The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doing is smart

[hillbilly hare]

I used to wonder why so many people here waste so much of their lives following a bad basketball team they so apparently dislike. I've spent a little time thinking about it and I think the only rational reason why a huge segment of the realgm fanbase keeps religiously posting is that they enjoy the losing. They enjoy it because watching basketball games is not the primary motivation in being a raptors fan

They like the firebc fan petitions and being able to log on here and critique bad trades and signings. They like revisiting past mistakes and of imagining alternate fantasy scenerios of how this team could've ended up if a better GM was in charge...that better gm invariably being themselves. I think more than anything, they like the role playing aspect of being a "real gm". I think the general structure of this forum, the hyperattention to cap details and hypothetical trades supports that idea (as an aside, is there anything more ridiculous than coming up with fake "trades"? Why guys? What is the endgame here? LOL)

The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that the devoted "real gm's" here are engaging in something distinctly different from following a sports team. Maybe something more akin to a sports themed role playing game. Like dungeons and dragons with advanced statistics.

Good post, and it goes back to what a lot of people in this thread have been saying, and is more or less what the original poster said in starting the thread.

The problem is that you and all the others are "wondering" and worrying and thinking about OTHER posters and analyzing them and so on and so forth. Just let it go. Let people come on here and write whatever they want to, including complaining and criticizing. Without you and the others coming in to complain and criticize them, and wonder they're so idiotic and irrational and schizo, i.e., the exact opposite of what you guys are.

We've got people, including ex Mods, coming here and laying down the ten commandments and what is and what isn't, and who is and who isn't a fan. How ridiculous is that? You have something to say, say it. You don't like what people write, don't read it. Or rebut them with your ideas. Why the hell are so many people worried about what makes people write what they write?

As to the bigger picture, when you call into question other people's "fan-ness", try this: I and certainly many others have been Raptor fans for 15 years or more. Please note the phrase, Raptor fans. Not fans of Colangelo, who by the way has been a Raptor fan for about 10 years less than a lot of people here. And who, when he finally gets replaced, will no longer be a Raptor fan. While we go on being Raptor fans for 20 or 30 or 40 more years. And we'll pick up the pieces of whatever shambles Colangelo leaves the team in, and go on cheering for the team, and criticizing any roster that isn't as good and doesn't have as much success as we'd like. The problem is that, unlike Colangelo, we have no say in what roster moves are made. We have no say in the makeup of the team we've cheered for for at least 10 years more than Colangelo has. That's frustrating. To say the least. Though obviously it's part of being a fan of any team. I don't like most of the moves Colangelo has made and I don't like the current roster as much as I'd like a better roster. When I complain I complain about Colangelo's moves that have made the roster less strong than it could be. I complain about the state of the team's present and future, given that we are not very successful in the present (and we have not been successful in the recent past), and the prospects for greater success in the future are less than ideal, due directly to the moves that Colangelo has made up to this point in time.

I'm all for firing Colangelo and getting a "fresh start". That's pretty generic, but to me it means bringing in a guy who comes from a "winning culture" (OKC, San Antonio, etc.) and, more importantly, can look at the current roster with fresh eyes and a new perspective, which might enable him to more objectively assess strengths and weaknesses. I don't think Colangelo is the best man for that job.

[Phenomenologist]

Right, because being bothered about the fact that a fan site that was specifically created to be one of the few places online where Raptors fans can discuss their favorite team without being trolled is McCarthyism.

By the way, insult me again by calling me a moron or worse and you'll find out exactly what it's like to lose your freedom of speech. Terms of service, friendo. This place does still have some rules.

I didn't call you a moron; I implied that you were one.

I understand the difference. Just as I understand that most of the people I've met in life over the age of 25 who've chosen a children's RPG character as their avatar seem to get most of their satisfaction pretending to be something they're not online because their real lives are sad. I usually don't waste my time with such people.

I'm sorry that my prejudices don't resonate with yours and that, consequently, I can't reinforce your delusory world view.

