Young Centers

[Hero]

I think Jonas is being overrated a bit on these boards. I still wouldn't put him on the level of Vucevic or Drummond. Maybe it's the fact that he doesn't get enough touches and is lost on the floor sometimes and still has a lot to improve on. Good that he is only heading to his third year though.

Jonas is overrated and isn't on the level of Drummond, yet Drummond hasn't done ANYTHING yet. Dude rebounds and dunks. That's. About. It.

And I like Drummond, I think he'll be good. I just don't know where that came from. Especially considering Jonas played much better against Drummond in all their match-ups last season except one.

Rebounding and dunking is part of basketball. A big part. A center who is an elite rebounder is nothing to laugh about. Look at how much Andrea's lackluster rebounding has cost us.

[DrCoach]

In 4-5 more minutes per game playing next to a dim log.

The stats gap would look significantly less worse if Jonas played 32 minutes a game like Drummond and had another 1.5 field goal attempts per game. Also, Jonas won't ever average more blocks because he's not a leaper but when you look at advanced rim protecting stats, Jonas is "criminally underrated". He's a lot farther along in basketball skill and knowledge than Drummond and it's a big reason why we won 48 games last year.

Drummond has a PER of 23

[Jstock12]

In 4-5 more minutes per game playing next to a dim log.

The stats gap would look significantly less worse if Jonas played 32 minutes a game like Drummond and had another 1.5 field goal attempts per game. Also, Jonas won't ever average more blocks because he's not a leaper but when you look at advanced rim protecting stats, Jonas is "criminally underrated". He's a lot farther along in basketball skill and knowledge than Drummond and it's a big reason why we won 48 games last year.

Drummond has a PER of 23

Man do I hate that crappy offense driven stat that doesn't even tell the whole story.

[godkingleonidas]

You forgot about Anthony Davis. I also think Nerlens Noel deserves a mention.

A. Davis is a PF
When Noels plays a game same as Embid
Vucevic is a good C but he is also a little older but should have he like compares with Favors.

You're in the zone. Ride the hot-hand 'til she breaks.

[SHFT]

TOP 5 C

1. DWIGHT (BEST DEFENSIVE C, STILL A BEAST)
2. BIG AL (MOST UNSTOPPABLE BIG MAN IN THE LEAGUE)
3. COUSINS
4. NOAH
5. MARC

TOP 5 PF

1. BLAKE
2. LOVE
3. AD
4. ALDRIDGE
5. DIRK

I would put Noah ahead of everyone on that list. Man does everything.

[BrunoSkull]

They all look flawed, Drummond and Favors are raw, Cousins is a headcase, Jonas has a lot of work to do. I think Embiid is the guy who will dominate this competition in 2-3 years.

[DrCoach]

In 4-5 more minutes per game playing next to a dim log.

The stats gap would look significantly less worse if Jonas played 32 minutes a game like Drummond and had another 1.5 field goal attempts per game. Also, Jonas won't ever average more blocks because he's not a leaper but when you look at advanced rim protecting stats, Jonas is "criminally underrated". He's a lot farther along in basketball skill and knowledge than Drummond and it's a big reason why we won 48 games last year.

Drummond has a PER of 23

Man do I hate that crappy offense driven stat that doesn't even tell the whole story.

Critics of Drummond say he has no offense

What story do you want to tell?

[mrsocko]

Seeing as we made the playoffs with a center with a PER of 16 and Detroit was lousy with a center with a PER of 23 I would say PER does not tell the whole story. You would think that with that monster center they would be at least a .500 team.

Shaq always carried his teams to good records. Baby Shaq ain't cuttin it yet.

[Thespianoid]

Drummond has a PER of 23

Man do I hate that crappy offense driven stat that doesn't even tell the whole story.

Critics of Drummond say he has no offense

What story do you want to tell?

Here's my understanding.

Drummond has little offensive skill. Everything he does is instinctual and takes advantage of his immense natural talent - rebounding, dunking, moving off the ball. He has ridiculous potential given just how unskilled he is. He's already producing offensively at a historic rate in a garbage-man role. What could he do if he developed some skill and had a larger role? Can he develop that skill and turn into an all-around monster? Or will he top out as an ultra impactful garbage man?

Defensively, many Pistons fans say he's not good at all, aside from his instinctual blocks and steals. Poor awareness and positioning, a massive work in progress. Their frontcourt of Monroe/Drummond was a defensive disaster. He's got the athleticism and instincts to be a terrific rim protector, but will he develop the intelligence and floor awareness? Working with Stan Van Gundy may turn out to be just what he needs.

[DrCoach]

Seeing as we made the playoffs with a center with a PER of 16 and Detroit was lousy with a center with a PER of 23 I would say PER does not tell the whole story. You would think that with that monster center they would be at least a .500 team.

Shaq always carried his teams to good records. Baby Shaq ain't cuttin it yet.

This might be the stupidest argument I have read this year

[Illmatic12]

You forgot about Anthony Davis. I also think Nerlens Noel deserves a mention.

