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The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doing is smart

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Post#181 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:46 pm by Double Helix

Phenomenologist wrote:
Double Helix wrote:
Phenomenology wrote:
I'm sorry that my prejudices don't resonate with yours and that, consequently, I can't reinforce your delusory world view.


Don't apologize. Perception is different for all. You chose the name Phenomenology for a reason, I presume, so you're probably as aware of that as anything. I've learned over the years that debates with philosophy majors on RealGM tend to end with me walking away glad I didn't major in Philosophy, and not necessarily for the obvious reasons.


For the record, phenomenology is a form of "continental philosophy" that is akin to mysticism and ... theory and crit. It's complete nonsense. The name is a mock. I just finished a graduate degree in computational linguistics (which, interestingly, is heavily influenced by analytic philosophy, i.e. real philosophy). So, yeah, whatever you say buddy.

EDIT: Oh, and also, Link is not an RPG character. The Legend of Zelda is an action-adventure ... I take offence to it being categorized in any other fashion (that was a joke...I don't really take offence...I'm not a video game character .... ok?).


I was once a child in the 1980s. I'm familiar with what the Zelda series is and isn't and how the genre evolved to such an extent that the game series essentially has to now be considered something else. I'm posting this from a phone on a train leaving Toronto, so I won't be commenting much more in this thread due to the inconvenience. Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Nevertheless, I can't wait to log back in tomorrow, slightly hung over, to see how it all plays out.
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Post#182 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:54 pm by goodjoey

unfortunately OP i don't think what we are doing was by grand design. I think our GM failed to build a successful team, and we are now doomed to watch as a dynastic rivalry unfolds outside of this city I call home. who's to say lebron or KD wouldn't want to play in toronto if we had the right pieces and a winning pedigree (i know thats a long shot).

i see what you are trying to say, and i appreciate the thought in your post, i just know that our GM has never been the long-term success type, and it is evident that he feels like he can still create a competitive team with a little patience and a whole lotta luck.

I hope for all our sakes that he does have a plan...and you know as well as I do that we are due for some luck.
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Post#183 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:42 pm by Randle McMurphy

It's not. There isn't anything about these set of moves that Colangelo has made that remotely resembles smart (except perhaps for the sake of building hype and preserving his job a little while longer). But I grant you that was some pretty good rationalizing of mediocrity for a while. I can see why so many buy into the ridiculous sell jobs of his treadmill product.
One flew east, one flew west, one flew over the cuckoo’s nest.
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Post#184 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:47 pm by Randle McMurphy

Double Helix wrote:Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Optimistic Raptors fans? I think you mean willfully ignorant Raptors fans. The kind who continue to support a terrible GM after seven years of failure and think a 35 win treadmill team is something more than a 35 win treadmill team just because it has been shined up a little bit (and perhaps even worse, think that kind of team is something that should be aspired to).
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Post#185 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:11 am by hillbilly hare

garbagnani wrote:
Phenomenologist wrote:
hillbilly hare wrote:Again, let's be wary of thinking we know why other people think the way they do.

There's no problem in my mind with complaining about he current state of the team, and it's short-term future, and considering or at least openly discussing that what we may be doing is "smart", it's just that what we're doing could be "smarter". Last off-season was a huge miss by our GM. It is the farthest thing from "smart" that I can think of. And yeah, I won't stop harping about that, and whoever doesn't want to keep hearing it can just skip over my posts.

There is no need to analyze or criticize people who aren't sold on the outlook of the current team. A lot of people explain why they're not sold. And the reply is sometimes, So go cheer for another team! Go post on another team's forum! What the hell's with that?

I agree 100% that the Heat and OKC via Lebron and Durant are the favorites for the next 5 or 6 years. Lebron and the Heat in particular. Lebron is just that good. I don't really think Durant is on the same level to be honest. But anyway.

I've complained about our GM non-stop and lamented about the current state of the team vs. what could've been. I suggested that if we are indeed going for the playoffs this year, then why shouldn't we have done the Andrea for Boozer trade, for instance. That might've meant playoffs this year and next, which also means keeping our first round picks. It just comes back to your reaction to whatever Colangelo's latest win-now move might be. We are pretty well all-in on Gay and Lowry and Demar, as well as Fields and Amir (both guys untradable), with little prospect of adding above-average talent, though of course we can hope against hope. Andrea isn't the answer. Boozer is better and possibly much better, though is no star. Financially, he and Rudy and Amir and Fields would all expire at the same time. And the difference between his salary and Andrea's is minor.

