the 76ers in those playoffs series aren't some of their favorite basketball memories associated with this team?

What's wrong with wanting to return to that for a short period of time and then rebuilding again? What's wrong with treating an Eastern Conference Championship appearance as a mini-championship? What's wrong with a second round appearance as a franchise accomplishment?

[CoachJReturns]

You make a valid point, but I think those of us who are realistic ARE thinking of the post James and Durant era. That's why passing on Drummond was such a huge mistake. By the time both he and Val would be entering their primes, the Heat and Thunder dynasties could be starting to finally cool off. Between now and then we would have had ample opportunity to draft another young star, preferably a guard, to play with Val and Drummond. We still have Val, but no team in their right mind should be passing on all-star talent for role player talent in the draft when, like you said, no lottery team has a shot at the title for several years anyway. Just my two cents.

I agree Drummond + JV would have looked nice, I think JV has the quicks to play the 4. But people forget other teams worse off then us passed on Drummond for a reason. He could also have easily forced his way out of TO by then in your scenario. In a market like ours there is something to be said about looking for "character guys", its not just about putting nice guys on the floor, it also has its benefits of acquiring players who want to be here, and wont potentially screw up our franchise.

Sorry, but by the time Barnes was gone Drummond was the consensus pick. I think we all know this. There was nobody left who was anywhere near his level. Much like Iggy was the consensus pick years ago, although I was more interested in J Smooth at the time, Iggy was the obvious choice for our franchise. Not taking Drummond, who is not only a great talent, but by all accounts a very friendly, coachable and respectful player was a colossal f**k up to pick Ross and then extend Demar, so that Ross was never going to be more than a bench player. That's a waste of a top 10 pick. Drummond even fit the mold of a guy with good character. Remember when he knew he was about to be drafted? He cried. That's a humble kid. I would have been proud to have someone like that on the team.

[DatBoiCapspace]

For me, it's just about setting different goals. I think of Utah during the Jordan era and what Stockton said about "the journey" vs "the destination." Now, those Jazz teams made it about as far as you can without winning so that's a little different than what I'm expecting but "journey" vs "destination" argument is ultimately what it comes down to. I think about all of these teams a little worse than Utah who still filled us as kids with great basketball memories. Reggie's Pacers. Ewing's Knicks. The Price-lead Cavs. Webber's Kings. All of these great teams who provided thrills and excitement on their paths into the playoffs and then during the playoffs but were knocked out. There's value in all of that. There was value for those fans in those games and there's value for those fans now looking back.

Maybe our goal during this era is to get to the second round again? Maybe it's to get past the second round for the first time in franchise history. Is anyone long-time Raptors fan really going to say that the memories of this team battling the Knicks and the 76ers in those playoffs series aren't some of their favorite basketball memories?

What's wrong with wanting to return to that for a short period of time and then rebuilding again? What's wrong with treating an Eastern Conference Championship appearance as a mini-championship and a goal worth building toward?

Whats wrong is that bloggers who preach capspace, draft picks, and advanced analytics have corrupted a whole generation of bball fans minds lol.

[Parataxis]

Two once in a generation talents are entering their prime years in different conferences

Protip: If two potential GOAT players are entering their prime years concurrently, they probably arn't 'once in a generation'.

[Double Helix]

Two once in a generation talents are entering their prime years in different conferences

Protip: If two potential GOAT players are entering their prime years concurrently, they probably arn't 'once in a generation'.

I actually thought about wording that differently but didn't to propose the idea that their talent levels are both "once in a generation" but they're here competing at the same time. It's abstract admittedly but I wasn't expecting a semantics battle. Lebron and KD are absolute freaks statistically. It's crazy in a way that they both came along at the same time because they're both so much better than their peers that they can only be compared with one another. It's hard to even compare either to past legends. That's how unique they are.

[DatBoiCapspace]

You make a valid point, but I think those of us who are realistic ARE thinking of the post James and Durant era. That's why passing on Drummond was such a huge mistake. By the time both he and Val would be entering their primes, the Heat and Thunder dynasties could be starting to finally cool off. Between now and then we would have had ample opportunity to draft another young star, preferably a guard, to play with Val and Drummond. We still have Val, but no team in their right mind should be passing on all-star talent for role player talent in the draft when, like you said, no lottery team has a shot at the title for several years anyway. Just my two cents.

I agree Drummond + JV would have looked nice, I think JV has the quicks to play the 4. But people forget other teams worse off then us passed on Drummond for a reason. He could also have easily forced his way out of TO by then in your scenario. In a market like ours there is something to be said about looking for "character guys", its not just about putting nice guys on the floor, it also has its benefits of acquiring players who want to be here, and wont potentially screw up our franchise.