A. Davis is a PF
When Noels plays a game same as Embid
Vucevic is a good C but he is also a little older but should have he like compares with Favors.

Vucevic is the same age as Cousins. And these are big men we're talking about, none of them are even near their peak at age 20-24.

It's not like guards/wings where you expect them to show a certain level of production by their age 23 season or so. Bigs get a little more leeway.

You definitely have to include Vucevic in the list of top young centers. Not a great defender but very offensively skilled and can rebound, dude has put up some 20/20 games

[HeirCanada10]

Isn't Favors' natural position PF though? Correct me if i'm wrong

[RealRapsFan]

Seeing as we made the playoffs with a center with a PER of 16 and Detroit was lousy with a center with a PER of 23 I would say PER does not tell the whole story. You would think that with that monster center they would be at least a .500 team.

Shaq always carried his teams to good records. Baby Shaq ain't cuttin it yet.

I don't think you can escape the quality of the team and somehow try and create a relationship entirely between these two players, and the wins/losses of the entire team. Particularily with how rarely very young (inexperienced) players, like Drummond and Val, positively impact a team.

Drummond vs team

Ortg + 0.7
Drtg -1.3
Net -0.6

So Drummond while being a positive to the team came out as an overall negative due to defense. Hardly a suprise his area of weakness right now is on that end, particularily from a 2nd year C


Jonas vs team

Ortg +0.4
Drtg -1.3
Net -0.9

Similar situation as above.

The one difference between the 2 however is the spread between their teammates and them is quite a bit different. In the starting line up the spread between Drummond and starters is less than 1 pt per 100 possessions, between Jonas and starters its 2.1 - meaning that Jonas' most common floor mates could be having a bigger impact pulling his #s up, vs their respective teams at large.

As for total team success, a significant (the most significant?) reason for its wins can be placed squarely on the Raptors bench being much better than opposition benches. (namely Patterson (+6.4), Vasquez (+5) and to a lesser degree Hayes (2.3)).

So in summation, your argument as to why PER doesn't tell the whole story is more or less.... uhhh..... questionable.

Now that I've said all that, PER doesn't tell the whole story... and I don't believe it to be a very informative statistic. Although it is quite interesting that a low usage player comes out so well in PER. Usually they don't as PER tends to reward usage too favourably (although I think in this case its Drummond's ridiculously high offensive rebounding rate that does it)

Shaq always carried his teams to good records. Baby Shaq ain't cuttin it yet

Shaq was also a year older, 2 or 3 inches taller, and 30+lbs heavier. Came into the league 20 years prior, in a different era with different rules. Plus, Shaq was arguably the most dominant player in league history. Tough standard to meet in order to 'cut it'.

[...c.a.p...]

Excel is your friend.


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[Dukenukem23]

Vucevic is definitely better than Valanciunas. I watched them go head to head last year and Vuc clearly had the upper hand. Maybe Jonas can catch up, being younger and all but right now I think Raps fans are really overrating the young Lithuanian.

Best Young C's in order. 23 and younger

1.Drummond
2.Favors
3. Vucevic
4. Valanciunas
5. Adams

[blitz41]

I love drummond, the guy has tons of hustle and is a one man team rebound. That being said, he is one leg injury away from almost complete irrelevance due to his lack of any fundamental skills. Also player development is a bit of a misnomer, there was an article a few months ago about the Spurs and their drafting philosophy (i wish i could find it now) which essentially is that you cannot teach a new dog old tricks. If the man comes out of college without any fundamental skills, thats pretty much the way he stays, you might add a move here or there, but its nothing game changing. Their exception is mostly leonard, and in his case their shooting coach was there breaking down his shot, like the day after he was drafted, so that he would have the new fundamental come training camp.

Kobe/LBJ/Jordan (and demar as a fan boy lol) are prob the very few true exceptions to this rule as they have added rather strongly to their game, esp as they age.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Seeing as we made the playoffs with a center with a PER of 16 and Detroit was lousy with a center with a PER of 23 I would say PER does not tell the whole story. You would think that with that monster center they would be at least a .500 team.

Shaq always carried his teams to good records. Baby Shaq ain't cuttin it yet.

I mean I think we're indifferent to whether or not we had jonas or chuck hayes. I don't think jonas lead us to the playoffs by any extent. Also his plus minus was pretty horrible compared to every other starter we had. We basicly outpreformed teams when he was sitting.

[bstein14]

Pistons fans who watch Drummond would gladly give him a $100 million dollar contract... He's a franchise player who just turned 21. How many Raptors fans feel Jonas is worth $20 million a year for half a decade?

[Rapsfan151]

Pistons fans who watch Drummond would gladly give him a $100 million dollar contract... He's a franchise player who just turned 21. How many Raptors fans feel Jonas is worth $20 million a year for half a decade?

Just because Detroit fans want to give a lot of money to a player doesn't mean a player is a lot better than a different player. Last time I checked fans don't make decisions regarding players and contracts.

Detroit fans probably want to give him a big contract because the team has nothing else going for them and they can't let an asset be lost.

[Throwback24]

Adams deserves some love.