We DESPERATELY need Jonas to develop into a star

[vini_vidi_vici]

Just give Jonas the Vucevic role and he won't do much worse than him.

Nothing like aspiring to emulate the 24th best ORTG in the L.

Vuc avgs 33.6% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 45.3 FG%.
JV avgs 14% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 30.6 FG%.

Vuc ASTr is 9.9
JV ASTr is 3.6

Vuc DFG% differential is -0.7
JV DFG% differential is +3.7

Terrible comp.

I don't think most people here understand the value of defense or assists so your stats may not have the effect you think they will. At the end of the day JV seems to get a pass no matter what because he is 22 and because Gasol and Hibbert were slow developers so JV will develop just like they did. For some reason every advanced stat which shows JV needs a lot of improvement is incorrect or flawed.

All they see is TS% and PER.

There is too much blind hope. I looked at JV's assist and dfg% and compared them to other young centers and his are really bad in comparison.

I agree, its all PER/TS%. I said this same thing in another thread a few weeks ago, re: UD being annoyed with posters/me ranting about no one talking about the D only TS%/PER.

I will say, while JVs are terribly low (and worthy of criticism), ASTs have little correlation with being good ORTGs. Its funny though, we oft read about lack of ASTs in relation to JV not getting the ball, but they conveniently leave out hes the biggest issue in that regard (lack of ASTr).

The team does better both ORTG (+6.6) defensively (-7.3) and NetRTG (+14.2) with him off the floor.

Remember we need him for REB narrative? With JV on the court the team REB% is 49.5, with him off its 50.5 team REB%.

Ive spammed the crap out of his individual #s over the past few days.

Im not sure what JV will develop into, but I dont mind the free pass coaches are giving him (re: USG/starters mins/etc..) because of his age/potential/etc.. Its the fans that annoy me to be honest, they act like hes entitled to more despite all this, esp in the 4th when we are trying to win.

[Crazomali]

Just give Jonas the Vucevic role and he won't do much worse than him.

Nothing like aspiring to emulate the 24th best ORTG in the L.

Vuc avgs 33.6% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 45.3 FG%.
JV avgs 14% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 30.6 FG%.

Vuc ASTr is 9.9
JV ASTr is 3.6

Vuc DFG% differential is -0.7
JV DFG% differential is +3.7

Terrible comp.

I don't think most people here understand the value of defense or assists so your stats may not have the effect you think they will. At the end of the day JV seems to get a pass no matter what because he is 22 and because Gasol and Hibbert were slow developers so JV will develop just like they did. For some reason every advanced stat which shows JV needs a lot of improvement is incorrect or flawed.

All they see is TS% and PER.

There is too much blind hope. I looked at JV's assist and dfg% and compared them to other young centers and his are really bad in comparison.

Jonas 3.6 astr , +3.7 DFG
Drummond 3.7 astr, +1.7 DFG
Alex len 6.4 astr, 0.0 DFG
Jusuf Nurkic 8.9 astr, -1.4 DFG
Steven Adams 9.9 astr, -3.2 DFG
Gorgui Deng 17.5 astR, 5.1 DFG
Nerlens Noel 12.2 astr, 1.6 DFG
Rudy Gorbet 14.7 astr, -7.6 DFG

to be fair to JV, he is in a Defensive system that is hurting his DFG% .

And you cannot discount TS% and PER. terrible argument since you are taking away his best strengths to make him look really bad.

[Jstock12]

I will say, while JVs are terribly low (and worthy of criticism), ASTs have little correlation with being good ORTGs. Its funny though, we oft read about lack of ASTs in relation to JV not getting the ball, but they conveniently leave out hes the biggest issue in that regard (lack of ASTr).

That is fair. This is JV's weakness (all players have those). JV was never a passer, since it wasn't really what he was looked to do. It's on JV (and coaching staff to help him) to improve his passing.

2007 U-16 0.0apg
2008 U-16 0.1apg
2009 U-18 0.3apg
2010 U-18 0.9apg
2011 U-19 1.0apg
2012 Olympics Qualifier 0.5apg
2012 Olympics 0.0apg
2013 Eurobasket 0.1apg
2014 FIBA WC 0.6apg

[vini_vidi_vici]

Nothing like aspiring to emulate the 24th best ORTG in the L.

