If Casey wants Pacers model JV is the West. Amir is the Hibb

[ballislife]

look im not tryna be a dick or anything but after a while what ur doing get tiresome. ur always pushing down our throat by doing these player comps and choosing stats that fit ur narrative and leaving out others. the pro tankers aren't even as loud as yu. what ur doing screams for attention.

I hear you and I'm not going to be a dick back but some people seem to actually enjoy the "homerish" contributions I bring to the board. You may not be one of them and in fact most of the people that want the team to tank the hardest seem to hate me the most but until they change the name of this board from the Toronto Raptors board to the "draft board" or "tank until you're great board" then I'm well within my right to post some optimistic reasons to like the Raptors. This is a fan site after all.

The problem you have is that you can only talk about a tank so many ways. We've talked about it. Even I've posted the official draft prospect thread now. We've talked about that. We have a million threads on tanking.

Lol Reignman and HankScorpio? Please dude majority of this board can't stand your recent threads, tankers or anti tankers

I don't have a problem with it. I like talking about the team we have, and I'm definitely for not tanking unless we end up sucking hard in the first few months (that's what she said).

I agree that Amir and JV can be close to West and Hibbert. JV has the size of hibbert, but more of the offensive game that West has down low. Amir is more of a tough/hard nosed defender that Hibbert is, but he doesn't have the 7'2" body of Hibbert. Either way, it's a good combination to have. I also think that Hansbrough can be a valuable addition to our team... I think he can avg 11/6-7 on a regular basis.. especially if he can knock down the 15 footer like he says he wants to. We have a good front court compliment to our scoring wings. I'm optimistic that this group can make some noise in the NBA and get some attention.

[hillbilly hare]

We run a higher volume of FGAs through Jonas this year and treat him like he's our main guy, almost how West sees a ton of FGAs, and Amir compliments him and anchors the D just as Hibbert does on Indiana. The sizes and roles may all be different but the duo's strengths are similar and the way they compliment each other is similar.

Jonas has to become either our primary or second option on offense this year. Doing so will radically change the way we operate as a team and improve our offensive efficiency.

Better hope we make some major moves then, because Derozan and Gay are having no part of that and Casey sure won't enforce it at their expense.

(P.S. Your threads are always engaging DH. Don't mind the haters)

I've been saying for a while, usually in the Demar threads, that Jonas should be the 2nd option on offense. That should be a no brainer. We can't have an all perimeter based offense and Jonas has shown some good offensive skills.

Ideally the order of our options on offense should be: Rudy, Jonas, Lowry, Demar, Amir.

Yes, Demar fans, he should be 4th. If Lowry is healthy, Demar is much less skilled offensively than the first three.

[MEDIC]

Lol Reignman and HankScorpio? Please dude majority of this board can't stand your recent threads, tankers or anti tankers

Not true at all. The only people I see complaining about these threads are the kids who oly want to talk about tanking for Wiggins.

If you don't like the topic, just don't read or post. Nobody is forcing you to. Just like any other thread.

Most of DH's threads have created some interesting discussion. Look how long this one is.

look im not tryna be a dick or anything but after a while what ur doing get tiresome. ur always pushing down our throat by doing these player comps and choosing stats that fit ur narrative and leaving out others. the pro tankers aren't even as loud as yu. what ur doing screams for attention.

What's wrong with talking about the current team that we have? You guys are hilarious. Get over it. Go find your little tanking thread & write whatever you want in there.

Keep up the good work DH.

[MEDIC]

Why are people referring to George as a superstar?

Superstars don't average 17.4ppg & shoot .419 from the floor.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.

Great defender.....good rebounder.....good assist numbers, but he's not the 2nd coming of LBJ or Durant.

The raw stats are deceptive. He was 13 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg on 36 percent from the field in November, but that has nothing to do with how good he became. From early december until April...

19.3 ppg
8 rpg
4.1 apg
2 spg
55% TS

That was his level most of the year, and the playoffs backed that up.

19.4 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
55% TS

plus he showed the ability to get to the line at an elite rate in the POs

also led the league in DWS, 3rd behind 2 bigmen in DRTG.

He was All NBA 3rd team for a reason. He wasn't quite a superstar last year, but next season he can easily be a top 10 player.