[Double Helix]

This thread basically comes down to this:

If you're upset by the short-term outlook of this team's construction because you feel it's a treadmill team then you should probably also be able to admit that the next several championships are likely going to go to Miami, OKC, or perhaps one other destination (though I'm not even convinced of that).

If you can admit that then what's wrong with being on the treadmill for a few years and rebuilding after Lebron and KD -- two guys who are already working themselves higher and higher up the GOAT rankings -- are on the decline?

It comes down to the fact that many people who hate the outlook of this team think they're wiser than the "homers" at the moment because they think that they think more into the future. It doesn't get any more long-term than planning for what happens after Durant/Lebron are on the decline. If MJ didn't want to try baseball the Bulls might have won 8 in a row and Hakeem may be without a couple rings. That's how dominant he was. What happens if the Durant/Lebron rivalry is reminiscent of past dynasty rivalries and lasts another half a decade?

We will tank again but until then we can all look forward to next year's playoffs and hopefully a second round appearance.

[Raps in 4]

Yes, let's resign ourselves to defeat and continue to sip the BC Koolaid.

[whysoserious]

Back to the main topic...

What makes more sense? Tanking next year, the year after that, and 2015 so that the players acquired in those years (likely aged 19-20) are all asking for lengthy extensions right as Lebron's turning 32 and KD's turning 27, or instead enjoying a couple seasons of playoff basketball during this new Bird/Magic-esque rivalry and instead tanking in 2016, 2017, and 2018 so that those new prospects are all rising up as KD is turning 30?

How long-term are we willing to go? It all ultimately comes down to tanking consecutively at the right time and lucking into the right players in the right draft classes.

This process would entirely be dependent on what happens with Val and how he develops. He has the potential and in 3 years could be a major star at his position. I'm not sure offensively his statistics will be dominant but I think his impact on both offense and defense will make him one of top C's in the league. If he hits that then a few years of making the playoffs now while he's developing is going to be bonus.

I don't even think tanking for three years would be necessary. I would not take any long-term deals though beyond the 2015/2016 season so that you have a bunch of expirings in place to use and acquire picks at the right time and get a bunch of youth together around Jonas and a lot of capspace to target either Wiggins or a couple of stars that hit the FA market to surround Jonas with.

[Double Helix]

I'm sorry that my prejudices don't resonate with yours and that, consequently, I can't reinforce your delusory world view.

Don't apologize. Perception is different for all. You chose the name Phenomenology for a reason, I presume, so you're probably as aware of that as anything. I've learned over the years that debates with philosophy majors on RealGM tend to end with me walking away glad I didn't major in Philosophy, and not necessarily for the obvious reasons.

[Raps in 4]

This thread basically comes down to this:

If you're upset by the short-term outlook of this team's construction because you feel it's a treadmill team then you should probably also be able to admit that the next several championships are likely going to go to Miami, OKC, or perhaps one other destination (though I'm not even convinced of that).

Why can't we compete with those two teams? New players are constantly being drafted into the league that have the potential to be as good. And even if we take this preposterous claim that no team will be able to compete with the likes of Lebron and KD over the next several years, why not start rebuilding now, so that we are ready to compete when those players are leaving their primes?

[Phenomenologist]

Right, because being bothered about the fact that a fan site that was specifically created to be one of the few places online where Raptors fans can discuss their favorite team without being trolled is McCarthyism.

By the way, insult me again by calling me a moron or worse and you'll find out exactly what it's like to lose your freedom of speech. Terms of service, friendo. This place does still have some rules.

I didn't call you a moron; I implied that you were one.

And, look, as a guy that was a former mod on a message board, I know a thing or two about wasting one's time. However, I just can't imagine any bigger waste of time than signing up for a fan site, and posting nothing but reasons why I dislike a certain band, vehicle, TV show, or movie franchise associated with that site.

