How bad has Patrict Patterson been...

[dhackett1565]

Patterson has shot 35% from 3 when Lowry is on the court versus 29% without him. His on-court net rating with Lowry is +25, without him -13.

Patterson has shot 46% from 3 when DeRozan is on the court versus 20% without him. His on-court net rating with DeRozan is +8, without him +5.

Play Patterson with the starters. All will be well.

Did you get these from Nbawowwy?

NBA.com's stats page has a "compare player" tool that works very well for single player wowy's. If you want more complex wowy's you have to go to NBAwowy.

[martypython]

They tried him with the starters in preseason he was awful there too

If you think pre-season means anything at all, then you and I disagree on how much pre-season means. Madness to make lineup changes based on pre-season results.

He's basically been the same player on both units so I think there's more to it than just what unit he's on. An open shot is an open shot and he hasn't been hitting them on either. If Casey were smart he'd bench him and Ross and let them earn their way back (they need the coach to send them a message).

Patty P will get benched if he starts pulling a McGee or gambling on defense. Missing open shots isn't bad shot selection, it's bad luck. It usually correct itself over time.

[WorldChamp]

The only time Bennett played when he was healthy he was good. He was recovering from shoulder surgery in his first season and really should have been sat out until he was ready and in Minnesota he played very well until he got injured again.

hmm "good" is very subjective. I don't really see where he was more than an end of then bench guy looking at his game log

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bennean01/gamelog/2015/

Doesn't look very "good" to me.

If you start to look at Bennett a little more objectively you'll start to see him as an end of the bench big with upside but he really hasn't done anything in his career to warrant giving him minutes. RaptorsFTL brought up a few facts where he compared Patterson and Bennett objectively, specifically noting that Bennett is a negative WS player for his career and has an embarrassing career TS%. It's not hard to see that playing Bennett is not going to have an impact that leads to wins. I really want him to be good and develop but he's stuck behind Scola, Patterson and JJ in the rotation. Ideally he belongs in the D-League.

up until about November 30th he was playing well especially considering he was on a new team. Look at each game where he got 20+ MP

Nov 1 VS Chicago 20Mp Fg 6/7 12pts 5trb 2stl 1Ast 1 Blk
Nov 15 vs Dallas 28 mp Fg 4/8 10pts 7trb 4ast
Nov 21 Vs Spurs 32 mp Fg 9/14 20 pts 3 trb 3stl 1 ast
Nov 22 VS Kings 29 mp fg 5/11 10 pts 6trb 2blk 2ast 1stl
Nov 26 Vs Bucks 21 mp fg 6/11 12pts 4trb 1stl 2blk
Nov 28 vs LAL 28 mp fg 5/8 11pts 3trb 1 ast

He also went 14 pts (6-11 Fg) 10 trb on the spurs on Dec 6 and then got his minutes reduced. Even Demarcus Cousins was giving AB praise early last year,

Patterson is playing like garbage there's no way Ab should be getting benched each game. I'm not saying he's going to be great right away but I'm betting he'll be outplaying Patterson within 15 games of consistent minutes (that's not hard considering Patterson is the least efficient PF in the league averaging more than 20Mpg).

[andyhop]

Bennett during that good run was shooting something like 55% from 10 feet to the 3 pt line unsurprisingly it turned out that he wasn't the greatest mid range shooter in history and the numbers returned to earth

[Johnny Bball]

It certainly is. I was speaking to the everyday starting lineup that will be returned to once JV is back. Obviously we'll need to feel out what to do with Biyombo.

Most of my points are about how the season has unfolded thus far. These are problems that existed way before JV went down, and should have been fixed way before JV went down.

way before 13 games into the season?

Yes. It was clear from a fit perspective when he signed, was obvious in preseason, was backed up by stats one game into the regular season and hasn't stopped being backed up by the stats after any game since.

It was clear? We started 5-0. I'm certain thats not when we start him. Then Carrol got hurt. We played 4 games at home and then went on a west coast road trip. 11 on the road. We were supposed to play him sooner that what on the road playing over .500? Then Scola then starts to play like a monster and scores 20 points 3 times in those 14 games and how many times did Patterson do that all last year? 3 total maybe? And JV went down in game 12 or something?

Clear? He's playing awful? Who bases a decision purely on this to move him up in the line-up? Do we do the same with Ross? Its backed up by stats you insist on digging for that are flattering and small samples taking no account for the reasons and situation he played in those games with the starters and the competition he played against, or that he's something like 7 for 28 in losses, which is a big reason, or disregarding any other stat like PER that shows how badly he's playing. You've just latched onto this idea like its truth without being completely objective. If he played even remotely decent in those losses he would have seen more court time and maybe could have earned a start. But he hasn't in any consistent way done this.

Sorry but I'm done with this.