At this point in time, with this roster and our future cap and draft situation, would Andrea for Boozer have been a good move?


Yes, exactly. What is the point of a forum of exchange like this if only one very constrained kind of comment is permissible? The whole idea is to generate dialogue, which requires MORE THAN ONE VIEWPOINT. That many of my own posts are negative in tone should not come as a surprise: we've been horrible for a decade now, much of that time coinciding with BCs reign of terror. So why is perpetual negativity only consistent with being a troll and not simply the reality of the situation?


Horrible for a decade now doesn't mean we are horrible now. If you think we are horrible now, you clearly don't watch the games. The team is much improved.


We have not been horrible for a decade.

We are not horrible now, though we aren't really good either. We are much improved from, say, one year ago, primarily because we started from such a low point.

I would be hypocritical to say that part of the makeup of the current roster isn't what I was calling for last June. I wanted Rudy and either Lowry or Dragic. But that doesn't mean that I have to love the rest of the moves Colangelo made. I and others also said in no uncertain terms that the center position had to be upgraded, if we were to make a serious run at the playoffs. I was all for going into win-now mode and not continue waiting on the build thru the draft strategy. Interestingly, I took a lot of heat for this back in June.

It isn't that cut and dried though. It's not like an off-season like last year's comes along very often, and by blowing it Colangelo has closed the window to some extent. He didn't maximize the resources we had last off-season in order to put together a playoff team and now we don't have anywhere near the same opportunity. We are definitely "improved" vs. last June, but we are nowhere near as good as we could be, and the prospects for significant short-term improvement are diminished.
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Post#186 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:40 am by Harry Palmer

Double Helix wrote: Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Nevertheless, I can't wait to log back in tomorrow, slightly hung over, to see how it all plays out.



...and this is again not you telling other people how to think, right? You normally preface one of these 'the only right way to think is like I do' monologues by saying you aren't saying that the only right way to think is like you do. You spend a lot of time telling people there is only one way to be a fan: yours.

You're wrong.

And point of fact, when talking about making other fans miserable, your incredibly poorly constructed arguments bore me to tears.

(Edit: Of all posters on this board since 2004 whose handle is a geometric symbol and who vote YES on anything the Raps do, your posts rank 3rd!!!)


I have until now avoided pointing out how they are almost wholly tautologies out of deference to the fact that you normally do preface your pontification with politically correct nonsense, but apparently you felt the need to try and insult me when I wasn't even in the thread, so **** it.

You try hard, DH. I'll give you that.
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Post#187 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:44 am by DatBoiCapspace

Randle McMurphy wrote:
Double Helix wrote:Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Optimistic Raptors fans? I think you mean willfully ignorant Raptors fans. The kind who continue to support a terrible GM after seven years of failure and think a 35 win treadmill team is something more than a 35 win treadmill team just because it has been shined up a little bit (and perhaps even worse, think that kind of team is something that should be aspired to).


7-3? Yup theyre way worse now. And youre right, there a treadmill team, look at their seven years of failure. Obviously the only solution is to trade all our assets away and tank for a shot a wiggins. Thatll help our re3cord next year for sure!
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Post#188 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:44 am by DatBoiCapspace

Harry Palmer wrote:
Double Helix wrote: Until then, I sincerely hope Harry Palmer finds this thread, introduces himself to you formally, and that there is a surprise along the way where the rest of us learn that the two of you are related in some way. We can then use that discovery and transition into the good ol' nature vs nurture debate and figure out how both of you decided to make life miserable for optimistic Raptors fans everywhere. Was it genetic? Taught? After several pages of riveting wit, and obscure references, you'd both reveal the biggest surprise of all. Neither of you has ever enjoyed a Raptors basketball game ever in your lives and your entire experience on RealGM has simply been an experiment as part of an ongoing thesis on message board addiction. It would explain so much.