Vuc avgs 33.6% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 45.3 FG%.
JV avgs 14% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 30.6 FG%.

Vuc ASTr is 9.9
JV ASTr is 3.6

Vuc DFG% differential is -0.7
JV DFG% differential is +3.7

Terrible comp.

I don't think most people here understand the value of defense or assists so your stats may not have the effect you think they will. At the end of the day JV seems to get a pass no matter what because he is 22 and because Gasol and Hibbert were slow developers so JV will develop just like they did. For some reason every advanced stat which shows JV needs a lot of improvement is incorrect or flawed.

All they see is TS% and PER.

There is too much blind hope. I looked at JV's assist and dfg% and compared them to other young centers and his are really bad in comparison.

Jonas 3.6 astr , +3.7 DFG
Drummond 3.7 astr, +1.7 DFG
Alex len 6.4 astr, 0.0 DFG
Jusuf Nurkic 8.9 astr, -1.4 DFG
Steven Adams 9.9 astr, -3.2 DFG
Gorgui Deng 17.5 astR, 5.1 DFG
Nerlens Noel 12.2 astr, 1.6 DFG
Rudy Gorbet 14.7 astr, -7.6 DFG

to be fair to JV, he is in a Defensive system that is hurting his DFG% .

And you cannot discount TS% and PER. terrible argument since you are taking away his best strengths to make him look really bad.

iDRTG of Cs/C-Fs playing >= 15 MPG (36 players), hes T7th worst.

Among 76 Cs as per ESPN, JV is 68th in DRPM.

Again the on/off splits are above.

Why is it the defensive system?? Seems pretty great when hes off the floor (100.3 DRTG, 8th in the NBA).

PER is a terrible stat (so are most all encompassing/volume stats), esp with all the others we now have. His TS% is high because he shoots 90% of his shots within 10 ft, its not rocket science, Mason Plumlee is doing the same thing. Is he a great offensive threat??

[Crazomali]

I don't think most people here understand the value of defense or assists so your stats may not have the effect you think they will. At the end of the day JV seems to get a pass no matter what because he is 22 and because Gasol and Hibbert were slow developers so JV will develop just like they did. For some reason every advanced stat which shows JV needs a lot of improvement is incorrect or flawed.

All they see is TS% and PER.

There is too much blind hope. I looked at JV's assist and dfg% and compared them to other young centers and his are really bad in comparison.

Jonas 3.6 astr , +3.7 DFG
Drummond 3.7 astr, +1.7 DFG
Alex len 6.4 astr, 0.0 DFG
Jusuf Nurkic 8.9 astr, -1.4 DFG
Steven Adams 9.9 astr, -3.2 DFG
Gorgui Deng 17.5 astR, 5.1 DFG
Nerlens Noel 12.2 astr, 1.6 DFG
Rudy Gorbet 14.7 astr, -7.6 DFG

to be fair to JV, he is in a Defensive system that is hurting his DFG% .

And you cannot discount TS% and PER. terrible argument since you are taking away his best strengths to make him look really bad.

iDRTG of Cs/C-Fs playing >= 15 MPG (36 players), hes T7th worst.

Among 76 Cs as per ESPN, JV is 68th in DRPM.

Again the on/off splits are above.

Why is it the defensive system?? Seems pretty great when hes off the floor (100.3 DRTG, 8th in the NBA).

PER is a terrible stat (so are most all encompassing/volume stats), esp with all the others we now have. His TS% is high because he shoots 90% of his shots within 10 ft, its not rocket science, Mason Plumlee is doing the same thing. Is he a great offensive threat??

Thats some pretty damning stuff.

VVV, your a good poster but I still believe JV will turn into a defensive beast under JVG or an offensive powerhouse with Nurse I dont think he can blossom into a great C where his own coach says "Development time is over" for an 22 year old.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Jonas 3.6 astr , +3.7 DFG
Drummond 3.7 astr, +1.7 DFG
Alex len 6.4 astr, 0.0 DFG
Jusuf Nurkic 8.9 astr, -1.4 DFG
Steven Adams 9.9 astr, -3.2 DFG
Gorgui Deng 17.5 astR, 5.1 DFG
Nerlens Noel 12.2 astr, 1.6 DFG
Rudy Gorbet 14.7 astr, -7.6 DFG

to be fair to JV, he is in a Defensive system that is hurting his DFG% .