Sorry, but by the time Barnes was gone Drummond was the consensus pick. I think we all know this. There was nobody left who was anywhere near his level. Much like Iggy was the consensus pick years ago, although I was more interested in J Smooth at the time, Iggy was the obvious choice for our franchise. Not taking Drummond, who is not only a great talent, but by all accounts a very friendly, coachable and respectful player was a colossal f**k up to pick Ross and then extend Demar, so that Ross was never going to be more than a bench player. That's a waste of a top 10 pick. Drummond even fit the mold of a guy with good character. Remember when he knew he was about to be drafted? He cried. That's a humble kid. I would have been proud to have someone like that on the team.

Drummond was consensus top 3 pick talent wise, even by BC himself. Yet he went 9th so we werent the only ones to pass. I agree I'd rather have drummond but you cant compare Rafael over iggy to Ross over Drummond lol lets not get carried away here. First, we have Jonas at C, second while I agree the DD signing was way to premature, Ross can still be a starter in this league through a trade of one of them so hes still a valuable asset for us and not a bust like some had predicted. I would prefer Drummond over Ross too in hindsight, but there were clearly legitimate reasons not to pick him. Guys like Trob and Waiters with much less upside were taken over him too.

[Ari_Emanuel]

The Heat DO NOT have a 5 + year window. Wade is at a point now where he is fighting everyday to slow down his decline. Bosh is talented but far from a dominant player. Their salary situation is untenable under the new CBA,
Until then you keep upgrading and developing your talent and at least look like you are trying to build a contender.

Also, Paul George isn't anywhere near his ceiling yet and Miami already has serious issues with the Pacer's length and toughness. That's what we should be emulating.

[CoachJReturns]

For me, it's just about setting different goals. I think of Utah during the Jordan era and what Stockton said about "the journey" vs "the destination." Now, those Jazz teams made it about as far as you can without winning so that's a little different than what I'm expecting but "journey" vs "destination" argument is ultimately what it comes down to. I think about all of these teams a little worse than Utah who still filled us as kids with great basketball memories. Reggie's Pacers. Ewing's Knicks. The Price-lead Cavs. Webber's Kings. All of these great teams who provided thrills and excitement on their paths into the playoffs and then during the playoffs but were knocked out. There's value in all of that. There was value for those fans in those games and there's value for those fans now looking back.

Maybe our goal during this era is to get to the second round again? Maybe it's to get past the second round for the first time in franchise history. Is any long-time Raptors fan really going to say that the memories of this team battling the Knicks and the 76ers in those playoffs series aren't some of their favorite basketball memories associated with this team?

What's wrong with wanting to return to that for a short period of time and then rebuilding again? What's wrong with treating an Eastern Conference Championship appearance as a mini-championship? What's wrong with a second round appearance as a franchise accomplishment?

Excellent post. I will add one note, however. Those other teams had all star talent and many of them had hall of fame talent. We still need to have a couple great drafts to reach that point. The good news is that with another front office it would be possible to land a star player and win some games at the same time. It just takes better scouting and judgement at the draft than BC has shown in Toronto. There have been stars and potential stars available that we have missed. I sincerely think that a GM with a little patience would make all the difference in the world to this team. I have no problem with us being a playoff team that doesn't win titles, if like you say, we make it to the 2nd round sometimes and maybe even further on occasion. We'd all be happy with that.

[dTox]

The Davis trade was a good trade but it hardly increased their chances of landing Irving. They lucked out on Irving just like most teams that get franchise guys at number 1 picks do. The next two years with draft and FA will decide Clevelands fortunes, but If they didnt land Irving I'd say their future is worse off then ours.

The point was, they gave themselves alot more opportunity to land a super star player, they had 3 top 5 picks in the past 2 years where as we had the 5th and 8th pick, at least their management knows and understands it takes a superstar to win in this league and the best way to attain one is via the draft.

I see your point but you should also look at mine. We had the third worst record in 2011, MIN had the worst. We got 5th, they got 2nd. Clippers, even with the Davis trade only had the second best chance of landing Irving yet they won the lottery. Thats the problem with building through the draft, now matter how skilled a drafter you are, and BC is a great one, you still need luck. And last year BC was signing D leaguers and shutting down starters left and right, you cant blame him for the poor tank job. Blame Casey for preaching defense and Uzoh for having the game of his life in the tank bowl. Then blame Stern for us losing the coin toss for 7th.

CLE wouldnt trade Irving for anyone on our team, but that doesnt mean they have a better future. If they dont land a second star in FA or the draft the next couple years then I dont think their ceiling is that high even with them tanking 4 years and us only 2.

