If we had Harden Instead of Demar, would we be Better?

[Basketball_Jones]

Best SG in the NBA on my team instead of DD? Gosh no! Give me the ' harder worker' and cheaper contract, etc

I wonder, if Derozan one day averages 25, 6, 5 on 62TS% with crap defence people on this board would trash him and say he's overrated and pine for someone else because that player "works hard." Pretty ridiculous.

[wow09]

Harden is so overrated. All these people sighting how great he is offensively are absolutely right. Unfortunately Basketball isn't like Football where you have designated offensive and defensive players. Having your best offensive player be absolutely atrocious on defense due to a lack of effort (which in my opinion is even worse then just being a pylon like Calderon) makes it extremely hard to build a winning culture. This guy is getting burned nightly by avg players and I am sure that isn't lost on his teammates. This is the same plague that Kessel has on the rest of the leafs roster. When your most talented player is lazy defensively it wears on the locker room.

I want my best player to be a relentless competitor on both ends of the floor. Even if he isn't the best defender Derozan is TRYING on defense. Harden is just content with sucking and not even exhibiting any effort at all. To me that shows a huge lack of competitiveness and extreme selfishness. What kind of teammate plays defense like that? His extreme lack of defense definitely nullifies a lot of how great he is offensively.

Yet the net drtg difference between Harden and Demar is identical - so if Harden is 'absolutely atrocious' can we say that while DeRozan may or may not 'try harder' he is absolutely atrocious as well? (for what its worth they both come out as net neutral)

Whats ridiculous is these rather arbitrary statements, completely void of empirical data, people make regarding Harden (although hardly limited to him), particularily it seems when comparing against Demar. VVV already dismantled this 'Harden is ball stopper' creation that seemed to magically occur out of mid-air...

To the 2nd bold, it absolutely does not.

I see your point regarding the defense but I don't think you can look purely at the numbers on this. I am sure that almost everybody on the Houston roster sees how little Harden tries on defense and that definitely wears on a locker room. It's the worst thing in the world when your best and most talented player isn't a hard worker. Harden should be setting the tone for everyone on the entire roster. Look at Lowry and how this team basically moulded around his pitbull mentality. Have you ever played ball with someone that doesn't even try on defense? You seriously want to stop the game and punch them in the face. Remember how much of a cancer bargs was to this team? People were crying for him to be gone because he exibited absolutely no effort on the glass or on defense. I am not saying he is even in the same stratosphere as Harden but still providing no effort on 50% of the game is troubling and creates tons of problems.

[joseph235]

Homers gonna homer.

[SirKen]

So what you are saying is that the difference between Harden and Demar's defense/leadership is big enough to make up for the enormous talent gap on their offensive end? Again, defensive metrics say they are almost identical on that end, everything else is immeasurable, and can be argued for both players depending on which strength you choose to highlight. Based on the current league standard, and the rising salary cap, Harden is being paid accordingly, it’s not like the money we are saving by paying Demar instead will land us a superstar in free agency. Besides, the question is “would this team be better with Demar or Harden”? Not this team minus whoever we cannot afford due to Harden’s salary

Defensive metrics is great and all but Harden is backed up by Dwight and DeRozan is backed up by JV. I wouldn't really call it identical.

Harden had better defensive numbers the year before, when Dwight wasn't on the team.

Oh Yeah! He had Asik, another top defensive center behind him.

[SirKen]

So what you are saying is that the difference between Harden and Demar's defense/leadership is big enough to make up for the enormous talent gap on their offensive end? Again, defensive metrics say they are almost identical on that end, everything else is immeasurable, and can be argued for both players depending on which strength you choose to highlight. Based on the current league standard, and the rising salary cap, Harden is being paid accordingly, it’s not like the money we are saving by paying Demar instead will land us a superstar in free agency. Besides, the question is “would this team be better with Demar or Harden”? Not this team minus whoever we cannot afford due to Harden’s salary

Defensive metrics is great and all but Harden is backed up by Dwight and DeRozan is backed up by JV. I wouldn't really call it identical.

Would you call one playing in the stacked Western Conference and the other playing in the pathetic Eastern Conference identical?

Goes both ways

Sure! I never claimed that Demar is a better player (definitely not better offensively). I do however believe that chemistry matters and I would consider Harden a negative in that area, after following most Rockets games for the last 2 years. Moreover, looking at the difference in contracts and the current team at hand, SG wouldn't be the first place for an upgrade.

But hey, this is an offense league and I think Harden knows that quite well as well.

[SirKen]

Would you call one playing in the stacked Western Conference and the other playing in the pathetic Eastern Conference identical?

Goes both ways

Doesn't have as big an impact as playing with Dwight compared to JV. They play with eachother every game, but every game isn't against an EC opponent.

James Harden without Dwight Howard (in a stacked West) led the Rockets to the playoffs 2 seasons ago. Even without Howard, I think Harden proved himself adequate. Now put him in the East.