This isn't politics. Your city, province, and country aren't at stake here. If you don't like what's being offered up there are other service offerings available to you throughout the association. Again, I ask... if you hate everything that's happening with this team RIGHT NOW -- not before, RIGHT NOW -- then why are you still "supporting" this team? What kind of backwards loyalty is that? I hate the Corvettes that Chevrolet has been making... HATE THEM! But I am a fan of Corvette because I liked the model that came out in the late 90s and early 00s. So, I go to the Corvette car shows and boo the new corvettes that are unveiled. I ask people why they're enjoying their new corvettes. I list all the reasons why I don't like the new corvettes because I want everybody to see why I don't like them. I point out all the reasons why I think Lamborghini is better than the new Corvettes. This seems like something a logical-thinking person would do? This is what trolls do.

Lol, what a nonsensical thing to say. You're essentially arbitrarily determining the degree to which I'm permitted to be fanatical. For you, it has to be unfiltered optimism, cherry-picked stats (that, shockingly, have small sample size prefaces every time, essentially invalidating all the "work" you do re: finding trends) ... lemonade out of lemons etc. And, apparently, that is the only acceptable form of fandom.

You know what's illogical? Presuming that someone else is voluntarily partaking of something that they hate because you hate it. That is illogical. By definition, I get something out of this if I'm doing it. But, more, I think my view is quite defensible. I hate BC and have since almost the beginning; and I've been called a troll since, well, all the way back then. Now, as others have come around to his gross incompetence, I'm less pariah and more representative of at least A mainstream view on this board. But that's irrelevant to me.

My position hasn't changed because BC remains incompetent and he remains here. As many others have said, complaining about your franchise, acknowledging how incompetent they are, etc. WHILE STILL BEING A FAN OF THEM AND STILL ULTIMATELY SUPPORTING THEM ... how could there be any higher form of fandom? I mean, according to your world view, they are doing everything right. So what's the big deal, you're supporting something that you agree with ... well, unless the implication is that you're supporting them DESPITE incompetence while trying to frame said incompetence as non-incompetence. Sigh ... even you must see how inconsistent you're being.

And, for the record, I don't hate everything about this franchise. I hate BC and, relatedly, I dislike many of our players, but I also quite like some of our players, enjoy watching the games and, generally, have the kind of irrational allegiance to my hometown's team that anyone has. I like following our team, because watching something grow that you supported through it's tougher times is rewarding to me, obviously. But it's hard to have that kind of hope when the franchise is being "grown" by someone who could be replaced by a chair without loss.

And it's hella ironic that you would call my form of fandom illogical given your own. But things like irony are probably lost on someone as delusional as yourself.

[Phenomenologist]

I'm sorry that my prejudices don't resonate with yours and that, consequently, I can't reinforce your delusory world view.

Don't apologize. Perception is different for all. You chose the name Phenomenology for a reason, I presume, so you're probably as aware of that as anything. I've learned over the years that debates with philosophy majors on RealGM tend to end with me walking away glad I didn't major in Philosophy, and not necessarily for the obvious reasons.

For the record, phenomenology is a form of "continental philosophy" that is akin to mysticism and ... theory and crit. It's complete nonsense. The name is a mock. I just finished a graduate degree in computational linguistics (which, interestingly, is heavily influenced by analytic philosophy, i.e. real philosophy). So, yeah, whatever you say buddy.

EDIT: Oh, and also, Link is not an RPG character. The Legend of Zelda is an action-adventure ... I take offence to it being categorized in any other fashion (that was a joke...I don't really take offence...I'm not a video game character .... ok?).

[hillbilly hare]

Again, let's be wary of thinking we know why other people think the way they do.

There's no problem in my mind with complaining about he current state of the team, and it's short-term future, and considering or at least openly discussing that what we may be doing is "smart", it's just that what we're doing could be "smarter". Last off-season was a huge miss by our GM. It is the farthest thing from "smart" that I can think of. And yeah, I won't stop harping about that, and whoever doesn't want to keep hearing it can just skip over my posts.