I wouldn't call BC a great drafter, with the Raps, he selected Bargnani (which originally should've been Alridge or Gay), he drafted Demar over Holiday, Lawson. Val was a solid pick, but Ross over Drummond? Thats really bad, I don't care what he did in Phoenix because he hasn't brought any of that success here and he also had his daddy to help him out over there. In regards to the lottery being all about chances, my point was, if we at least had a high end pick, even in the top 3 catagory for another year or two, we could've came away with much better talent. Had BC done a proper rebuild after Bosh had left, by getting rid of Bargs, Jose, this team would've had a much better chance at the lottery. The Cavs got rid of Andre Miller, Ricky Davis prior to the Lebron draft, because they knew having both players on the team would've brought another 5-6 wins, diminishing their chances of attaining a top 3 pick. Hell even the Durant led OKC team, tanked their asses off for 3 straight years under Presti and its the reason why they are as far as they are, and the same reason why they were able to aquire KD, RW, and Harden.

And all you've done so far is defend BC with excuses, not results (i.e. coin toss, Cleveland being lucky in draft), I don't care about the excuses, I wanna see results, maybe its the corporate world that has brought me to such mentality but it is what it is.

[Pchu]

PS - Mello wasn't drafted by New York but forced his way back to his home town during his prime years. We may miss out on Wiggins at 19 but that doesn't mean we won't be there waiting for him and doing everything in our power and cashing in assets from the next rebuild to land him as he enters his prime.

Actually that may be the best way to get Wiggins. We would miss all the growing pains and reap the benefits.

Just saying...

[Double Helix]

The other thing that I like about us investing in a guy like a Rudy Gay during his prime years for a small 3 year window is that if some of the most dominant players in the league are SFs... it's kind of nice to have your money invested in a long, athletic SF who can at least slow those guys down a little and guard some of those names a little one-on-one every now and again over 7 games.

Rudy is in another tier than those top, top guys but it's still nice to know that when we do get in a playoff series next year we have somebody who can go head-to-head with those guys over 7 games and at least keep it respectable while we try to expose their team weaknesses other ways.

I can imagine him with the TNT cameras on, guarding some of those SFs and slowing them down more than most in the league. That alone will make those matchups interesting when the time comes.

[Pchu]

Another thing to add, a team like Cleveland has a much better future than Toronto, Cleveland, the butthole of USA of all teams. And this is the 2nd time they did this when you add in the Lebron era, they did it by giving themselves the most opportunity to take on another superstar via draft pics, (i.e. trading for Barron Davis and aquiring picks to land Irving, along with their own pick), where as we kept doing this semi-rebuild, landing in the 8th spot last year for ex.. ...all we ask is that we have 1 superstar player, by landing a top 3 pick, and they couldn't even do that, even though they had made playoffs only twice in 7 years, if we're going to suck at least make it worth while, not for a player like Terrence Ross, its a slap to the fans when you expect them to be happy about the turd product laid laid out on the floor year after year

Cleveland won the lottery with the Clippers pick (ie: 8th worst record). We had the 8th worse record and landed exactly where it should be. So a lot of luck is involved.

[Warlock]

Great post OP.

[DatBoiCapspace]

I wouldn't call BC a great drafter, with the Raps, he selected Bargnani (which originally should've been Gay), he drafted Demar over Holiday, Lawson. Val was a solid pick, but Ross over Drummond? Thats really bad, I don't care what he did in Phoenix because he hasn't brought any of that success here and he also had his daddy to help him out over there. In regards to the lottery being all about chances, my point was, if we at least had a high end pick, even in the top 3 catagory for another year or two, we could've came away with much better talent. Had BC done a proper rebuild after Bosh had left, by getting rid of Bargs, Jose, this team would've had a much better chance at the lottery. The Cavs got rid of Andre Miller, Ricky Davis prior to the Lebron draft, because they knew having both players on the team would've brought another 5-6 wins, diminishing their chances of attaining a pick. Hell even the Durant led OKC team, tanked their asses off for 3 straight years under Presti and its the reason why they are as far as they are, and the same reason why they were able to aquire KD, RW, and Harden.

Well I still count the Phoenix years for BC lol they all seemed like BC moves anyways getting multiskilled multi-position guys and overpaying for an aging Nash. And you can nitpick at every GM's draft record like that, even Presti who took Green over Noah. Bargs was a weird draft year with no clear #1, Gay wouldnt have dramatically changed our fortunes. My problem with BC is hes so hell bent on his "evolution of the game" mentality that he actually thought Bargs could play C. Presti deserves all the credit in the world for taking RW and Harden, but Seattle won 31 games the year they got Durant, mostly due to injuries I believe. They were supposed to get the 5th pick yet they lucked out into 2nd, Boston shouldve got KD and without him OKC wouldve been good but not great. We could go back and forth at this but I think you get the point and I see yours, Raps shouldve tanked harder but you cant discount the luck involved as well.

[Indeed]

For all the praise that a GM like Morey gets around here, if he had constructed that roster in Toronto, fans here would still be screaming 'mediocrity'? If they hand Josh Smith a near max deal this summer as expected then they are capped out and aren't good enough to be a championship team.