Actually, from an analytical standpoint, it was the offence that benefitted most with Dwight Howard on board, the defense improved slightly.

Lin/DeRozan/Delfino/Parsons/Asik with Greg Smith, Montiejunas, Beverly off the bench. Would be interesting to see how many wins that team could get in the West

Harden wouldn't have achieved **** that year without Asik being the defensive anchor and without Lin and Parsons handling the additional playmaking responsibilities.

[Merit]

If post season wins is how you judge how impactful a player is then KG must of been one of the least impactful players of this era

8 playoff appearances and makes it out of the 1st round once with Minnesota

He has a 'chip.

I am talking about pre-Boston KG. He was 30 before he made it out of the 1st round more than once

Harden is 25 and already been to the NBA finals

Harden was 3rd fiddle on the team that made the finals. KG singlehandedly carried incredibly subpar teams to the post-season. KG also has a 'chip. Making the finals and winning the finals are two different stories entirely.

[HeartBreaking]

He has a 'chip.

I am talking about pre-Boston KG. He was 30 before he made it out of the 1st round more than once

Harden is 25 and already been to the NBA finals

Harden was 3rd fiddle on the team that made the finals. KG singlehandedly carried incredibly subpar teams to the post-season. KG also has a 'chip. Making the finals and winning the finals are two different stories entirely.

hardick gave the thunder that incremental boost to be final contenders. He ruined the spurs that year

[dTox]

Defensive metrics is great and all but Harden is backed up by Dwight and DeRozan is backed up by JV. I wouldn't really call it identical.

Harden had better defensive numbers the year before, when Dwight wasn't on the team.

Oh Yeah! He had Asik, another top defensive center behind him.

You do realize that the Val + Amir combo produced better defensive numbers than Howard + Terrance Jones combo right? What's the next excuse you got?

How about the fact that Harden was one of the leading players on the US team while Derozan was barely a bench warmer, was coach K really bad at assessing talent? The more I come to defend against these nonsense narratives the more I come out sounding like I hate Demar which absolutelly isn't the case because I love him on our team, just from a sensible perspective. If you want to defend Demar in this argument, bring facts, not excuses, and regurgitated narratives.

[Merit]

I am talking about pre-Boston KG. He was 30 before he made it out of the 1st round more than once

Harden is 25 and already been to the NBA finals

Harden was 3rd fiddle on the team that made the finals. KG singlehandedly carried incredibly subpar teams to the post-season. KG also has a 'chip. Making the finals and winning the finals are two different stories entirely.

hardick gave the thunder that incremental boost to be final contenders. He ruined the spurs that year

incremental boost = 3rd fiddle. key to his team making the playoffs in the first place = prime KG or prime KD.

[SirKen]

Harden had better defensive numbers the year before, when Dwight wasn't on the team.

Oh Yeah! He had Asik, another top defensive center behind him.

You do realize that the Val + Amir combo produced better defensive numbers than Howard + Terrance Jones combo right? What's the next excuse you got?

How about the fact that Harden was one of the leading players on the US team while Derozan was barely a bench warmer, was coach K really bad at assessing talent? The more I come to defend against these nonsense narratives the more I come out sounding like I hate Demar which absolutelly isn't the case because I love him on our team, just from a sensible perspective. If you want to defend Demar in this argument, bring facts, not excuses, and regurgitated narratives.

You keep talking about the difference in talent between the two. I don't think you get what people are trying to point out. I am done here.

[Rapcity_11]

Doesn't have as big an impact as playing with Dwight compared to JV. They play with eachother every game, but every game isn't against an EC opponent.

James Harden without Dwight Howard (in a stacked West) led the Rockets to the playoffs 2 seasons ago. Even without Howard, I think Harden proved himself adequate. Now put him in the East.

Actually, from an analytical standpoint, it was the offence that benefitted most with Dwight Howard on board, the defense improved slightly.

Lin/DeRozan/Delfino/Parsons/Asik with Greg Smith, Montiejunas, Beverly off the bench. Would be interesting to see how many wins that team could get in the West

Harden wouldn't have achieved **** that year without Asik being the defensive anchor and without Lin and Parsons handling the additional playmaking responsibilities.

Nobody achieves **** without other good players. That isn't a valid knock on Harden.

[Young_Buc]

I'll wait till we're 20 games in to form an opinion on the matter. DeRozan looks to have stepped up his game big time

He leads the nba in pre season scoring per minute (38 per 48 mins or 29 per 36) on a pretty nasty TS%.

I thought he'd score 18 per game last year on a sub 40 win team....

[Chriscross]

He has a 'chip.

I am talking about pre-Boston KG. He was 30 before he made it out of the 1st round more than once

Harden is 25 and already been to the NBA finals

Harden was 3rd fiddle on the team that made the finals. KG singlehandedly carried incredibly subpar teams to the post-season. KG also has a 'chip. Making the finals and winning the finals are two different stories entirely.

