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If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the Hibb

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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#41 » by daschysta » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:33 pm

MEDIC wrote:Why are people referring to George as a superstar?

Superstars don't average 17.4ppg & shoot .419 from the floor.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.

Great defender.....good rebounder.....good assist numbers, but he's not the 2nd coming of LBJ or Durant.

The raw stats are deceptive. He was 13 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg on 36 percent from the field in November, but that has nothing to do with how good he became. From early december until April...

19.3 ppg
8 rpg
4.1 apg
2 spg
55% TS

That was his level most of the year, and the playoffs backed that up.

19.4 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
55% TS

plus he showed the ability to get to the line at an elite rate in the POs

also led the league in DWS, 3rd behind 2 bigmen in DRTG.

He was All NBA 3rd team for a reason. He wasn't quite a superstar last year, but next season he can easily be a top 10 player.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#42 » by jigga_man » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:35 pm

You have officially went off the deep end

22haytham22 wrote:we are not pacers 2.0 stop reaching


reaching? this is the most random comparison I've ever came across.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the  

Post#43 » by fredericklove » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:41 pm

I rather say Eddy is more Hibbert than Amir to Hibbert, far better rim protecting/post game talent than Amir, better fit to Jonas cos of their dirty work in the paint similarity (far more effective than with Amir and Jonas) and stay on the floor longer without chippy foul. Amir just screams energy big to me, relies more on his hustles what not.

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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#44 » by jonny three time » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:46 pm

fredericklove wrote:I rather say Eddy is more Hibbert than Amir to Hibbert, far better 2 way talent than Amir, better fit to Jonas cos of their dirty work in the paint similarity (far more effective than with Amir and Jonas) and stay on the floor longer without chippy foul. Amir just screams energy big to me, relies more on his hustles what not.

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Well, I got bad news for you. About 6 months ago...
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the  

Post#45 » by fredericklove » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:48 pm

jonny three time wrote:
fredericklove wrote:I rather say Eddy is more Hibbert than Amir to Hibbert, far better 2 way talent than Amir, better fit to Jonas cos of their dirty work in the paint similarity (far more effective than with Amir and Jonas) and stay on the floor longer without chippy foul. Amir just screams energy big to me, relies more on his hustles what not.

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Well, I got bad news for you. About 6 months ago...


What? Wait? Eddy got traded???????? When???? Nobody ever told me!!!!!!!

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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the  

Post#46 » by cdel00 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:49 pm

I see more of pistons type team

Lowry vs billups
DD vs Ripp
Gay vs Prince
Amir vs Sheed
Val vs Big Ben
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#47 » by witnessraps » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:51 pm

Aventador wrote:sighhh, can we stop clinging onto false hope for this very mediocre team? Just accept that we're a middling 7/8th seed and lets do a proper rebuild.


several middling 7/8 seeds became contenders recently...so no.
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Re: Forget size: JV will be our West. Amir is our Hibbert. 

Post#48 » by SkywalkerAC » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:54 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
CanadaB-Ball wrote:
basketball royalty wrote:Don't really see the comparison. Both of our guys are better defensively than West but not quite the factor Hibbert can be because of his size. I think our frontcourt is quicker over all and yes, I expect more scoring out of Val than Amir but that just means we have a nice young C on our team.

In the olden days this was normal with combos of Ewing and Oakley or Hakeem and Thorpe or whatever. It is rare to have two great scoring PF and C, usually one takes the forefront over the other,


Both of our guys are better defensively than a guy who put up a DRtg of 99, a DWS of 4.7, an opponent PER of 12.1, an ON/OFF defensive NET of -1 (which means they scored more when he was off the court than when he was on), a dppp of 0.81 and an opponent FG% of 36? Yeah, I don't think so.


Amir is definitely a better defender than West but JV right now is still a below average defender.