This is indeed the LeBron/KD era and the likelihood of any other team sniffing a championship in the next 5 years is slim to none. If the raptors make the playoffs for the next 3-4 years starting next year then as fans we should be jumping with joy considering the most promising prospect we have won't be close to his prime during those years. Being an above .500 team that makes the playoffs every year is a whole lot of fun as a fan. If that's not enough for you then go and support a Miami or OKC.

Morey didn't spend money on players like Fields, Bargnani, Kappono, Turk, Calderon, and he won almost all of his trades where as Toronto helped facilitate Miami in getting enough cap space to sign their big 3 via the JO trade, and our pick is also owed to OKC to solidify their contention. And all this talk about supporting a playoff team, last time I checked we made the playoff twice in the past 10 years, so we can't mention the Raptors and playoffs in the same sentence.

Asik is overpaid. Houston also has their benefits in tax, weather, Chinese market and etc.
Morey definitely did a good job, particularly drafting players. However, he has his limit, and it doesn't mean he will do a better job in Toronto. Same for BC where he did a great job in Phoenix, but having a hard time signing players in Toronto. Would Morey change that fact? No, he can hardly convince players.

[dTox]

Another thing to add, a team like Cleveland has a much better future than Toronto, Cleveland, the butthole of USA of all teams. And this is the 2nd time they did this when you add in the Lebron era, they did it by giving themselves the most opportunity to take on another superstar via draft pics, (i.e. trading for Barron Davis and aquiring picks to land Irving, along with their own pick), where as we kept doing this semi-rebuild, landing in the 8th spot last year for ex.. ...all we ask is that we have 1 superstar player, by landing a top 3 pick, and they couldn't even do that, even though they had made playoffs only twice in 7 years, if we're going to suck at least make it worth while, not for a player like Terrence Ross, its a slap to the fans when you expect them to be happy about the turd product laid laid out on the floor year after year

Cleveland won the lottery with the Clippers pick (ie: 8th worst record). We had the 8th worse record and landed exactly where it should be. So a lot of luck is involved.

I mentioned earlier, they gave themselves the best opportunity to succeed, by having 2 lottery picks in the same year, that enhanced their chances of attaining a top 3 pick. We did a shi**y job of tanking year after year, hence why we have no superstar prospect to show for our drat results.

[KnickerBonkerz]

I find this thread so ironic... so you're saying that instead of PROPERLY rebuilding, so that when this Thunder Heat rivalry is over we will be READY to step in and contend, we should overpay as many scrubs as we can to compete not for a championship, but for an 8th seed, so that we can hopefully be swept by one of these great teams....

Kay, thanks for the insight. Now let's get back to reality: We have a higher chance for a championship if we rebuild the RIGHT way and with a little bit of luck, maybe we land one of the next superstars... don't you think if we had actually stayed the course when we supposedly started rebuilding last year, maybe we would've had a shot at Wiggins next year? Look what we threw that chance away for...

[dTox]

For all the praise that a GM like Morey gets around here, if he had constructed that roster in Toronto, fans here would still be screaming 'mediocrity'? If they hand Josh Smith a near max deal this summer as expected then they are capped out and aren't good enough to be a championship team.

This is indeed the LeBron/KD era and the likelihood of any other team sniffing a championship in the next 5 years is slim to none. If the raptors make the playoffs for the next 3-4 years starting next year then as fans we should be jumping with joy considering the most promising prospect we have won't be close to his prime during those years. Being an above .500 team that makes the playoffs every year is a whole lot of fun as a fan. If that's not enough for you then go and support a Miami or OKC.

Morey didn't spend money on players like Fields, Bargnani, Kappono, Turk, Calderon, and he won almost all of his trades where as Toronto helped facilitate Miami in getting enough cap space to sign their big 3 via the JO trade, and our pick is also owed to OKC to solidify their contention. And all this talk about supporting a playoff team, last time I checked we made the playoff twice in the past 10 years, so we can't mention the Raptors and playoffs in the same sentence.

Asik is overpaid. Houston also has their benefits in tax, weather, Chinese market and etc.
Morey definitely did a good job, particularly drafting players. However, he has his limit, and it doesn't mean he will do a better job in Toronto. Same for BC where he did a great job in Phoenix, but having a hard time signing players in Toronto. Would Morey change that fact? No, he can hardly convince players.

How is Asik overpaid, have you seen him play? A C who is a double double machine with good defense is worth the money he's making, which by the way is less than your boy Andrea. And Morey managed to aquire a ton of draft picks, to set himself up for a superstart trade in Harden, the market didn't dicatate his success, his own hard work and patience did.

[SDM]

So easily placated, this fanbase. You are why we'll never win anything.

Go buy more season tickets, baaaaaaaaaah. More 10th place finishes, please.