[Steve Urkel]

The only time Bennett played when he was healthy he was good. He was recovering from shoulder surgery in his first season and really should have been sat out until he was ready and in Minnesota he played very well until he got injured again.

hmm "good" is very subjective. I don't really see where he was more than an end of then bench guy looking at his game log

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bennean01/gamelog/2015/

Doesn't look very "good" to me.

If you start to look at Bennett a little more objectively you'll start to see him as an end of the bench big with upside but he really hasn't done anything in his career to warrant giving him minutes. RaptorsFTL brought up a few facts where he compared Patterson and Bennett objectively, specifically noting that Bennett is a negative WS player for his career and has an embarrassing career TS%. It's not hard to see that playing Bennett is not going to have an impact that leads to wins. I really want him to be good and develop but he's stuck behind Scola, Patterson and JJ in the rotation. Ideally he belongs in the D-League.

up until about November 30th he was playing well especially considering he was on a new team. Look at each game where he got 20+ MP

Nov 1 VS Chicago 20Mp Fg 6/7 12pts 5trb 2stl 1Ast 1 Blk
Nov 15 vs Dallas 28 mp Fg 4/8 10pts 7trb 4ast
Nov 21 Vs Spurs 32 mp Fg 9/14 20 pts 3 trb 3stl 1 ast
Nov 22 VS Kings 29 mp fg 5/11 10 pts 6trb 2blk 2ast 1stl
Nov 26 Vs Bucks 21 mp fg 6/11 12pts 4trb 1stl 2blk
Nov 28 vs LAL 28 mp fg 5/8 11pts 3trb 1 ast

He also went 14 pts (6-11 Fg) 10 trb on the spurs on Dec 6 and then got his minutes reduced. Even Demarcus Cousins was giving AB praise early last year,

Patterson is playing like garbage there's no way Ab should be getting benched each game. I'm not saying he's going to be great right away but I'm betting he'll be outplaying Patterson within 15 games of consistent minutes (that's not hard considering Patterson is the least efficient PF in the league averaging more than 20Mpg).

If you pick and choose games anyone looks good, I'm not impressed by Bennett's mediocre stats, those games are average at best anyways. I could easily find a stretch of games where Joey Graham, Terrence Ross or Jerryd Bayless look WAY better than that 6 game sample size . All I'm saying is take off the homer glasses and realize that Bennett is not as talented as you think he is and if anyone deserves minutes, it's James Johnson, he's at least proved that he's a valuable rotation player in the NBA.

[The_Hater]

The only time Bennett played when he was healthy he was good. He was recovering from shoulder surgery in his first season and really should have been sat out until he was ready and in Minnesota he played very well until he got injured again.

hmm "good" is very subjective. I don't really see where he was more than an end of then bench guy looking at his game log

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bennean01/gamelog/2015/

Doesn't look very "good" to me.

If you start to look at Bennett a little more objectively you'll start to see him as an end of the bench big with upside but he really hasn't done anything in his career to warrant giving him minutes. RaptorsFTL brought up a few facts where he compared Patterson and Bennett objectively, specifically noting that Bennett is a negative WS player for his career and has an embarrassing career TS%. It's not hard to see that playing Bennett is not going to have an impact that leads to wins. I really want him to be good and develop but he's stuck behind Scola, Patterson and JJ in the rotation. Ideally he belongs in the D-League.

up until about November 30th he was playing well especially considering he was on a new team. Look at each game where he got 20+ MP

Nov 1 VS Chicago 20Mp Fg 6/7 12pts 5trb 2stl 1Ast 1 Blk
Nov 15 vs Dallas 28 mp Fg 4/8 10pts 7trb 4ast
Nov 21 Vs Spurs 32 mp Fg 9/14 20 pts 3 trb 3stl 1 ast
Nov 22 VS Kings 29 mp fg 5/11 10 pts 6trb 2blk 2ast 1stl
Nov 26 Vs Bucks 21 mp fg 6/11 12pts 4trb 1stl 2blk
Nov 28 vs LAL 28 mp fg 5/8 11pts 3trb 1 ast

He also went 14 pts (6-11 Fg) 10 trb on the spurs on Dec 6 and then got his minutes reduced. Even Demarcus Cousins was giving AB praise early last year,

Patterson is playing like garbage there's no way Ab should be getting benched each game. I'm not saying he's going to be great right away but I'm betting he'll be outplaying Patterson within 15 games of consistent minutes (that's not hard considering Patterson is the least efficient PF in the league averaging more than 20Mpg).

The problem here is that you've identified that PP is a good player playing like garbage right now but you want to replace with a player who simply is garbage. Cherry picking the best 6 game stretch of his career doesn't change that.

[kingr]

Pat has been bad. I like Pat and think he can bounce back. I dislike seeing him pump fake, then to drive to the basket. I only remember seeing misses when he does that.