We'll see about that. He may not be on Hibbert's level just yet but this isn't rookie Jonas we're looking at here, it's 2nd year Joans - bigger and better.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#49 » by 22haytham22 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:17 pm

cdel00 wrote:I see more of pistons type team

Lowry vs billups
DD vs Ripp
Gay vs Prince
Amir vs Sheed
Val vs Big Ben


Wow. Just Wow.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#50 » by ScissorMeXerxes » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:06 pm

MEDIC wrote:Why are people referring to George as a superstar?

Superstars don't average 17.4ppg & shoot .419 from the floor.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.

Great defender.....good rebounder.....good assist numbers, but he's not the 2nd coming of LBJ or Durant.

I agree, I think he's being anointed rather prematurely. He made some great plays during the playoffs but was wildly inconsistent. I'm not saying he won't get there, he's still young, let's see if he makes that step this year.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#51 » by Inevitable » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:09 pm

cdel00 wrote:I see more of pistons type team

Lowry vs billups
DD vs Ripp
Gay vs Prince
Amir vs Sheed
Val vs Big Ben


So basically we are clinging onto hope we become that anomaly that doesn't have 1 or more superstars to win a championship.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the  

Post#52 » by SkywalkerAC » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:11 pm

I do agree that we should have more than enough offensive firepower from our frontline, and defense just depends on young Jonas and he's looking much inproved. So...
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#53 » by ScissorMeXerxes » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:16 pm

daschysta wrote:
MEDIC wrote:Why are people referring to George as a superstar?

Superstars don't average 17.4ppg & shoot .419 from the floor.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.

Great defender.....good rebounder.....good assist numbers, but he's not the 2nd coming of LBJ or Durant.

The raw stats are deceptive. He was 13 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg on 36 percent from the field in November, but that has nothing to do with how good he became. From early december until April...

19.3 ppg
8 rpg
4.1 apg
2 spg
55% TS

That was his level most of the year, and the playoffs backed that up.

19.4 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
55% TS

plus he showed the ability to get to the line at an elite rate in the POs

also led the league in DWS, 3rd behind 2 bigmen in DRTG.

He was All NBA 3rd team for a reason. He wasn't quite a superstar last year, but next season he can easily be a top 10 player.

He actually struggled in March and April. I remember there being some concern heading into the playoffs that he was tailing off a little bit. That may have just been fatigue because he was logging a lot of minutes while taking on a lot of responsibility. We'll see, I like him a lot, I'm just not sold on superstar.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the  

Post#54 » by S.W.A.N » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:18 pm

I can see where you are going with the JV Amir combo being equivalent of West Hibbert but I think that most posters are just going to look at the surface differences and say that this is a bad example.


Beyond that I like the idea. I think we need to scrap the whole idea of bringing in a scoring power forward... Jonas is going to need more touches and having a PF that needs the ball is going to take away from the ball going into JV which is starting to look like it will be one of our best offensive weapons.

So if your starting C is an offensive weapon to go along with high volume scoring wings what is the ideal PF ? I would say an energy guy that rebounds and defends well.

Amir and Hansbourgh will both be solid complimentary players for JV, and both fit the pacers model for toughness and defense.


Honestly as much as I think we can use the pacers model for how to build the team I think it would be a mistake to focus on actual player comparisons instead of how they got to be that good.

Smart drafting. No tank but got good bang for buck and had a star fall to them
Good trades
key free agent signing to put them over the top into contender (west)

Solid coaching
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#55 » by ScissorMeXerxes » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:25 pm

I'm willing to bet that Amir won't even be starting. Maybe he will be our version of Tyler Hansborough coming off the bench.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#56 » by CanadaB-Ball » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:37 pm

ScissorMeXerxes wrote:
daschysta wrote:
MEDIC wrote:Why are people referring to George as a superstar?

Superstars don't average 17.4ppg & shoot .419 from the floor.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.

Great defender.....good rebounder.....good assist numbers, but he's not the 2nd coming of LBJ or Durant.