Nevertheless, I can't wait to log back in tomorrow, slightly hung over, to see how it all plays out.



...and this is again not you telling other people how to think, right? You normally preface one of these 'the only right way to think is like I do' monologues by saying you aren't saying that the only right way to think is like you do. You spend a lot of time telling people there is only one way to be a fan: yours.

You're wrong.

And point of fact, when talking about making other fans miserable, your incredibly poorly constructed arguments bore me to tears. I have until now avoided pointing out how they are almost wholly tautologies out of deference to the fact that you normally do preface your pontification with politically correct nonsense, but apparently you felt the need to try and insult me when I wasn't even in the thread, so **** it.

You try hard, DH. I'll give you that.


LOL you guys type to fancy for realgm. ITs the internetz chil out bros.
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Post#189 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:59 am by RaptorNews

You all need to chill the **** out with the attacks because either way youre all still fans of the same garbage franchise. Recognize this and adjust accordingly - some will rightfully cry in anger at our hopeless squad and go on to post the same thing everyone else knows a thousand times, others will accept the reality and try to make the best of it, others will deny and become annoying optimists. Your posts or fandom will not affect this teams championships odds - 0%. So before 14 pages of pseudo-intellectual forum battles, realize that you're wasting your time trying to prove anyones way of thinking wrong.

Then again since this team never wins, it must be nice to win on a message board once in a while.
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Post#190 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:36 am by Phenomenologist

RaptorNews wrote:You all need to chill the **** out with the attacks because either way youre all still fans of the same garbage franchise. Recognize this and adjust accordingly - some will rightfully cry in anger at our hopeless squad and go on to post the same thing everyone else knows a thousand times, others will accept the reality and try to make the best of it, others will deny and become annoying optimists. Your posts or fandom will not affect this teams championships odds - 0%. So before 14 pages of pseudo-intellectual forum battles, realize that you're wasting your time trying to prove anyones way of thinking wrong.

Then again since this team never wins, it must be nice to win on a message board once in a while.


Thanks, very informative. You just obviated all message boards and any other form of communication that doesn't result in me being fed food. Well done.
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Post#191 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 am by Hitch22

I agree in part. But I remember a time when I thought no one would beat Boston, then it happened. Its not about being on a tread mill, think of it more of running a race and staying in the front runners draft. Stay there until your read to pass then go by. We need to stay competitive and keep talent wanting to play in T.O. so when the time is right, coast into the lead. (Harder to do than it sounds)
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Post#192 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:04 am by Ted Lasso

Double Helix wrote:All I'm saying is that everyone has a choice and needs to ask themselves why they still consider themselves a Toronto Raptors fan. Why do you watch? If you aren't technically supporting the team then what makes you a supporter?

In the English Premier League, only Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, Aresenal, or Liverpool, ever really stand a chance at winning. In fact, if you look at the past champions almost all of them are from one of those teams.

The other fans know they likely won't win the whole thing every time the season begins but they still cheer the team on and can separate the differences from the top clubs and where they're at and find enjoyment in smaller victories and the matches themselves. That's admirable. That's support.

Trolling every positive fan-related post about a player doesn't seem like support to me. How is that any different than me going to the Bobcats board and writing about the inefficiency of Kemba Walker, or how MKG isn't good enough to take them to the next level, or how the team sucks and how their jerseys suck and how their GM and ownership sucks? Proximity to the city of Charlotte? At what point is a troll a troll? Where he's from?


How about we each submit bios to you, and then you bring each of us in for a quick interview at a time of your choosing, ask all the questions you feel are necessary, and then at the end of the evaluation you let us know whether each of us is qualified to be a Toronto Raptors fan or not?

You could grant fan status to those you've determined are of sound perspective immediately. Others could gain admission on probation and get earmarked for further review down the line. While everyone else would be labelled trolls on an indefinite basis.

Additionally, an official code of conduct for Toronto Raptors fans could help avoid future breakdowns in approach and mentality amongst the fanbase.
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Post#193 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:18 am by DatBoiCapspace

Chandler Bing wrote:
Double Helix wrote:All I'm saying is that everyone has a choice and needs to ask themselves why they still consider themselves a Toronto Raptors fan. Why do you watch? If you aren't technically supporting the team then what makes you a supporter?

