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OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-time ?

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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#121 » by m83588333 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:44 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

Everybody on that list are team first guys except Kobe and maybe Wilt.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#122 » by RaptorsFan100 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:45 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

Lebron wont win enough finals to be top 5. And he lost in the finals 3 time so far, thats a HUGE knock agaisnt him.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#123 » by VinBaker6 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:53 pm

RaptorsFan100 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

Lebron wont win enough finals to be top 5. And he lost in the finals 3 time so far, thats a HUGE knock agaisnt him.


Magic and Bird lost a bunch of times in the Finals as well. Losing to Timmy twice ain't shameful. Losing to Dallas was.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#124 » by B_BallReasons » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:41 pm

I'm not sure about 15 but it's possible. IMO a lot of his accomplishments are being undone these last few years of his career. Biggest factors in this? Duncan and Dirk. These are two players from the same era of Kobe. All three are GOATs in their respective positions. They are all on their way out but Kobe is the only one left in the gutter. Dirk and Duncan have expressed their desire to win by taking smaller contracts to allow their teams to stay competitive. Both are now legit championship contenders for the remainder of their careers. Kobe on the other hand has gone to the media and spiel how he wants to win. He goes and signs a toxic contract that puts the team in extreme distress to do any moves in the offseason. No one benefits from that but Kobe. In addition there are several reports that no one wants to play with Kobe. Other reports coming out that Kobe doesn't practice with the team. When he does show up to practice he is really harsh on his teammates. On top of that, he must be having the worst shooting percentages in the history of the NBA. Him breaking the record for most field goal misses doesn't help. Him getting a ceremony after surpassing Jordan for points scored doesn't help his cause either. When his career is over I think he would be in the 10-15 range but I think he will eventually fall out of the top 20 as time progresses when other stars begin to retire.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#125 » by Illuminati_ » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:44 pm

Pretty fair list. Bout time somebody recognizes magic as the GOAT. Im sure everyone will only speak of mj but magic/larry/kareem and russel always get the short stick
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#126 » by RaptorsFan100 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:48 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:
RaptorsFan100 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

Lebron wont win enough finals to be top 5. And he lost in the finals 3 time so far, thats a HUGE knock agaisnt him.


Magic and Bird lost a bunch of times in the Finals as well. Losing to Timmy twice ain't shameful. Losing to Dallas was.

But getting swept by timmy and losing to timmy by a record margin beatdown is shameful. At least be competitive...

Brid won 3 loss 2
Magic won 5 loss 4
James won 2 loss 3

3-2 is better than 2-3
5-4 is better than 2-3
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#127 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:44 pm

VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.


I'm in my 4th decade of watching NBA ball and my older brothers are in their 5th, and imo, LBJ is already deserving of a top 10 nod.

Outside of that, your top 10 list are the same players just in a little different order, for example Hakeem should be above both Duncan and Shaq. I find players are penalized far too much in these types of list for having inferior teammates.

Admiral, Barkley, Moses Malone, Kobe, Isiah, Big O, Garnett, Payton, Pippen, Drexler are all in that next pool of players for me and it pretty muddy attempting to rank 11 through 20.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#128 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:49 pm

m83588333 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

Everybody on that list are team first guys except Kobe and maybe Wilt.


Man posters in here need to go and learn about NBA history.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#129 » by m83588333 » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:20 pm

Local_NG_Idiot wrote:
m83588333 wrote:
VinBaker6 wrote:Kobe is ridiculously underrated on RealGM. It's insulting to see, and that's coming from someone whose always hated Kobe (till now).

I personally have (no order)

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

LeBron rapidly approaching, will probably end up in the top 5.

Everybody on that list are team first guys except Kobe and maybe Wilt.


Man posters in here need to go and learn about NBA history.
guys on the list made players around them better too. Kobe has never been the guy to make his teammates better


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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#130 » by mademan » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:25 pm

And1+2 wrote:On an individual skill basis, Kobe is the second best pure offensive scorer of all time. Footwork, shooting form, ability to create space, post game, ability to read and distinguish lanes. Only one player did this better, and it is not LeBron James.

He definitely belongs on everyone's top 10 list at the very least. Not putting him in there is blasphamey to the game of basketball.


Kobe wasn't a better scorer than current Durant, much less 2nd best of all time. Dude is criminally overrated and the only thing he has going for him is that his organization consistently placed remarkable talent/coaching around him.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#131 » by phoenixnorth » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:25 pm

raptor jesus wrote:
C_Money wrote:Kobe is better than a lot of those guys listed including Tim Duncan.


I'd place Duncan 6-8, and Kobe fringe top 10, 11-13. Duncan has as many championships, and won them with less; the '99 and '03 championship teams weren't all that great IMO, but Duncan dragged them to the finish line. Duncan has never won fewer than 50 games - excluding the '99 lockout when they only played 50 games (the Spurs went 37-13). We as Raptor fans know how difficult it is to win 50 because we never have. Duncan does it every single year. His sustained excellence, in this era, sets him apart.


100% agree. To put the Spurs excellence into even more perspective, consider the fact they won 50 games even in a lockout year playing 66 games and the Raptors have not hit 50 EVER.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#132 » by LLJ » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:37 pm

I liked Kobe and he's for sure the best SG of our generation but he's probably only top 20 all time for me. I think he's somewhere alongside Dirk. I think consistency of excellence is my problem with him. He's been on some average to bad teams, more than a top 10 player should. Dirk only has 1 ring but he hardly ever missed the playoffs, same with Duncan. I realize there are a lot of other factors at work here, but it stands to reason that to be considered a truly great player, you have to be able to consistently lift your team year after year beyond its expected talent level. MJ's worst teams were probably his rookie year and his Wizards years, but he hardly missed a beat in between. Kareem, Magic and Bird had hardly ever missed the playoffs.