The raw stats are deceptive. He was 13 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg on 36 percent from the field in November, but that has nothing to do with how good he became. From early december until April...

19.3 ppg
8 rpg
4.1 apg
2 spg
55% TS

That was his level most of the year, and the playoffs backed that up.

19.4 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
55% TS

plus he showed the ability to get to the line at an elite rate in the POs

also led the league in DWS, 3rd behind 2 bigmen in DRTG.

He was All NBA 3rd team for a reason. He wasn't quite a superstar last year, but next season he can easily be a top 10 player.

He actually struggled in March and April. I remember there being some concern heading into the playoffs that he was tailing off a little bit. That may have just been fatigue because he was logging a lot of minutes while taking on a lot of responsibility. We'll see, I like him a lot, I'm just not sold on superstar.


Well that's a blatant lie.

He averaged 18.3 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 4.1 assists on .421 percent shooting from the field, .344 from deep and .846 from the line in March.

He did struggle in April (only six games), but he played well in the playoffs.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#57 » by ScissorMeXerxes » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:50 pm

CanadaB-Ball wrote:
ScissorMeXerxes wrote:
daschysta wrote:The raw stats are deceptive. He was 13 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg on 36 percent from the field in November, but that has nothing to do with how good he became. From early december until April...

19.3 ppg
8 rpg
4.1 apg
2 spg
55% TS

That was his level most of the year, and the playoffs backed that up.

19.4 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
55% TS

plus he showed the ability to get to the line at an elite rate in the POs

also led the league in DWS, 3rd behind 2 bigmen in DRTG.

He was All NBA 3rd team for a reason. He wasn't quite a superstar last year, but next season he can easily be a top 10 player.

He actually struggled in March and April. I remember there being some concern heading into the playoffs that he was tailing off a little bit. That may have just been fatigue because he was logging a lot of minutes while taking on a lot of responsibility. We'll see, I like him a lot, I'm just not sold on superstar.


Well that's a blatant lie.

He averaged 18.3 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 4.1 assists on .421 percent shooting from the field, .344 from deep and .846 from the line in March.

He did struggle in April (only six games), but he played well in the playoffs.

Why so sensitive? Blatant lie is rather strong. You must have tapped into my alterior motive to smear George by spreading these vicious rumours. The poster I was responding to made the point that he got stronger as the year went along. I was merely pointing out that this wasn't necessarily the case. I can do stats to, just look at the pre/post all-star stats. I'm actually seeing a minor drop off in some of his numbers. But I will spare the hysterics.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#58 » by cdel00 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:57 pm

Inevitable wrote:
cdel00 wrote:I see more of pistons type team

Lowry vs billups
DD vs Ripp
Gay vs Prince
Amir vs Sheed
Val vs Big Ben


So basically we are clinging onto hope we become that anomaly that doesn't have 1 or more superstars to win a championship.


Nope I'm just commenting on the style.

The biggest difference was Ben being a superstar defender. If Val does defend extraordinarily well the wins will come.
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If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the Hibb 

Post#59 » by Double Helix » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:58 pm

Inevitable wrote:
cdel00 wrote:I see more of pistons type team

Lowry vs billups
DD vs Ripp
Gay vs Prince
Amir vs Sheed
Val vs Big Ben


So basically we are clinging onto hope we become that anomaly that doesn't have 1 or more superstars to win a championship.


As opposed to what? All the teams over the past 13 years who tanked, were the worst team in the league, just so happened to land the first overall pick, beating the 75% odds that they wouldn't, who've each won a title that way?