I have no problem with that assessment. Very fair. He's definitely a player on the rise.

Let's not annoint him a superstar until he actually proves that he is one though.

[hillbilly hare]

Why are people referring to George as a superstar?

Superstars don't average 17.4ppg & shoot .419 from the floor.

He wasn't even the leading scorer on his team.

Great defender.....good rebounder.....good assist numbers, but he's not the 2nd coming of LBJ or Durant.

The raw stats are deceptive. He was 13 ppg 6 rpg 4 apg on 36 percent from the field in November, but that has nothing to do with how good he became. From early december until April...

19.3 ppg
8 rpg
4.1 apg
2 spg
55% TS

That was his level most of the year, and the playoffs backed that up.

19.4 ppg
6 rpg
5 apg
55% TS

plus he showed the ability to get to the line at an elite rate in the POs

also led the league in DWS, 3rd behind 2 bigmen in DRTG.

He was All NBA 3rd team for a reason. He wasn't quite a superstar last year, but next season he can easily be a top 10 player.

I have no problem with that assessment. Very fair. He's definitely a player on the rise.

Let's not annoint him a superstar until he actually proves that he is one though.

To paraphrase a couple of old sayings, if you're only as good as your last games, and if the best show their stuff on the big stage, then George is a whisker away from being a superstar, though I'd say he's already at that level. Can he stay at that level?

Apart from George's very rare double selection to both an All-NBA and All-Defensive team, anyone who saw the final series against the Heat shouldn't have much doubt. George absolutely beasted. Against Lebron and Co., on the toughest stage there is. Like the best stars, he took his game up a notch when it counted.

Though stats don't tell the whole story, let's look:

Defensively, he had the toughest assignment in the game and did pretty well. Even the end of game 1, when Lebron went past him for the winning layup, wasn't all on George. He actually made Lebron go to his left, which was the right move. I put the blame mostly on Vogel, who took Hibbert out of the game.

Offensively, well, how's 19.4 / 6.0 / 5.1 on .441 from 3pt land? Being defended by Lebron. He was also Indy's leading playmaker with those 5 assists a game.

I mean come on. They guy did that at 22. Even if he pulls a Tony Parker for the rest of his career, i.e. very good stats during the regular season, perennial All-star, All-NBA, All-Defensive candidate, but then absolutely beasts in the playoffs, he'd be a potential Hall of Famer. I don't want to talk blasphemy here, but the guy whose game kept coming to mind when I was watching George vs. the Heat, was Scottie Pippen.

N.B. for the outraged, at 22 Scottie was a rookie coming off the bench for 20 mpg. He didn't put up "George-like" numbers until his 3rd season, in the playoffs, when he was 24.

Tough to define a superstar. I would start with the All-NBA and All-D teams though. Sure there's politics involved, but they're usually a pretty good consensus. I think true superstars impact the game on both ends, so let's look at who made both teams. The list is pretty short: Lebron, Duncan, Paul, Marc Gasol. And George. And Dwight will be back there after a down year in LA. Pretty exclusive company. The only complaint would be that if you don't think George deserved those awards.

You can also compare guys to more "consensus" superstars. Who would you rather have, Melo or George? I'd take George. Right now, not even counting the future. Because of his defense and playmaking. Blake Griffin? Don't know if he's considered a superstar, but I'd take George. I'm obviously not talking about older guys like Kobe and D.Wade, because of the age factor. Harden might be a good name. Who would you take, Harden or George? Tough call. As of right now I'd probably take Harden, but ask me in a year.

[Double Helix]

I realize Rudy Gay vs Paul George tends to be the most heated aspect whenever comparisons to the Pacers come up but from here on out let's try to keep the discussion related to the OP which deals specifically with the upside of the Jonas/Amir front court pairing.

It seems that even many people who want a fire sale and tank are Amir fans and would entertain the idea of keeping him if it was possible to creatively tank while still keeping him around.

So, no matter what direction Masai chooses, or which direction you prefer, the question becomes do you think the Amir/Jonas front court has the potential to become one of the more dominant ones in the NBA because of how they compliment each other? Or, do you think the team needs to have more scoring at PF despite Jonas developing into a secondary scorer in his own right? The list of PFs out there with better D and better offense than Amir isn't particularly long so if you choose a more offensive-minded PF than you will probably pay for it defensively. I think that this is perhaps the biggest reason why Masai wasn't at all interested in David Lee.