In the English Premier League, only Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, Aresenal, or Liverpool, ever really stand a chance at winning. In fact, if you look at the past champions almost all of them are from one of those teams.

The other fans know they likely won't win the whole thing every time the season begins but they still cheer the team on and can separate the differences from the top clubs and where they're at and find enjoyment in smaller victories and the matches themselves. That's admirable. That's support.

Trolling every positive fan-related post about a player doesn't seem like support to me. How is that any different than me going to the Bobcats board and writing about the inefficiency of Kemba Walker, or how MKG isn't good enough to take them to the next level, or how the team sucks and how their jerseys suck and how their GM and ownership sucks? Proximity to the city of Charlotte? At what point is a troll a troll? Where he's from?


How about we each submit bios to you, and then you bring each of us in for a quick interview at a time of your choosing, ask all the questions you feel are necessary, and then at the end of the evaluation you let us know whether each of us is qualified to be a Toronto Raptors fan or not?

You could grant fan status to those you've determined are of sound perspective immediately. Others could gain admission on probation and get earmarked for further review down the line. While everyone else would be labelled trolls on an indefinite basis.

Additionally, an official code of conduct for Toronto Raptors fans could help avoid future breakdowns in approach and mentality amongst the fanbase.


No need to submit a bio, theres a simple questionnare you can take to see if youre a raps fan or not.

Q1) Do you want the Raptors to win? Y/N

If yes, congrats youre a fan.

If no because youre so butthurt that management didnt build the team the way you wanted them too that youd rather see them lose, sorry bro youre a hater.

Haters post here from now on pls ---> viewforum.php?f=20
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Post#194 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:31 am by Double Helix

Wow. The gang's all here. I thought I might see "Death" after "Conquest" whipped out his scholarly achievements. I suspect "Famine," -- I had to nickname him that ironically because of his avatar -- will be here shortly. It's pretty simple, fellas. I didn't create this thread to discuss BC's failings the past half decade or the reasoning behind our past record. I'm here to talk about the team that's closing out this year very strongly, and their potential for next season. I created it to discuss why I think ownership and management made the right call in trying to "win now" instead of attempting another rebuild. There's been some solid discussion on those topics and a bit of a pissing match on what it means to "troll," but here's a brief summary of why I believe the team was smart to break up the losing years with a few "win now" seasons, even though we don't seem likely to win a title:

NBA history indicates that you need at least one top 15 talent in their prime to win an NBA title. Currently, the Heat and Thunder have two of these types on each of their rosters. They play in opposite conferences so they'll never meet before a Final and knock the other out. All roads to the title the next 5 years will likely run through either Miami or Oklahoma.

The Raptors missed the playoffs 5 years in a row. They accumulated lottery talent but none of it had the potential to become a top 15 player in the NBA. This thread isn't about why that happened. It's happened. It's over. We move forward.

With new ownership in place the team could head in one of two directions. They could sell off all assets and attempt a rebuild, hoping to acquire that top 15 talent in subsequent drafts. Most of the players drafted over the next several years would be between the ages of 19 or 20. These players would be entering their primes in the middle of the Heat's decline and the Thunder's dynasty. Or, they could cash in some assets, acquire more win-now talent, and compete in the NBA playoffs for a few years, delaying the rebuild. This has financial implications. It's reasonable to believe that the team will earn more money during the next couple "win-now" years because of increased ratings, merchandise, and playoff revenue. They'll also win back some of the fans they were close to losing because being a bad team for 5 years in a row can alienate an entire generation.

They chose the second option fully when they traded for Rudy Gay and so far the results have been encouraging since that trade. They're 7-3 against some of the better teams in the league and they're more fun to watch. The atmosphere at the ACC last night was electric. Casual fans are talking about basketball again in the city. Another rebuild will come but the players drafted will be entering their prime years on the downswing of the Thunder dynasty.