There hasn't been a single champion the past 13 years who was the worst team in the league, won the draft, and then won the title with that first overall player. The closest thing to that was the Spurs but they weren't even the worst team in the league the year theylanded Duncan. They were third worst, reminding yet again the amount of luck in all this. The Celtics could have had him, or the 76ers, or Nuggets or the Nets. People look back and laugh at KVH now but he was thought to be a stud when he was taken 2nd overall. People saw him as a perennial all star the same way people right now talk about the other picks in this draft. It's always this way before a draft and everybody always looks at the Derrick Williams, Michael Beasleys, Adam Morrisons, Marvin Williams, and Emeka Okafors afterward and acts like it was all so obvious they wouldn't be franchise changers. All the other first overall picks were poached by warm weather climates or legacy franchises that had won the title before 1993. There's a ton of luck (and bad luck) in all of this.

Want to know the recipe to a title win the past 20 years?

* Playing in a warm weather climate

* Playing in a franchise that won a title at least once before 20 years ago if you aren't in a warm weather climate

* Luring other team's stars to your city (many of whom were first overall picks) because of either of the above reasons at the draft (Kobe) or through trades or free agency

* Being lucky enough to draft Michael Jordan or Tim Duncan despite not being the worst team in the league the year they were available

We don't live in a warm weather climate. We aren't a legacy franchise. We either rely primarily on luck or we try to win the way the way the Pistons/Pacers did through elite D, a well balanced attack, and good chemistry, and toughness. Either path has poor odds but we might be further along the path to being the Pacers right now than we are are being the worst team in the league and being lucky enough to land Wiggins. That's probably why Masai is taking a wait and see approach.

There will always be other drafts ahead of us even if we don't land a top 3 in this one. Okafor's cousin is supposedly the best big man prospect in generations. If that's the case he could end up being more valuable to winning basketball than Wiggins anyway. You land a guy like him and you could trade him or Jonas, depending on what's out there.

This draft isn't our last chance at Wiggins (he'll be UFA during his prime) and it isn't our last chance at landing a young stud in the draft. There will be other drafts. But we might have a team that stands a chance of at least matching the best Raptors win total in franchise history that could perhaps see the second round and if you have that kind of team (and we'll know by 20 games in if we do or don't) then you have to push on. We simply don't have enough good years in our history to toss something like that away in the hopes of starting over and maybe, perhaps, if we're lucky, ending up better than that.

That's why Masai wants to see what he has first. If it's crap he blows it up and perhaps we miss out on Wiggins but still get a top 7 pick in a good draft. If it's good maybe he adds to it. That's his call. Not ours. I'm just suggesting it's a possibility. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm not calling him up telling him to do this. He'll do what he wants. I'm just mentioning this might be a possibility. This is a discussion board and we are all just bouncing around things that might happen to the Raptors. Nothing more.
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Re: If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the 

Post#60 » by CanadaB-Ball » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:00 pm

ScissorMeXerxes wrote:
CanadaB-Ball wrote:
ScissorMeXerxes wrote:He actually struggled in March and April. I remember there being some concern heading into the playoffs that he was tailing off a little bit. That may have just been fatigue because he was logging a lot of minutes while taking on a lot of responsibility. We'll see, I like him a lot, I'm just not sold on superstar.


Well that's a blatant lie.

He averaged 18.3 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 4.1 assists on .421 percent shooting from the field, .344 from deep and .846 from the line in March.

He did struggle in April (only six games), but he played well in the playoffs.

Why so sensitive? Blatant lie is rather strong. You must have tapped into my alterior motive to smear George by spreading these vicious rumours. The poster I was responding to made the point that he got stronger as the year went along. I was merely pointing out that this wasn't necessarily the case. I can do stats to, just look at the pre/post all-star stats. I'm actually seeing a minor drop off in some of his numbers. But I will spare the hysterics.


Sensitive? Not in the slightest. Your claim was erroneous, and could have been avoided by checking your facts. Posts like that perpetuate inaccurate information. I simply responded before fallacious comments pertaining to Paul George's performance began to appear on this board with regularity.

You said he struggled in March, I showed he didn't, and you didn't refute that (because you can't) in your latest post. End of discussion.
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