There is no need to analyze or criticize people who aren't sold on the outlook of the current team. A lot of people explain why they're not sold. And the reply is sometimes, So go cheer for another team! Go post on another team's forum! What the hell's with that?

I agree 100% that the Heat and OKC via Lebron and Durant are the favorites for the next 5 or 6 years. Lebron and the Heat in particular. Lebron is just that good. I don't really think Durant is on the same level to be honest. But anyway.

I've complained about our GM non-stop and lamented about the current state of the team vs. what could've been. I suggested that if we are indeed going for the playoffs this year, then why shouldn't we have done the Andrea for Boozer trade, for instance. That might've meant playoffs this year and next, which also means keeping our first round picks. It just comes back to your reaction to whatever Colangelo's latest win-now move might be. We are pretty well all-in on Gay and Lowry and Demar, as well as Fields and Amir (both guys untradable), with little prospect of adding above-average talent, though of course we can hope against hope. Andrea isn't the answer. Boozer is better and possibly much better, though is no star. Financially, he and Rudy and Amir and Fields would all expire at the same time. And the difference between his salary and Andrea's is minor.

At this point in time, with this roster and our future cap and draft situation, would Andrea for Boozer have been a good move?

[garbagnani]

Welcome fans who apparently aren't fans of the Raptors as currently constructed. At what point are you no longer a fan of a team when you dislike most of the players on it, the GM, and the coach? There are 29 other teams with message boards, you know. Mind you, not many will win a championship over the next 5 years, but I thought you would have known that since you only think long-term? No? Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that less than 4 different cities will win a championship over the next 5 years. How's that for long-term? I would probably bet on that if the odds made it tempting enough. 26 other cities will all have to settle for various other consolation prizes and goals. Why? You read the subject line. You know the answer to that. It's the start -- START -- of the Thunder/Heat rivalry. Two once in a generation talents are entering their prime years in different conferences and if the Jordan era taught us anything it's that players who are likely to be on a shortlist of the top 25 GOAT-level talents, during their prime years, in this sport, with these rules, can't and won't be stopped.

So, all this talk about how we only deal in band aid fixes and short-term planning are, quite frankly, hilarious to me. If you really view it as championship or bust then it's time to simply wait. Grantland has had articles on this very subject. Everyone else is simply pretending during this era. Many of you view the fans (or homers) of the team that support "mediocrity" with disdain because you feel that in your infinite wisdom you're a better long-term planner. You and only you know what has to happen to beat Lebron and KD. You could have tanked beautifully and hit 3 top 2 picks in a row and likely still wouldn't have the top end talent necessary to knock off either the Thunder or Heat as they enter their primes. Lebron and Durant really are that much better over 7 games. So, quit acting like there was a magic pill solution that we missed out on. Quit acting like simply putting forth one of the more competitive teams this city has seen since Bosh, or VC before that, is such a horrible thing for this franchise in this era. Fans are paying money to watch games at the ACC. You can only sell hope and mock drafts for so long.

The Raptors are a business. Businesses need to make money. Teams make money, build their brand, and reach out to new generations by fighting for the playoffs every once and awhile. Next season is that time. Hell, we'll probably even come close this year by season's end despite digging that huge hole. This is the reality of the situation for the NBA's only non-US team. We have to have treadmill seasons. It's part of being in the NBA. We will tank again but better to time the next rebuild around an in-prime Jonas Valanciunas and an aging Lebron/Wade/KD/Westbrook because it won't matter until then regardless. You want to think and talk about the long term and building a championship winner? Start there. Start 4-5 years from now because all this other armchair rebuilding talk is just as treadmill as the stuff most of you hate with those two teams sitting atop the NBA mountain.

Great post. THis forum is just overrun by the raptor haters you refer to. I watch every game, as do most of my friends, we are real raptor fans. We all enjoy watching this team, we all feel this is best raptors squad in many years. We finally have a team that competes every night, is in every game and is capable of beating very good teams. And we still have Ross and Jonas to Develop (hopefully into allstars). THing are finally looking good in raptorland, despite what this boards says.