Given these factors, I believe the direction we've chosen was smart. However, those who disagree seem to want to selectively ignore NBA history and the likelihood that the Thunder and the Heat rivalry could become the next Celtics/Lakers when proposing their arguments about why they disagree with the direction of the team. Many of these people want to dwell only on the Raptors recent past record and get BC out. I can understand why but what I don't understand is why these people come to RealGM to argue about why they believe the Raptors aren't constructed to win a title, and why the treadmill is the worst place to be, while ignoring the truths listed above. They log on and belittle the playoff experience as worthless. They argue with those in the playoff hope thread as wasting their time. They post topics about how we have the worst player in the league. They argue that we should be tanking indefinitely until we secure a top 15 talent completely ignoring the business aspect of basketball. They point to inefficiency in the middle of winning streaks. These people come here to troll.

That's why I asked how people would react if "fans" of their favorite band went to a concert and sat behind them booing and complaining relentlessly about the new songs. That's why I asked how people would react at a Corvette car show if a group of people kept pointing out everything they hated about Corvettes. At a certain point one wonders, "Are you a fan of the team or a fan only of a past era?" What separates you from somebody in another city that actually genuinely dislikes the Raptors coming here trying to agitate Raptors fans? What have you contributed to the community lately that showcases you're not here simply to agitate and annoy people who want to share in their excitement for the only pro basketball team in Toronto? These people seem intelligent enough and familiar enough with NBA history to realize that the chances of any team beating the Heat or Thunder to the title are slim. So, why are they constantly arguing against the Raptors current direction if not to troll? Our options are now limited. The team's direction as of this season seems logical, if not intelligent.
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Post#195 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:27 am by hillbilly hare

It's more a question of where you'd like to be now as a team vs. where we are. Or what you would've liked to get done vs. what was done, especially what was done last off-season. The disappointment over the lost opportunities lingers and is not easy to dispel.

That said, reality steps in. Complaining about the direction or non-direction of the team is just that: complaining. It's our right, of course. And no, I think even those of us who complain a lot are die-hard fans. I really don't think all that many people have the time and energy to waste to come on here and post if they're not fans. Though I've been wrong before.

The Fields signing and the Lowry trade and the Gay trade and the Ross and Acy picks were all done by Colangelo and out of our control. They are fait accomplis. So what's the big debate? We were embarrassing for most of the season, we traded for Rudy and now we're better, maybe enough to sneak into the playoffs in a weak East. Which would be good on a number of fronts, as has been said elsewhere. Plus we'd keep our draft pick, which always helps even if it's in the teens. We'd probably keep it next year too.

That said, I don't know why more win-now folks weren't in favour of the Andrea for Boozer trade. That's a win-now move and the money isn't different enough to worry much about. And Boozer's contracts ends when Rudy's and Amir's and Fields's do.

Boozer is playing well again and is better, maybe a lot better than Andrea right now. Not going thru with the win-now deal, though, might indicate that Colangelo is once again fence-sitting. Not able to commit one way or the other.

The win-now moves Colangelo made and attempted to make in the off-season were brutally inadequate. Trading for Rudy was better late than never, but the only thing it might not be too late to accomplish is to save Colangelo's job.

Double Helix nicely says that the direction of the team "seems logical if not intelligent". That is well put. The failure to move Andrea at the deadline in an effort to win now and bolster the team while we still could, in order to make the playoffs this year and next, and maybe the year after that, seems to me another example of Colangelo's lack of focus and ability to see the strengths and weaknesses of the team clearly. And once again, as people say, Andrea is right in the middle of that lack of objective focus and perspective.

I really do think that Colangelo has to go. Another GM might've had the clarity and perspective to trade Andrea and move forward.
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Post#196 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:27 am by RaptorNews

Phenomenologist wrote:
RaptorNews wrote:You all need to chill the **** out with the attacks because either way youre all still fans of the same garbage franchise. Recognize this and adjust accordingly - some will rightfully cry in anger at our hopeless squad and go on to post the same thing everyone else knows a thousand times, others will accept the reality and try to make the best of it, others will deny and become annoying optimists. Your posts or fandom will not affect this teams championships odds - 0%. So before 14 pages of pseudo-intellectual forum battles, realize that you're wasting your time trying to prove anyones way of thinking wrong.

Then again since this team never wins, it must be nice to win on a message board once in a while.