In my ranking, regular season results matter to a person's resume as well. It's a matter of maintaining a certain base standard of excellence.

I'm not sure whether to put him above or below Hakeem though. In Hakeem's favour, he carried one of the weakest teams ever to a title--1994--and he had numerous memorable playoff performances. But Hakeem had some mediocre years in Houston as well, and was even a bit of a knucklehead sometimes. He had a great peak but his consistency over a 10 year span isn't as impressive as some other greats.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#133 » by Scase » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:38 pm

Guy Smiley wrote:
Scase wrote:Anyone who has Lebron on their top 15 list is too young to be commenting on a top 15 list.


Take Kobe's 5 best years ever and compare it to Lebron's career averages. See how overrated Kobe's peak has been in comparison to Lebron.

As for winning. Please review Kobe's regular season and more importantly playoff record without Phil Jackson.

Kobe can thank Phil Jackson for his legacy. Although a similar argument could be made against Michael Jordan.

So then MJ and Kobe are simply good players but elevated to GOAT and HoF status due to a coach? No.

Should I be impressed by LBJ bringing a crappy Cavs team to the Finals and getting stomped?

I'm not suggesting that LBJ is not worthy of being spoke of in the same tone as the rest of those players but, as of now he is not. Stats get you into the HoF, which he's already a lock for. What all the players that (most) people have put in their list "have" transcend simple stats.

Most everyone of those players were the absolute dominant player in the NBA for a long period of time, the same cannot be said of LBJ or Kobe really which is why I'm hesitant of putting either of them in the top 15.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#134 » by CptLouHefner » Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:35 pm

Korr wrote:
The fact that he's a **** team mate and generally a terrible human being doesn't mean he's a lesser player on the court.


You didn't say that?
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#135 » by orbesnet » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:00 pm

Reggie is just salty, Kobe's gotta be top ten just based on shear accomplishments and 'ships.

Now if Reggie's is questioning if Kobe would have been as succesfull in Jordan/Miller's era, well that's another question.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#136 » by DemarEvolution » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:18 pm

raptor jesus wrote:
C_Money wrote:Kobe is better than a lot of those guys listed including Tim Duncan.


I'd place Duncan 6-8, and Kobe fringe top 10, 11-13. Duncan has as many championships, and won them with less; the '99 and '03 championship teams weren't all that great IMO, but Duncan dragged them to the finish line. Duncan has never won fewer than 50 games - excluding the '99 lockout when they only played 50 games (the Spurs went 37-13). We as Raptor fans know how difficult it is to win 50 because we never have. Duncan does it every single year. His sustained excellence, in this era, sets him apart.


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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#137 » by GSK » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:04 am

CountOnAlex wrote:Image


That is a bit of a weak point. If you compare Paul Gasol's resume to the resume of the 50 Greatest Players that the NBA released back in 1996 during MJ's time then I would easily take Gasol over Lenny Wilkens and Paul Arzin. Now would Gasol be in the top 50 today, possibly if you take into consideration his international career.

One thing for sure though is that I can also make a point stating that MJ never won a ring with a top 10 player like Kobe did for the majority of his titles. The distance between Shaq and Pippen is significantly larger (they're not even on the same level) than the distance between Pippen and Gasol.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#138 » by Korr » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:09 am

CptLouHefner wrote:
Korr wrote:
The fact that he's a **** team mate and generally a terrible human being doesn't mean he's a lesser player on the court.


You didn't say that?

Mhm. I didn't say he was a better player than Tim Duncan. I also wasn't replying to your post that I hadn't even read.

I was making a general statement that you took as replying to your post lol. Let it go bro.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#139 » by Rhyno » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:25 am

Bryant > Duncan.

1. Head to head matchups in the playoffs, Bryant has a series advantage over Duncan
1999 - SA 4-0
2001 - Lakers 4-0
2002 - Lakers 4-1
2003 - SA 4-2
2004 - Lakers 4-2
2008 - Lakers 4-1
2013 - SA 4-0

Also, notice the gaps and years where SA won these head to heads? 1999, the Lakers didn't win a championship yet. 2003, Spurs were better that series. 2013, Spurs beat a washed up Lakers team that was finished (minus Bryant).

2. Bryant is still putting up the same offensive numbers as he was in his prime. Both entered the league roughly the same time--Duncan has been an above average role player at best for the past 5 years playing on a stacked team. Bryant has been surrounding with a lot of garbage the past 15 years.

3. Bryant has a 3-Peat and back to back on his resume. Duncan and the Spurs never defended a championship back to back.

4. Kobe is dominant and a threat during every stage of a basketball game. Hack-a-Shaq applied to Hack-a-Tim.

Bottom line, both are good players but Bryant is the better individual player hands down. Duncan has been surrounded by the Spurs system his entire career, Bryant has never had that luxury.
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Re: OT: Kobe Bryant no better than a top 15 player of all-ti 

Post#140 » by PenguinBoxer » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:38 am

the fact that you place duncan a PF over Kobe a guard is INSANE... you need a guard for Duncan to even effect the game. Kobe's or a guard impact on a game is so much greater, and their skill level so much higher, anyone who actually played basketball knows this.

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