With that said, for the people who are calling for Anthony Bennett .... This guy has been absolutely terrible every game I've watched him in.

[DrCoach]

Patrick


Bring Nicholson Home

[dhackett1565]

It was clear? We started 5-0. I'm certain thats not when we start him. Then Carrol got hurt. We played 4 games at home and then went on a west coast road trip. 11 on the road. We were supposed to play him sooner that what on the road playing over .500? Then Scola then starts to play like a monster and scores 20 points 3 times in those 14 games and how many times did Patterson do that all last year? 3 total maybe? And JV went down in game 12 or something?

Clear? He's playing awful? Who bases a decision purely on this to move him up in the line-up? Do we do the same with Ross? Its backed up by stats you insist on digging for that are flattering and small samples taking no account for the reasons and situation he played in those games with the starters and the competition he played against, or that he's something like 7 for 28 in losses, which is a big reason, or disregarding any other stat like PER that shows how badly he's playing. You've just latched onto this idea like its truth without being completely objective. If he played even remotely decent in those losses he would have seen more court time and maybe could have earned a start. But he hasn't in any consistent way done this.

Sorry but I'm done with this.

Yes, it was clear. Through that 5-0 start, the Raptors had the 6th worst 1st Q differential in the league. There were problems that were obvious very early on (nevermind even before the season started from a pure skill fit perspective), and were predictive of the eventual losing.

Who said he was playing awful? He's playing very well, it's just not translating to overall success, as he's not on the court with the right guys. I don't want to reduce his minutes at all, 24 MPG for each of Scola and Patterson is perfect, with their averages coming in a little lower to make room for the late game small ball lineup. I just want them playing with different lineups. Scola playing like he is now would be a huge boon for the bench. Patterson's play with the starters has been great and the team should look to foster that.

[bluerap23]

Patterson has shot 35% from 3 when Lowry is on the court versus 29% without him. His on-court net rating with Lowry is +25, without him -13.

Patterson has shot 46% from 3 when DeRozan is on the court versus 20% without him. His on-court net rating with DeRozan is +8, without him +5.

Play Patterson with the starters. All will be well.

The only problem is that the unit stunk with Patterson starting in the preseason. They started to play well when Scola was put in. I think it is worth trying for a couple games (Scola will help the bench too), but normally you start your best and Scola is SO much better right now.

[WorldChamp]

hmm "good" is very subjective. I don't really see where he was more than an end of then bench guy looking at his game log

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bennean01/gamelog/2015/

Doesn't look very "good" to me.

If you start to look at Bennett a little more objectively you'll start to see him as an end of the bench big with upside but he really hasn't done anything in his career to warrant giving him minutes. RaptorsFTL brought up a few facts where he compared Patterson and Bennett objectively, specifically noting that Bennett is a negative WS player for his career and has an embarrassing career TS%. It's not hard to see that playing Bennett is not going to have an impact that leads to wins. I really want him to be good and develop but he's stuck behind Scola, Patterson and JJ in the rotation. Ideally he belongs in the D-League.

up until about November 30th he was playing well especially considering he was on a new team. Look at each game where he got 20+ MP

Nov 1 VS Chicago 20Mp Fg 6/7 12pts 5trb 2stl 1Ast 1 Blk
Nov 15 vs Dallas 28 mp Fg 4/8 10pts 7trb 4ast
Nov 21 Vs Spurs 32 mp Fg 9/14 20 pts 3 trb 3stl 1 ast
Nov 22 VS Kings 29 mp fg 5/11 10 pts 6trb 2blk 2ast 1stl
Nov 26 Vs Bucks 21 mp fg 6/11 12pts 4trb 1stl 2blk
Nov 28 vs LAL 28 mp fg 5/8 11pts 3trb 1 ast

He also went 14 pts (6-11 Fg) 10 trb on the spurs on Dec 6 and then got his minutes reduced. Even Demarcus Cousins was giving AB praise early last year,

Patterson is playing like garbage there's no way Ab should be getting benched each game. I'm not saying he's going to be great right away but I'm betting he'll be outplaying Patterson within 15 games of consistent minutes (that's not hard considering Patterson is the least efficient PF in the league averaging more than 20Mpg).

If you pick and choose games anyone looks good, I'm not impressed by Bennett's mediocre stats, those games are average at best anyways. I could easily find a stretch of games where Joey Graham, Terrence Ross or Jerryd Bayless look WAY better than that 6 game sample size . All I'm saying is take off the homer glasses and realize that Bennett is not as talented as you think he is and if anyone deserves minutes, it's James Johnson, he's at least proved that he's a valuable rotation player in the NBA.

