What is the Triangle Offense?

[Kevin Willis]

Just watch some Raptors videos from 1996. Darrell Walker had the Wizard, Popeye, Big-O and the boys running it to perfection.

Random fact, Popeye's son played for the U.S. Junior hockey team...

Popeye's son plays in the NHL actually.

[Kevin Willis]

I have to say that this is a great thread so far. Very informative.

This is a question to some of the more astute posters on this board - did the Heat ever try to run a triangle-type offense with LBJ, Wade and Bosh? Just based on the premise alone, this seems like the perfect system for someone with LBJ's BBIQ and skillset. If the Heat had run the triangle, their glaring weakness - the lack of an effective PG - should have been minimized.

Triangle with Bosh - James - Wade on one side and shooter / rebounder on the weak side would be effective. The IQ of those three would make it very hard to guard. Plus you could alternate who initiates it with either one of the three in any of the positions since they all can go in the post, shoot the three and use their athleticism to create space.


I'm also confident in saying that Melo, Fisher and Jackson all know this is a lost year because of personnel. They improved their IQ with Jose but the pieces aren't there to run it effectively consistently. But if Melo can learn and other key pieces that will have it going forward learn then that's a solid foundation.

[BorisDK1]

I'm going by my understanding of Jackson's interpretation of the triangle. It might be a simple concept, boiled down to its fundamental precepts, but in terms of actual execution ...

Jackson is a master of mystification of his own methods. He is a PR genius and gets the media to attach an undue amount of gravitas to his own pronouncements. You just have to filter out his spin from reality.

Proper execution is 100% what makes the Triple Post (or any offense) work. Having a continuity offense does help limit the tendency of players like Jordan or Kobe from freelancing to a great degree and reducing their teammates to spectators, and Phil has used that very effectively to involve more people more frequently offensively (and Jordan, when he became a more willing cutter and screener, became an even greater scorer). But they might have had the same success using the same principles with John Wooden's High Post Offense (which is eerily similar to the Triple Post in its continuity action) or the Flex or anything else.

Yeah, I should've said "playmaking" instead of just "passing" - it's more apt for the specific ability I had in mind.

On a side note - I don't doubt that specific actions within the triangle become second nature to the players who've proven proficient at it. I'm just skeptical that the necessary "understanding"/ability to execute the right play at the right time is easily achievable for most players, or even achievable at all for many players.

It's really not that complicated when taught properly. It's just that the entries are predictable, and players have to stay alert and stay in rhythm when the defense chooses to disrupt them. For instance, in the 2008 Finals, Boston very effectively pressured the primary ballhandler (whether they chose to use Fisher or Odom - an old Jackson-Winter trick when pressure got too hot on the PG was to have the SF bring the ball up the floor) and denied the point-to-wing entry pass well and for whatever reason(s) the Lakers would be late in transition and mentally collapse. They wouldn't get into their first formation of the sideline Triangle until there was 9 seconds left on the clock.

The basic point is to get the ball onto the wing and form a sideline triangle (wing-corner-low post). There's umpteen dozen ways you can do that, and the players are entirely free to form that however they feel is most advantageous to the team. Once you get that set up, you have four consecutive options:
1) put the ball into the low post;
2) reverse the ball to the second guard;
3) Bring the power forward up as a pressure release and back-cut the guard;
4) Put the ball into the corner and play out of a corner ball screen.

That's the Triple Post offense. Phil Jackson won't put it in terms that simple, but that's really all there is to it. If you fill the five spots on the floor, the rest is just patterned flow. Easy-peasy. How you get to form that sideline triangle varies, but that's the offense once you get there. It's remarkably basic, and can even be established quickly in transition.

[OvertimeNO]

The basic point is to get the ball onto the wing and form a sideline triangle (wing-corner-low post). There's umpteen dozen ways you can do that, and the players are entirely free to form that however they feel is most advantageous to the team. Once you get that set up, you have four consecutive options:
1) put the ball into the low post;
2) reverse the ball to the second guard;
3) Bring the power forward up as a pressure release and back-cut the guard;
4) Put the ball into the corner and play out of a corner ball screen.

That's the Triple Post offense. Phil Jackson won't put it in terms that simple, but that's really all there is to it. If you fill the five spots on the floor, the rest is just patterned flow. Easy-peasy. How you get to form that sideline triangle varies, but that's the offense once you get there. It's remarkably basic, and can even be established quickly in transition.

The question then is, why have non-Jackson teams struggled to implement it? I'm genuinely curious. And from my reading of the Knicks board (at least, the reasonably sane ones) there seems to be an issue of certain players being "naturals" at the system and others being exposed as completely clueless.

I just wonder how generally the system can be applied to any roster, or if - despite the simple-seeming nature of its fundamental concepts - it really does require a more specialized, or at least smarter, lineup?

[BorisDK1]

The question then is, why have non-Jackson teams struggled to implement it?

A combination of poor teaching and poor personnel.

You cannot be a thinker and function effectively in that offense. You have to be a knower. This is reason #562 that Bargnani is going to flame out in New York this year. You have to know how to form up your post-up (which is HUGE in creating and establishing the spacing) on the line of attack and do it every single time. You have to know to recognize the "Moment of Truth" and make a quick decision regarding pressure releases. You have to trust your teammates that reversing the basketball will not prevent the spots from being filled. He who hesitates is going to be on the bench.