[Phenomenologist]

Again, let's be wary of thinking we know why other people think the way they do.

There's no problem in my mind with complaining about he current state of the team, and it's short-term future, and considering or at least openly discussing that what we may be doing is "smart", it's just that what we're doing could be "smarter". Last off-season was a huge miss by our GM. It is the farthest thing from "smart" that I can think of. And yeah, I won't stop harping about that, and whoever doesn't want to keep hearing it can just skip over my posts.

There is no need to analyze or criticize people who aren't sold on the outlook of the current team. A lot of people explain why they're not sold. And the reply is sometimes, So go cheer for another team! Go post on another team's forum! What the hell's with that?

I agree 100% that the Heat and OKC via Lebron and Durant are the favorites for the next 5 or 6 years. Lebron and the Heat in particular. Lebron is just that good. I don't really think Durant is on the same level to be honest. But anyway.

I've complained about our GM non-stop and lamented about the current state of the team vs. what could've been. I suggested that if we are indeed going for the playoffs this year, then why shouldn't we have done the Andrea for Boozer trade, for instance. That might've meant playoffs this year and next, which also means keeping our first round picks. It just comes back to your reaction to whatever Colangelo's latest win-now move might be. We are pretty well all-in on Gay and Lowry and Demar, as well as Fields and Amir (both guys untradable), with little prospect of adding above-average talent, though of course we can hope against hope. Andrea isn't the answer. Boozer is better and possibly much better, though is no star. Financially, he and Rudy and Amir and Fields would all expire at the same time. And the difference between his salary and Andrea's is minor.

At this point in time, with this roster and our future cap and draft situation, would Andrea for Boozer have been a good move?

Yes, exactly. What is the point of a forum of exchange like this if only one very constrained kind of comment is permissible? The whole idea is to generate dialogue, which requires MORE THAN ONE VIEWPOINT. That many of my own posts are negative in tone should not come as a surprise: we've been horrible for a decade now, much of that time coinciding with BCs reign of terror. So why is perpetual negativity only consistent with being a troll and not simply the reality of the situation?

[garbagnani]

There is a type of poster here that will forever be more focused on a players flaws than how he positively impacts the game. Which isn't to say that an optimistic fan is blind to those concerns but if you're winning and your focus is still solely on what areas statistically a player is below league average, then at what point does that cross the line from constructive criticism into trolling? I agree that the focus should be on a teams failings at a time when they are losing and is constructive but if that continues into a time of optimism and winning then to me it crosses that line.

Since the big roster shakeup we've been on a 5 game win streak and beaten some very tough defensive teams and hold a winning record. Right now should be a time to have greater emphasis on this board of the reasons why we're winning. I say emphasis because the concerns still need attention too. Yet right now this board seems really off-balance with its focus far more on the flaws of the players, coaches & management. There is always room for criticism because nothing is ever perfect in sports. But the unwavering line of negativity, rubbishing of our players and focus on every bad management decision by some posters feels really mis-placed with the overall optimism that exists in the fan-base.

We are entering good times and that should be more recognised around here instead of that view being treated by some like the minority voice of the naive.

I agree.

I think people need to keep in mind that there are alot of negative people in the world. There are alot of haters, and knowitalls. Internet forums provide these people with a means to pick fights, hate and constantly undermine coaching and general management (because knowitalls would do a much better job, and they want to prove it). Bottom line, these people are inherently attracted to internet forums, of which, The raptors board is the biggest on realgm. It is a magnet. Unfortunately it doesn't take to many of these people to overrun a board, as they seem to have unlimited time to spit their venom, and hopefully bait someone into an "online fight."

[garbagnani]

Again, let's be wary of thinking we know why other people think the way they do.