Once again, James Harden carried the Rockets to the post-season 2 seasons ago. Asik, Lin, Parsons and a non-existent bench was the Rockets supporting cast. KG had an equal or better supporting cast during his time in Minny

KG didn't accomplish anything until he played alongside 2 other Stars + another emerging star. Again, KG didn't win anything until he was 30. Before that, he made it out of the 1st round once in his career

[Danchan]

The answer is no. There is no doubt Harden is better, but he wouldnt fit in to the structure of the team as it now sits. Therefore the TEAM would not be as good. His defense is non existant and he doesnt play within the flow of the game. He also hasn't proven anything in the NBA. Would I swap the 2? Yes I would, but the team would also need an overhaul. Switching them out and comparing the teams, I think the team is worse, as the whole success of this team right now is the way they play as a team.

the success of this team u are talking about is losing to a lower seed in the first round. And the reason for the shortcoming is exactly because we lack a superstar caliber player on offense.

let's face it, when NJ was down by 5, what plays they run? Joe johnson post up, or Paul Pierce 3.

What do the raptors run?
Give ball to lowry and hope he gets fouled, or a derozan midrange. I'd rather give the ball to harden in both cases.

[dTox]

Oh Yeah! He had Asik, another top defensive center behind him.

You do realize that the Val + Amir combo produced better defensive numbers than Howard + Terrance Jones combo right? What's the next excuse you got?

How about the fact that Harden was one of the leading players on the US team while Derozan was barely a bench warmer, was coach K really bad at assessing talent? The more I come to defend against these nonsense narratives the more I come out sounding like I hate Demar which absolutelly isn't the case because I love him on our team, just from a sensible perspective. If you want to defend Demar in this argument, bring facts, not excuses, and regurgitated narratives.

You keep talking about the difference in talent between the two. I don't think you get what people are trying to point out. I am done here.

No they are talking about talent and fit, which in both cases Harden is better at, after pointing out endless amount of stats, it seems like you are the one who is lost? Peace

[EJaggit]

The way I see it, DeRozan's work ethic and friendly attitude got everyone to play great last season... Minus that and we wouldn't have scratched BKN, they'd probably take it in 6 maybe 5.

James Harden doesn't really have the work ethic or hard working, respectful attitude DeMar has, he brings in offense and that's probably about it, I don't see him showing true leadership like DeMar is capable of doing.. I just believe DD brings more to the table mentally and it makes up for what Harden could potentially bring to the team.

[Danchan]

More intangible quality over results. Everyone speaks like harden is a loser, but harden havnt even had a single losing season yet. Id take that over... well anything derozan fans throw at me.

lets rewrite history and claim that it was Derozan who made last season. Not lowry who single handedly willed us to victories and hit clutch shots while derozan struggle to score in close games.

[youngtea]

More intangible quality over results. Everyone speaks like harden is a loser, but harden havnt even had a single losing season yet. Id take that over... well anything derozan fans throw at me.

lets rewrite history and claim that it was Derozan who made last season. Not lowry who single handedly willed us to victories and hit clutch shots while derozan struggle to score in close games.

The situation has many intangibles. One of them is will Casey continue to be the coach of the Raptors if Harden was playing here. If so Harden would not produce as well in our offense. If we bring in an offensive coach and got rid of casey our mentality would not affect Derozan positively.

[Merit]

I am talking about pre-Boston KG. He was 30 before he made it out of the 1st round more than once

Harden is 25 and already been to the NBA finals

Harden was 3rd fiddle on the team that made the finals. KG singlehandedly carried incredibly subpar teams to the post-season. KG also has a 'chip. Making the finals and winning the finals are two different stories entirely.

Once again, James Harden carried the Rockets to the post-season 2 seasons ago. Asik, Lin, Parsons and a non-existent bench was the Rockets supporting cast. KG had an equal or better supporting cast during his time in Minny

KG didn't accomplish anything until he played alongside 2 other Stars + another emerging star. Again, KG didn't win anything until he was 30. Before that, he made it out of the 1st round once in his career

Two different eras, two different players. KG will be a first ballot hall of fame player and is in the argument for best all around PF in the game, ever. In his prime he averaged video game numbers. Yes, he won a championship at the tail end of his career but he spent the majority of his time with crappy players due to minny's inept front office. They were penalized for the Joe Smith fiasco and made a bunch of stupid trades and signings. Not his fault. He was also far too loyal when others chose to move around to the situation that was best in the short term. I can't be bothered to look up the numbers but I know that KG played on some of the worst teams I can remember and still made them relevant.

James harden is talented but he doesn't play defense. KG is still one of the better defensive players in the game, in spite of wonky knees, age and changing positions. Who cares if James Harden scored a lot of points on a team that was built around him and had no other scorers? Let me put it this way: if you switch James Harden with a prime KG on the current Houston Rockets (or last year's as well) they are championship contenders. They would definitely get out of the first round anyway.