[Tacoma]

So... why do we need Raptor equivalents of Pacers players?

Jonas will be our Jonas.

Amir will be our Amir.

The current coach of our favorite team has suggested that the Pacers are our model. ...

The current coach of our favorite team also said in training camp last season that Bargnani put on 15lbs of good weight to play PF, which didn't make any more sense then than it does now. I'd put no weight in what Casey says and not at all confident in his abilities as a Head Coach.

I respect your optimisim and persistence dh but brah yu gotta lay off creating threads. this becoming like propaganda now lmao

It's called bias. I'm a Raptors fan that likes blue collar teams and I mentioned the Pacers comparison before even Casey did and we started adding guys like Augustin and Hansbrough. I'm definitely biased and I'll fully admit that but it's no different than the 50 propaganda threads for Wiggins or tanking that are out there. Everybody is biased in some way.

Oh puleeze!.... You were a hardcore BC and Bargnani supporter and BC's teams were anything but blue collar, and Bargnani is the poster boy for anti-blue-collar. And spinning this to say your posts as merely "biased" while others are spewing "propaganda" is a disservice to your cause. I do admire your optimism and persistence though. I guess if you say it enough times, it will come true just by the laws of probability.

[Double Helix]

So... why do we need Raptor equivalents of Pacers players?

Jonas will be our Jonas.

Amir will be our Amir.

The current coach of our favorite team has suggested that the Pacers are our model. ...

The current coach of our favorite team also said in training camp last season that Bargnani put on 15lbs of good weight to play PF, which didn't make any more sense then than it does now. I'd put no weight in what Casey says and not at all confident in his abilities as a Head Coach.

I respect your optimisim and persistence dh but brah yu gotta lay off creating threads. this becoming like propaganda now lmao

It's called bias. I'm a Raptors fan that likes blue collar teams and I mentioned the Pacers comparison before even Casey did and we started adding guys like Augustin and Hansbrough. I'm definitely biased and I'll fully admit that but it's no different than the 50 propaganda threads for Wiggins or tanking that are out there. Everybody is biased in some way.

Oh puleeze!.... You were a hardcore BC and Bargnani supporter and BC's teams were anything but blue collar, and Bargnani is the poster boy for anti-blue-collar. And spinning this to say your posts as merely "biased" while others are spewing "propaganda" is a disservice to your cause. I do admire your optimism and persistence though. I guess if you say it enough times, it will come true just by the laws of probability.

.

I like the idea of a blue collar team specifically because we've seen where all offense and no defence got us and it is nice to finally have a group of guys who have the talent and the will to impact the game on the defensive end of the court.

I tend to get more guesses right with this team than wrong though. BC's end of season press conferences read like SOTDs that I had shared months in advance. Before the new talking points of the season from Casey became the Indiana Pacers and the amount of teams in the finals that were all defensively elite I had also shared both of those facts with this board.

I often write less on what I want and more on what I think the organization will see and how they'll react. It's why I tried to warn you all that a firesale wasn't coming and that the foursome of Rudy, Amir, Jonas and Kyle would remain intact to start the year.

I figured Bargs would go. I still think Demar could be the first piece moved in an attempt to get better but it's starting to seem like he could stay too.

I try to temper expectations mostly because there's nothing worse than this board when it's blind-sided by a surprise and everybody is pissed off about it (T-Ross draft pick, Charlie V draft pick, Hoffa draft pick, etc). If everybody hates a guy like Bargs but I know he's not going to go anywhere for years I try to find a bright side since it's all out of our control anyway. Sometimes, that optimistic view proves correct as it did when Amir Johnson's contract was first being blasted on here and others were pointing to his PER, age, work ethic and defence as examples where he could justify the deal. Other times it hasn't. It was pretty obvious BC wasn't going to get rid of Bargs in the early years. He was too personally invested with his own ego to admit that he could have picked better. We could have just ALL complained for years and felt like crap about him being here, or try to make the most of it since it was out of our hands. When I lack control over something I try to make the most of it and since the Raptors are one of my favorite distractions I don't like that distraction ruined with constant negativity, so I try to find silver linings.