There's no problem in my mind with complaining about he current state of the team, and it's short-term future, and considering or at least openly discussing that what we may be doing is "smart", it's just that what we're doing could be "smarter". Last off-season was a huge miss by our GM. It is the farthest thing from "smart" that I can think of. And yeah, I won't stop harping about that, and whoever doesn't want to keep hearing it can just skip over my posts.

There is no need to analyze or criticize people who aren't sold on the outlook of the current team. A lot of people explain why they're not sold. And the reply is sometimes, So go cheer for another team! Go post on another team's forum! What the hell's with that?

I agree 100% that the Heat and OKC via Lebron and Durant are the favorites for the next 5 or 6 years. Lebron and the Heat in particular. Lebron is just that good. I don't really think Durant is on the same level to be honest. But anyway.

I've complained about our GM non-stop and lamented about the current state of the team vs. what could've been. I suggested that if we are indeed going for the playoffs this year, then why shouldn't we have done the Andrea for Boozer trade, for instance. That might've meant playoffs this year and next, which also means keeping our first round picks. It just comes back to your reaction to whatever Colangelo's latest win-now move might be. We are pretty well all-in on Gay and Lowry and Demar, as well as Fields and Amir (both guys untradable), with little prospect of adding above-average talent, though of course we can hope against hope. Andrea isn't the answer. Boozer is better and possibly much better, though is no star. Financially, he and Rudy and Amir and Fields would all expire at the same time. And the difference between his salary and Andrea's is minor.

At this point in time, with this roster and our future cap and draft situation, would Andrea for Boozer have been a good move?

Yes, exactly. What is the point of a forum of exchange like this if only one very constrained kind of comment is permissible? The whole idea is to generate dialogue, which requires MORE THAN ONE VIEWPOINT. That many of my own posts are negative in tone should not come as a surprise: we've been horrible for a decade now, much of that time coinciding with BCs reign of terror. So why is perpetual negativity only consistent with being a troll and not simply the reality of the situation?

Horrible for a decade now doesn't mean we are horrible now. If you think we are horrible now, you clearly don't watch the games. The team is much improved.

[Homer Jay]

I never have a problem with the people who are, " Well I don't like that move, but I hope XX player succeeds anyway, and the team improves". But frankly this place is over run with guys who are more like, " I don't like this move, so I hope XX fails and the team LOSES, so I get to say how right I am!"

[Double Helix]

I'm sorry that my prejudices don't resonate with yours and that, consequently, I can't reinforce your delusory world view.

Don't apologize. Perception is different for all. You chose the name Phenomenology for a reason, I presume, so you're probably as aware of that as anything. I've learned over the years that debates with philosophy majors on RealGM tend to end with me walking away glad I didn't major in Philosophy, and not necessarily for the obvious reasons.

For the record, phenomenology is a form of "continental philosophy" that is akin to mysticism and ... theory and crit. It's complete nonsense. The name is a mock. I just finished a graduate degree in computational linguistics (which, interestingly, is heavily influenced by analytic philosophy, i.e. real philosophy). So, yeah, whatever you say buddy.

EDIT: Oh, and also, Link is not an RPG character. The Legend of Zelda is an action-adventure ... I take offence to it being categorized in any other fashion (that was a joke...I don't really take offence...I'm not a video game character .... ok?).

I was once a child in the 1980s. I'm familiar with what the Zelda series is and isn't and how the genre evolved to such an extent that the game series essentially has to now be considered something else. I'm posting this from a phone on a train leaving Toronto, so I won't be commenting much more in this thread due to the inconvenience. Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Nevertheless, I can't wait to log back in tomorrow, slightly hung over, to see how it all plays out.

[goodjoey]

unfortunately OP i don't think what we are doing was by grand design. I think our GM failed to build a successful team, and we are now doomed to watch as a dynastic rivalry unfolds outside of this city I call home. who's to say lebron or KD wouldn't want to play in toronto if we had the right pieces and a winning pedigree (i know thats a long shot).

i see what you are trying to say, and i appreciate the thought in your post, i just know that our GM has never been the long-term success type, and it is evident that he feels like he can still create a competitive team with a little patience and a whole lotta luck.