And you cannot discount TS% and PER. terrible argument since you are taking away his best strengths to make him look really bad.

iDRTG of Cs/C-Fs playing >= 15 MPG (36 players), hes T7th worst.

Among 76 Cs as per ESPN, JV is 68th in DRPM.

Again the on/off splits are above.

Why is it the defensive system?? Seems pretty great when hes off the floor (100.3 DRTG, 8th in the NBA).

PER is a terrible stat (so are most all encompassing/volume stats), esp with all the others we now have. His TS% is high because he shoots 90% of his shots within 10 ft, its not rocket science, Mason Plumlee is doing the same thing. Is he a great offensive threat??

Thats some pretty damning stuff.

VVV, your a good poster but I still believe JV will turn into a defensive beast under JVG or an offensive powerhouse with Nurse I dont think he can blossom into a great C where his own coach says "Development time is over" for an 22 year old.

Despite ******** all over JV, I do too. I could praise JV for numerous things, most of you fans never mention he was able to change from a predominant PnR threat, to more of a face up/post up game (I assume because AJ is so much more effective in the PnR, even still DC runs alot of Horns). He was fairly good to average last year defensively. Hes improved the rim protection.

It is over for development in terms of the team. And its probably why he doesnt play much in 4ths, altho DC usually subs him in around the 6 min mark of the 4th (when hes playing well) and there have been numerous blow outs this season (last I saw, we were tied with GSW for 1st, I think like 5-10 games ago, IIRC it was 15 or thereabouts).

I just think its lunacy to be excusing this, if were going to have a thread called "when are we going to stop making excuses for DD" (and probably deservedly so). JV has been hurting this team in alot of ways, and the Raps coaching staff is doing all they can to develop him. Mobility? they got him a running coach this offseason. Defense? Clearly it was emphasized by their expectations coming into the season of developing him to be the top defensive C. I think it will come, but its the extremes on both sides of this discussion that annoys me, along with the volume of posts specifically about him (and to be fair, I hate all the DC garbage too, which are usually mutually exclusive). JV isnt trash, JV wouldnt be Duncan with a diff coach, DC is doing fine with him IMO.

[Hero]

Nothing like aspiring to emulate the 24th best ORTG in the L.

Vuc avgs 33.6% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 45.3 FG%.
JV avgs 14% of his FGAs from Midrange, where he shoots 30.6 FG%.

Vuc ASTr is 9.9
JV ASTr is 3.6

Vuc DFG% differential is -0.7
JV DFG% differential is +3.7

Terrible comp.

I don't think most people here understand the value of defense or assists so your stats may not have the effect you think they will. At the end of the day JV seems to get a pass no matter what because he is 22 and because Gasol and Hibbert were slow developers so JV will develop just like they did. For some reason every advanced stat which shows JV needs a lot of improvement is incorrect or flawed.

All they see is TS% and PER.

There is too much blind hope. I looked at JV's assist and dfg% and compared them to other young centers and his are really bad in comparison.

And you cannot discount TS% and PER. terrible argument since you are taking away his best strengths to make him look really bad.

Not sure what you are replying to. I said that can't only consider TS% and PER. If you think that's all that matters then good luck with that. I prefer to consider defense and assist numbers as well when considering how good a young center is.

If PER and TS are so great then Brandon Wright is the next Shaq.

If all you're considering are PER and TS then you're incredibly biased towards JV. The proper way to consider those stats are to consider minutes played and defense numbers as well.

Somehow me doing so makes me wanting to make JV look bad.

[Reg00]

So now we're not using PER? Oh wait, only If we're attacking Demar right?

And I find it interesting that the main stats that Val has visible issues with, assists and +/-, are either extremely dubious(plus minus) or not traditional centre stats. Val was also part of some very highly ranked 5 man teams, are we talking about that ever?

Also, when a player has a high ts% and good per with his high usage, as opposed to Wright who has lower usage rate, then it's a good thing.

Just compare the BLK % an rebounding percentages of Val and Noah. They seem pretty close yet one I seen as a defensive sieve and the
Other a defensive player of the year.

[cbjrdm]

We can't pressure him into becoming a star, it has to come from JV. This is an issue of motivation, and the franchise providing him with the fire and tools to take it to the next level. The major difference between stars and average players with talent is motivation. If a player is motivated, he will find a way to break through the ceiling. If not, he will just continue to be average. So our need is out of the equation, this has all got to do with JV's mindset.