James Johnson's stats are awful and on top of that he's a huge dbag. It's funny how you can hate so much on a player who has never been given a proper change to prove themselves. Ross averaged over 25 mpg for two seasons,Joey graham was not even a top 15 pick and averaged 20 mpg for two season, Jared bayless has averaged 21mpg for 6 season. Hating any of those guys is completely justified because they have had plenty of time to prove themselves and have looked bad (Bayless is average). Also, none of those guys you mentioned are PF/C. PG-SF develop way quicker than PF/C. So All i'm saying is take those hater glasses off and let him develop for a year before judging him on the 40 inconsistent minutes he played on the Raps. Those games I picked weren't random games either I picked the ones where he got over 20 minutes during the stretch where I said he was playing well because you had said he was never more than a bench warmer. Basically what I am saying is that he was killing it early on last season and I saw enough in that stretch to know he is capable of being a rotation player at the very least.

[Johnny Bball]

15 first quarter points from the starter not-Patterson again in a huge game. Keep digging.

[missionman]

I like the idea of 2Pat starting (I don;t love it) in the context of Scola coming off the bench, because as was stated above, the second unit is AWFUL outside of Cojo. 2Pat and TRoss on the floor together is brutal and Biyombo is useful at picking up the garbage only. When I watch games its plainly evident that the Raptors have trouble scoring when that combination is on the floor and the starters' minutes are accumulating like nuts just to stay in games.

But who cares who 'starts'. Just give Scola more time with the second unit. Maybe Casey recognizes what Dhackett has been saying because 2Pat was on the floor for much of the 4th Q tonight against the cavs with Demar, KLow, DC and BB. 2Pat did provide the spacing and did hit a couple of big 3s in the 4th.

[Rapcity_11]

15 first quarter points from the starter not-Patterson again in a huge game. Keep digging.

....PP sure looked good with the starters in the 4th.

[YogurtProducer]

up until about November 30th he was playing well especially considering he was on a new team. Look at each game where he got 20+ MP

Nov 1 VS Chicago 20Mp Fg 6/7 12pts 5trb 2stl 1Ast 1 Blk
Nov 15 vs Dallas 28 mp Fg 4/8 10pts 7trb 4ast
Nov 21 Vs Spurs 32 mp Fg 9/14 20 pts 3 trb 3stl 1 ast
Nov 22 VS Kings 29 mp fg 5/11 10 pts 6trb 2blk 2ast 1stl
Nov 26 Vs Bucks 21 mp fg 6/11 12pts 4trb 1stl 2blk
Nov 28 vs LAL 28 mp fg 5/8 11pts 3trb 1 ast

He also went 14 pts (6-11 Fg) 10 trb on the spurs on Dec 6 and then got his minutes reduced. Even Demarcus Cousins was giving AB praise early last year,

Patterson is playing like garbage there's no way Ab should be getting benched each game. I'm not saying he's going to be great right away but I'm betting he'll be outplaying Patterson within 15 games of consistent minutes (that's not hard considering Patterson is the least efficient PF in the league averaging more than 20Mpg).

If you pick and choose games anyone looks good, I'm not impressed by Bennett's mediocre stats, those games are average at best anyways. I could easily find a stretch of games where Joey Graham, Terrence Ross or Jerryd Bayless look WAY better than that 6 game sample size . All I'm saying is take off the homer glasses and realize that Bennett is not as talented as you think he is and if anyone deserves minutes, it's James Johnson, he's at least proved that he's a valuable rotation player in the NBA.

James Johnson's stats are awful and on top of that he's a huge dbag. It's funny how you can hate so much on a player who has never been given a proper change to prove themselves. Ross averaged over 25 mpg for two seasons,Joey graham was not even a top 15 pick and averaged 20 mpg for two season, Jared bayless has averaged 21mpg for 6 season. Hating any of those guys is completely justified because they have had plenty of time to prove themselves and have looked bad (Bayless is average). Also, none of those guys you mentioned are PF/C. PG-SF develop way quicker than PF/C. So All i'm saying is take those hater glasses off and let him develop for a year before judging him on the 40 inconsistent minutes he played on the Raps. Those games I picked weren't random games either I picked the ones where he got over 20 minutes during the stretch where I said he was playing well because you had said he was never more than a bench warmer. Basically what I am saying is that he was killing it early on last season and I saw enough in that stretch to know he is capable of being a rotation player at the very least.

What James Johnson do you watch that you get dbag and awful? Yet you wanna play AB? GTFO man

[DeadHorse]

I don't think PP's play has warranted the starting position, but I'm sure we can sub out Scola a little early and just let PPat get his minutes in with the starters. Happy he got a few rebounds today

[SaveTheHens]

Do what we're doing. Pat has put in thousands of hours in the gym and in games. A few games of him shooting bad does not sway the average of the player he is. If he's in a slump he'll get out of it. When he's on he's a player we need.