I hope for all our sakes that he does have a plan...and you know as well as I do that we are due for some luck.

[Randle McMurphy]

It's not. There isn't anything about these set of moves that Colangelo has made that remotely resembles smart (except perhaps for the sake of building hype and preserving his job a little while longer). But I grant you that was some pretty good rationalizing of mediocrity for a while. I can see why so many buy into the ridiculous sell jobs of his treadmill product.

[Randle McMurphy]

Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Optimistic Raptors fans? I think you mean willfully ignorant Raptors fans. The kind who continue to support a terrible GM after seven years of failure and think a 35 win treadmill team is something more than a 35 win treadmill team just because it has been shined up a little bit (and perhaps even worse, think that kind of team is something that should be aspired to).

[hillbilly hare]

Again, let's be wary of thinking we know why other people think the way they do.

There's no problem in my mind with complaining about he current state of the team, and it's short-term future, and considering or at least openly discussing that what we may be doing is "smart", it's just that what we're doing could be "smarter". Last off-season was a huge miss by our GM. It is the farthest thing from "smart" that I can think of. And yeah, I won't stop harping about that, and whoever doesn't want to keep hearing it can just skip over my posts.

There is no need to analyze or criticize people who aren't sold on the outlook of the current team. A lot of people explain why they're not sold. And the reply is sometimes, So go cheer for another team! Go post on another team's forum! What the hell's with that?

I agree 100% that the Heat and OKC via Lebron and Durant are the favorites for the next 5 or 6 years. Lebron and the Heat in particular. Lebron is just that good. I don't really think Durant is on the same level to be honest. But anyway.

I've complained about our GM non-stop and lamented about the current state of the team vs. what could've been. I suggested that if we are indeed going for the playoffs this year, then why shouldn't we have done the Andrea for Boozer trade, for instance. That might've meant playoffs this year and next, which also means keeping our first round picks. It just comes back to your reaction to whatever Colangelo's latest win-now move might be. We are pretty well all-in on Gay and Lowry and Demar, as well as Fields and Amir (both guys untradable), with little prospect of adding above-average talent, though of course we can hope against hope. Andrea isn't the answer. Boozer is better and possibly much better, though is no star. Financially, he and Rudy and Amir and Fields would all expire at the same time. And the difference between his salary and Andrea's is minor.

At this point in time, with this roster and our future cap and draft situation, would Andrea for Boozer have been a good move?

Yes, exactly. What is the point of a forum of exchange like this if only one very constrained kind of comment is permissible? The whole idea is to generate dialogue, which requires MORE THAN ONE VIEWPOINT. That many of my own posts are negative in tone should not come as a surprise: we've been horrible for a decade now, much of that time coinciding with BCs reign of terror. So why is perpetual negativity only consistent with being a troll and not simply the reality of the situation?

Horrible for a decade now doesn't mean we are horrible now. If you think we are horrible now, you clearly don't watch the games. The team is much improved.

We have not been horrible for a decade.

We are not horrible now, though we aren't really good either. We are much improved from, say, one year ago, primarily because we started from such a low point.

I would be hypocritical to say that part of the makeup of the current roster isn't what I was calling for last June. I wanted Rudy and either Lowry or Dragic. But that doesn't mean that I have to love the rest of the moves Colangelo made. I and others also said in no uncertain terms that the center position had to be upgraded, if we were to make a serious run at the playoffs. I was all for going into win-now mode and not continue waiting on the build thru the draft strategy. Interestingly, I took a lot of heat for this back in June.

It isn't that cut and dried though. It's not like an off-season like last year's comes along very often, and by blowing it Colangelo has closed the window to some extent. He didn't maximize the resources we had last off-season in order to put together a playoff team and now we don't have anywhere near the same opportunity. We are definitely "improved" vs. last June, but we are nowhere near as good as we could be, and the prospects for significant short-term improvement are diminished.