[vini_vidi_vici]

So now we're not using PER? Oh wait, only If we're attacking Demar right?

And I find it interesting that the main stats that Val has visible issues with, assists and +/-, are either extremely dubious(plus minus) or not traditional centre stats. Val was also part of some very highly ranked 5 man teams, are we talking about that ever?

Just compare the BLK % an rebounding percentages of Val and Noah. They seem pretty close yet one I seen as a defensive sieve and the other a defensive player of the year.

I never use PER.

What about defensive #s? Go back and read this thread, I post alot more than just "assists and +/-". None of which were flattering.

BLK% is prob the lowest corollary to DRTG. First its not even assured you get the Stop on them (ex: out of bounds/etc..).

And yea his REB% is good, yet the team gets out rebounded with JV on the floor, and dont when hes off the floor.

Meanwhile with Noah off the court the team DRTG goes up (unlike JV), and its his worst iDRTG since his 2nd year (and still better than JVs). And yet his DFG% differential is still -4.1. Hes regressed in rim protection, but if youre comparing an off year/injured Noah (whos missed consecutive games 3 times, twice 4 games consecutively) to JV, thats an indictment not a accolade. Compare him to last years #s if you want to use the DPOY narrative.

Edit: Since I missed it.

Also, when a player has a high ts% and good per with his high usage, as opposed to Wright who has lower usage rate, then it's a good thing.

You mean like Mason Plumlee?? Another guy who gets 90%+ of his FGAs inside 10 ft? 58.1 TS%. 21.0 USG%. 17.1 REB%. How great is he??

[omar36]

He won't ever be a Star, his defense is terrible.
I agree Casey's using him horribly but Jonas is literally a snail on defense, he rotates like he's in slow motion

Bosh was a star while being a pylon on defence.

bosh was also a pretty good athlete who showed potential but had no heart when he played here. jonas is slow AF

[omar36]

double post sorry

[omar36]

His defense will never be anything more then passable. He has no mobility, and you font develop that with age

what makes you the expert to say this.lol.

Hi. Im a basketball genius and I go on to forums to post my brilliant thoughts. lol gtfo

when did i say im an expert? thats my opinion which what you post on forums... your opinion

sorry for not putting in "imo"

[VanDamme]

The only real star on this team is Kyle Lowry. DeMar is a good player when he's being aggressive, attacking the rim and drawing fouls, but he has no fail-safe, because he's an inconsistent jumpshooter. That to me makes him a fake or pseudo-star.

We need Jonas to become that second star on this team. The potential is definitely there, but he's going to need more touches and a larger role to get there. Look at a guy like Klay Thompson who was effectively a role player last year. More opportunity this year has allowed him to blossom into a legitimate star player. That's what we need to happen with Jonas or this team is going nowhere fast.

Agree that Lowry is the only consensus star on this team.

Why do we need Jonas to become our second star?
Why are we going nowhere fast if Jonas doesn't have a Klay Thompson-esque jump in performance?

Did more opportunity this year allow Klay to "blossom into a legitimate star player" as you suggest, or has his performance been the reason he has gotten more opportunity?

Just curious what all your assumptions are based on.

[UnderdogRaptors]

Jonas is too good for this team, I wouldn't be surprised if he left. A 5th overall pick being treated like Eddy curry

[omar36]

i dotn hate jv, i think hes pretty good but is under utilized. he wont ever be a 2 way player imo but could be real special on the offensive end.

[Reg00]

So now we're not using PER? Oh wait, only If we're attacking Demar right?

And I find it interesting that the main stats that Val has visible issues with, assists and +/-, are either extremely dubious(plus minus) or not traditional centre stats. Val was also part of some very highly ranked 5 man teams, are we talking about that ever?

Just compare the BLK % an rebounding percentages of Val and Noah. They seem pretty close yet one I seen as a defensive sieve and the other a defensive player of the year.

I never use PER.

What about defensive #s? Go back and read this thread, I post alot more than just "assists and +/-". None of which were flattering.

BLK% is prob the lowest corollary to DRTG. First its not even assured you get the Stop on them (ex: out of bounds/etc..).

And yea his REB% is good, yet the team gets out rebounded with JV on the floor, and dont when hes off the floor.