Good teaching (which Winter and Jackson did, obviously) boils everything down to its simplest and clearest form. It makes it intuitive for players. We'll see if D-Fish can do that as well.

The Triple Post Offense is designed to reward teams who work instinctively and works really well (by NBA standards) if the two post players are really good offensive rebounders, and helps mitigate the damage of being a poor perimeter shooting team.

I'm genuinely curious. And from my reading of the Knicks board (at least, the reasonably sane ones) there seems to be an issue of certain players being "naturals" at the system and others being exposed as completely clueless.

I think that is going to be a huge issue for the Knicks.

I just wonder how generally the system can be applied to any roster, or if - despite the simple-seeming nature of its fundamental concepts - it really does require a more specialized, or at least smarter, lineup?

It does require a knowledgeable team who is prepared to simply respond to what is offered by the defense as opposed to doing whatever the hell you think might be right. Some of the deep reads (like, what the passer is supposed to do following the entry pass to the strong-side low post) do get very involved and will not be executed properly by thinkers. It's hard to get guys consistently alert and reading the swivel of the head of their defender after the pass and reacting properly. It's a nightmare to defend the options that come out of that (flare-splits are remarkably difficult both to execute but even more so to defend), but you have to get the guys prepared to recognize what it is that the defense is doing and not try to do the spectacular thing every time.

[OvertimeNO]

Thanks for that, Boris. I do find it interesting to read that Rambis is on board too, and that he and Fish are teaching position-specific aspects of the triangle.

Apparently, Calderon, Shumpert, and Acy are doing well in the triangle. Melo's getting by. Amar'e is convincing even his most steadfast supporters that he needs to GTFO. And Bargnani has been too hurt to show anything, but lol.

[BorisDK1]

Thanks for that, Boris. I do find it interesting to read that Rambis is on board too, and that he and Fish are teaching position-specific aspects of the triangle.

Apparently, Calderon, Shumpert, and Acy are doing well in the triangle. Melo's getting by. Amar'e is convincing even his most steadfast supporters that he needs to GTFO. And Bargnani has been too hurt to show anything, but lol.

Acy should actually look really good in NYK this year. I'd like to see him get that ORB% up closer to 11% than 9%, and keep his shot-blocking rather closer to 4% than 2% and he could very easily become a long-term option at PF for them.

[OvertimeNO]

Thanks for that, Boris. I do find it interesting to read that Rambis is on board too, and that he and Fish are teaching position-specific aspects of the triangle.

Apparently, Calderon, Shumpert, and Acy are doing well in the triangle. Melo's getting by. Amar'e is convincing even his most steadfast supporters that he needs to GTFO. And Bargnani has been too hurt to show anything, but lol.

Acy should actually look really good in NYK this year. I'd like to see him get that ORB% up closer to 11% than 9%, and keep his shot-blocking rather closer to 4% than 2% and he could very easily become a long-term option at PF for them.

People compare Acy to guys like Reggie Evans or JYD all the time because of his motor or whatever, but from what I've read he's closer to Rodman: takes a very cerebral approach to what many mistake as simple products of energy, eg. boards and defence. That he researches opposing player's tendencies in order to exploit their weaknesses on the offensive end isn't something you hear about too often.

[martypython]

Thanks for that, Boris. I do find it interesting to read that Rambis is on board too, and that he and Fish are teaching position-specific aspects of the triangle.

Apparently, Calderon, Shumpert, and Acy are doing well in the triangle. Melo's getting by. Amar'e is convincing even his most steadfast supporters that he needs to GTFO. And Bargnani has been too hurt to show anything, but lol.

Acy should actually look really good in NYK this year. I'd like to see him get that ORB% up closer to 11% than 9%, and keep his shot-blocking rather closer to 4% than 2% and he could very easily become a long-term option at PF for them.

People compare Acy to guys like Reggie Evans or JYD all the time because of his motor or whatever, but from what I've read he's closer to Rodman: takes a very cerebral approach to what many mistake as simple products of energy, eg. boards and defence. That he researches opposing player's tendencies in order to exploit their weaknesses on the offensive end isn't something you hear about too often.

Unlike Rodman, Acy has a jumper.

[Waylon Mercy]

Just watch some Raptors videos from 1996. Darrell Walker had the Wizard, Popeye, Big-O and the boys running it to perfection.

Random fact, Popeye's son played for the U.S. Junior hockey team...

Where did you watch these videos?

[team edward]

Just watch some Raptors videos from 1996. Darrell Walker had the Wizard, Popeye, Big-O and the boys running it to perfection.

Random fact, Popeye's son played for the U.S. Junior hockey team...

Where did you watch these videos?

In the basement of my parents' house, 18 years ago....

[Waylon Mercy]

Just watch some Raptors videos from 1996. Darrell Walker had the Wizard, Popeye, Big-O and the boys running it to perfection.

Random fact, Popeye's son played for the U.S. Junior hockey team...

Where did you watch these videos?

In the basement of my parents' house, 18 years ago....

Yoooo hook them up or put them online lol