Thanks, very informative. You just obviated all message boards and any other form of communication that doesn't result in me being fed food. Well done.


I just don't care for these types of threads. You guys are talking about absolutely nothing while flexing your grammar muscles.
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Post#197 Re: The KD/Lebron era and why what we're doin
Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:15 pm by bigbadstevenson

Double Helix wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that less than 4 different cities will win a championship over the next 5 years. How's that for long-term? I would probably bet on that if the odds made it tempting enough.


Everyone would bet on anything if the odds were tempting enough. That's not saying anything at all.

5 years is a reasonable timeline for that kind of prediction, but I don't think that many who wanted the Raptors to tank this year and the next expected a championship in that period. We can rule out the first two years right away, and the next three would be devoted to making the playoffs and building and developing into a championship-worthy team. I think that people want hope for a championship at some point, and recent developments have squelched that. Instead of surging toward the end of that 5 years and beyond, when success is more feasible (as you said yourself) the Raptors have committed to shadowing the Thunder and the Heat, surging in the short-run and declining in a few years.

Two once in a generation talents are entering their prime years in different conferences and if the Jordan era taught us anything it's that players who are likely to be on a shortlist of the top 25 GOAT-level talents, during their prime years, in this sport, with these rules, can't and won't be stopped.


I don't think you understand the concept of singularity. Either there can't be multiple once-in-a-generation talents of the same generation, or "once-in-a-generation" means that these two specific players don't literally have clones in the same generation, and every player is a once-in-history player. Maybe some people thought that Valanciunas, Drummond, and one of a few players in the 2014 class (whom I wonder if you'll be classifying as "once in a generation") could develop into top 3 players at their positions all around the same time. That sounds pretty good to me. Maybe the Raptors could cheat their way into a championship the same way the Mavericks must have since it wasn't possible to beat Lebron James in his prime (or did I dream that they won the championship?).

So, all this talk about how we only deal in band aid fixes and short-term planning are, quite frankly, hilarious to me. If you really view it as championship or bust then it's time to simply wait. Grantland has had articles on this very subject. Everyone else is simply pretending during this era. Many of you view the fans (or homers) of the team that support "mediocrity" with disdain because you feel that in your infinite wisdom you're a better long-term planner. You and only you know what has to happen to beat Lebron and KD.


Shut the f uck up.

That has to be one of the most ill-conceived, condescending passages I've read in this forum. It doesn't take anything like "infinite wisdom" to be a better planner than writers for some website (?) called "Grantland" or another group of Raptors' fans. Maybe I'll go find a writer and some fans who disagree with you and accuse you of believing that you're infinitely wise. On balance, you seem to be more arrogant than most who take the opposing position.

"If you really view it as championship or bust then it's time to simply wait."

Sure, if you're talking from the perspective that we can't do anything ourselves to make the team any better, but, for management, that means that it's time to focus on building for a time when winning a championship is more feasible.

Quit acting like simply putting forth one of the more competitive teams this city has seen since Bosh, or VC before that, is such a horrible thing for this franchise in this era.


There have been only a few teams since Bosh. If this team is only "one of the more competitive teams" in that time period, I'd say that it can still be horrible depending on circumstances that bear on the long-term prospects of the team. What people don't like is that these job-saving moves inhibit their maximal success for quite some time. It's just delaying a real re-build, which is now unlikely to occur at the most opportune time.

This is the reality of the situation for the NBA's only non-US team. We have to have treadmill seasons. It's part of being in the NBA.


Which is it? Because of being a non-US team, or because of being in the NBA? Ugh. Don't make us read this. Put some effort into it.

We will tank again but better to time the next rebuild around an in-prime Jonas Valanciunas and an aging Lebron/Wade/KD/Westbrook because it won't matter until then regardless. You want to think and talk about the long term and building a championship winner? Start there. Start 4-5 years from now because [blah, blah]


Yeah, the Cavaliers should really just blow it up and start over in 4 years, too. They're stupid to expect their team to peak a few years after their young talent enters the league. They obviously (in their infinite wisdom) don't realize that teams and players don't magically develop over the course of several years. Of course, players are play-off ready in their first two years in the league and young teams don't benefit at all from gaining playoff experience together.
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