Meanwhile with Noah off the court the team DRTG goes up (unlike JV), and its his worst iDRTG since his 2nd year (and still better than JVs). And yet his DFG% differential is still -4.1. Hes regressed in rim protection, but if youre comparing an off year/injured Noah (whos missed consecutive games 3 times, twice 4 games consecutively) to JV, thats an indictment not a accolade. Compare him to last years #s if you want to use the DPOY narrative.

Edit: Since I missed it.

Also, when a player has a high ts% and good per with his high usage, as opposed to Wright who has lower usage rate, then it's a good thing.

You mean like Mason Plumlee?? Another guy who gets 90%+ of his FGAs inside 10 ft? 58.1 TS%. 21.0 USG%. 17.1 REB%. How great is he??

Mason is pretty good, another young centre getting a chance with the nets.

I don't know triple v, we always come back to point differential with criticism of Jonas. We talk about rim protection but we avoid blk%, we talk about his rebounding weaknesses but we ignore rebound%. We always come back to a +/- discussion and I an not a fan of this stat in basketball. Talk about an all-encompassing stat that needs pages of context, these ones are certainly that.

For instance, if he rebounds at a high clip and yet his team gets outré bounded with him on the floor, as you pointed out, what's the reasoning? Is he stealing rebounds for personal gain? Is his team relaxing on the boards thinking he will get them all? All +/- discussions fall flat to me for basically these concerns. It's a stat that just gets me to ask more questions rather than answering anything.

[J_Sky_G]

We werent talking about potential, youre shifting the goal posts, you said "Give him the Vucevic role and he would be no worse". Infact he would be.

Want more?

JV 90% of his FGAs happen within 10 ft.
Vuc 64.9% of his FGAs happen within 10 ft.

JV 4.6% of his FGAs are Catch and Shoot.
Vuc 27.4% of his FGAs are Catch and Shoot.

JV 15.2% of his FGAs are open by 4+ ft.
Vuc 36.3 of his FGAs are open by 4+ ft.

JV is actually good. 49.5 FG% against.
Vuc is a bad rim protector. 54.0 FG% against.

Other than being tall, european, and REB at roughly the same rate, there isnt much comparison.

Among 255 NBA players who have played >= 20 MPG, JV is 253rd in PTs created by ASTs per 48 mins (incls FT/hockey assists), 255th in AST Opportunities. Blame cutters/selfish teammates/etc.. this guy doesnt give up the ball no matter the narrative, even if surrounded with shooters in TR/KL/PP/etc..

that stat is almost useless IMO because Jonas barely touched the ball when he is on the floor. You're acting like there is active movement within the offebse and Jonas is just chucking up 10 shots a game.

Jonas barely plays, barely gets touches, and when he does get the ball, he should pass ibup half the time to players who show no willingness to move without the basketball? What kind of nonsense is that?!

Hes at an alltime high USG%, youre aware of this correct?? 3rd highest of the starters, 5th highest of active players (not incl Bruno/Bebe).

To further refute your point about cutters last year.

JV had 14 ASTs to KL, 12 to DD, a whopping 26 to them all last season. Only 5 (edit: of KLs baskets) of those ASTs came within 5ft of the basket. He scored 6 off 3s. It looks like most of his ASTs came from kicking it out to shooters, not cutters.

So he wont pass it because he wont get it back, and yet they should pass it because they wont get it back? Seems reasonable this is strictly an advocacy in favor of JV.

How can you not see the fallacy in your own argument?

1) First of all, let's dissect your point about Val's assists. How is it odd that most (read only one more) of his assists can from spot up shooters? That's not odd because that's all the team does when he gets the ball - stand around and wait for the pass.

2) that "all time high" USG rate is pure hyperbole. Most of this teams usage is gonna come from the guards, who have the ball in their hands most of the time. As a matter of fact, don't you think it's odd that bench players like Vasquez and Williams have higher USG rates than Val? So yes he has a high usage FOR HIM, but with respect to the rest of the team? Not at all tbh.

Show me an offense where, when JV gets the ball, there are cuts being made consistently and players are flashing to the ball. Show me that offense, and if he still isn't passing then you have an argument

[J_Sky_G]

How can you look at a team with 4 players around 25%+ USG and tell me JVs is at an ALL TIME HIGH

[JV4MVP]

20/11 in third quarter... play for two minutes in the 4th