If you're around long enough on RealGM and project long enough, you're going to get some wrong and I've admitted as much when it comes to Bargnani. I can't tell you how good it was to be rid of him and to be honest with you I gave up trying to see the bright side with him the moment it seemed logical to believe he'd be moved about 18 months ago.

The optimism is how I cope with things that are out of my control.

[RedX]

No need to compare them individually. The hope is that Jonas and Amir together will provide better defense and more rebounding with more efficient scoring than West and Hibbert. I don't think they will ever be as talented offensively, but that's ok.

What do you mean? Hibbert isn't really an offensive gem. West is pretty great, but I don't think it's too far of a reach to say Val can be better than him sooner rather than later.

[orangutooth]

except at pg, we have a worse player at every position when compared to the pacers. i'm tired of trying to build knock off made in china versions of other teams.

[Double Helix]

except at pg, we have a worse player at every position when compared to the pacers. i'm tired of trying to build knock off made in china versions of other teams.

I can understand this complaint.

Phoenix North
Indiana Pacers North

What about us building our own unique team, right? Well, this is a copycat league and it seems they're entertaining this so I'm trying to see how it *could* potentially work.

You can complain about it. You can dream about the perfect tank. Or you can try to see the bright side of what they're trying. The choice is up to you.

[DanBootleg]

We're missing Paul George, and a lockdown wing defender like Stephenson.

[timdunkit]

i haven't had time to read the entire thread (just the opening post, so sorry DH if you addressed some of these).

I think looking from it from a statistical point of view has it flaws because your missing the big impact that Hibbert/West have. The play in a team oriented type system which lowers there individual stats.

For example, if Hibbert/Amir are similar defensively in terms of impact (or JV), do you think they would make Lebron start attempting floaters? Are they the defensive threat that Hibbert really is? while they are decent shot blockers, I also don't think they are the paint protectors or alter the amount of shots Hibbert does.

The same could be said offensively, where JV is nowhere close to West. West is nifty and has an above average all around game. The ability to post up back his man down, face up and take him of the dribble, spot up and shoot and play the PnR/PnP game. And of course their both unselfish passers that make plays and decisions for others (something the team is having JV learned to do and Amir hasn't done much of it).

While I do think that West/Hibbert are more skilled then Amir/JV, Amir and JV are more athletic and more suited for a running game then a grind out brawl.

[hillbilly hare]

except at pg, we have a worse player at every position when compared to the pacers. i'm tired of trying to build knock off made in china versions of other teams.

I can understand this complaint.

Phoenix North
Indiana Pacers North

What about us building our own unique team, right? Well, this is a copycat league and it seems they're entertaining this so I'm trying to see how it *could* potentially work.

You can complain about it. You can dream about the perfect tank. Or you can try to see the bright side of what they're trying. The choice is up to you.

If there is any point to this thread, I think the phrase "Pacers Model" has to refer to a general idea but one which can be used here. Two things really. First, the model used to build the team. We've discussed ad nauseum how to build this team (rebuild is a non sequitur), given the fact we are not a FA mecca. So we have to use all channels, i.e. draft in particular (a gem in the late first is worth a lot to us, we can tie him up for 5 years), accumulating trade assets, hoarding cap space, which can be used to sign guys, to sign and trade them, or to trade pure cap.

As a smaller market, non glitzy city like TO, Indy has done a good job use every possible channel. They have drafted fantastically, though it's really depressing to recall that some of their great picks have been made possible by our last 2 inept GMs. See, Granger and Hibbert. Those guys were picked just outside the lottery, and George was picked late lottery. Stephenson was picked in the 2nd. The Hibbert pick was acquired via trade, which was a fantastic trade for the Pacers, much less so for the other team. West was an excellent FA signing, made possible by maneuvering cap space to that specific off-season. Hill was acquired for a valuable trade asset, i.e. the pick that was Kawhi Leonard, but Bird got his playmaker. At a cost, of course.

The other part of the Pacers model is coaching. Vogel has been outstanding. They play winning playoff basketball with defense and rebounding. That was what Casey was supposed to do here, but the jury is still out.

Bottom line. We need better players. Doh! And we need better defense. Double doh! We got those and we're on our way! Though I guess 25 other teams could say the same thing.