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slothrop8 wrote:Headcase - and not even that good - last night notwithstanding. Wouldn't want him for free to be honest.

I wouldn't go as far as turning him down for free, but in the end, he played no defence, and Patterson most certainly does. Even on bad shooting nights recently, Patterson has been bringing very good defensive efforts and results.

dagger wrote:

artsncrafts wrote:Ross + PP for Markeif and Booker! Get 'er done Masai

A rebuilding team is not going to trade a recent high lottery pick who is doing exceptionally well. He's being sold as part of the future there, not as leverage to move Morris out.

I know, I just wanted to dream big.

Lowry was labeled as a bone-headed, stubborn player that often clashed with his coaches before he arrived in Toronto. I could see Morris turning it around. Z-Bo had a terrible reputation too before he was traded to Memphis. Maybe Masai takes a gamble on him by trading Patterson and a first round pick to get Morris? He's at least worth a middle first round pick if not a lottery pick just talent wise. Also at 8 million per year, he's a very economical option at the 4. The problem is that I believe this raptors team needs a third star and Im not sure if he could be that third star.

dagger wrote:

slothrop8 wrote:Headcase - and not even that good - last night notwithstanding. Wouldn't want him for free to be honest.

I wouldn't go as far as turning him down for free, but in the end, he played no defence, and Patterson most certainly does. Even on bad shooting nights recently, Patterson has been bringing very good defensive efforts and results.

Though this probably is an indication of why you wouldn't trade for him, but he really just doesn't care in Phoenix. Last year he was a good player, and this year, whether it be head case or not, his effort has been lacking.

He reminds me a bit (not of talent level) of Zach Randolph. When he was in NY, no one thought anything of Z-Bo, just a fat, overrated PF, who just played for himself and didn't care. Went to Memphis, staff sat him down and said we can win, and win a lot, with you as our key piece, and his career had a renaissance.

Morris is the type of player you take a chance on, and it could miss, but it might bump you up an echelon ala a Sheed or Z-Bo. Could be wrong, but as you said, I would see what opportunity may lie and what would have to be given up (as everyone is on PP's case, despite not realizing how good a defender he is).

I feel like Keiff is the type of guy Lowry and Derozan would trust to pass the ball too in the clutch - it would really balance our offense.

For those who don't want him, enjoy mediocrity, enjoy another first round exit because that is where this team is heading. Getting Kieff would give us a triple threat in our starting unit for the first time in.....ever? Nobody should be judging him on his output based on this season. He was royally screwed by Phoenix and has every right to be. Why would you want to play for an organization that treats you and your family like that? I feel like on a new team he will have the motivation to go out there and give it his all.

This could be another James Harden situation. Not to that extent... but I firmly believe Kieff could be an all-star on another team. Get em' Masai.

Sandman88 wrote:For those who don't want him, enjoy mediocrity, enjoy another first round exit because that is where this team is heading. Getting Kieff would give us a triple threat in our starting unit for the first time in.....ever? Nobody should be judging him on his output based on this season. He was royally screwed by Phoenix and has every right to be. Why would you want to play for an organization that treats you and your family like that? I feel like on a new team he will have the motivation to go out there and give it his all.

This could be another James Harden situation. Not to that extent... but I firmly believe Kieff could be an all-star on another team. Get em' Masai.

Oh really, you have been in the future, you know this is fact? Because unless it has happened already, you don't.

This is why people cannot take half the posters here seriously.

Scola + Johnson as salary filler + our own 1st pick is the most i'd do for Morris

Patterson brings alot more to this team and giving him up presents a new issue with floor spacing - something that our guards + JV really needs. Presenting a new weakness to the team isn't the type of trade I would do

Kieff is from Philly and Lowry will keep him in check. He is a high-risk, high reward kind of package but these are the kinds of deals you need to make if you want to become a contender. He is on an incredibly friendly contract, and he would be fired up just by leaving Phoenix. Yes he has character issues but remember, so did Lowry once upon a time, now he gels with the coach nicely (post-season not withstanding).

RaptorsFTL wrote:

Sandman88 wrote:For those who don't want him, enjoy mediocrity, enjoy another first round exit because that is where this team is heading. Getting Kieff would give us a triple threat in our starting unit for the first time in.....ever? Nobody should be judging him on his output based on this season. He was royally screwed by Phoenix and has every right to be. Why would you want to play for an organization that treats you and your family like that? I feel like on a new team he will have the motivation to go out there and give it his all.

This could be another James Harden situation. Not to that extent... but I firmly believe Kieff could be an all-star on another team. Get em' Masai.

Oh really, you have been in the future, you know this is fact? Because unless it has happened already, you don't.

This is why people cannot take half the posters here seriously.

And have you been to the future and witness us win a first round? This core is severely flawed they won't win a round without kief.

This why people cannot take half the positive posters on this board seriously.

scopy wrote:

Deadpool Raptor wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS6pGNovW0c[/youtube]

Not much to see here just shooting his mouth off more than anything. Throwing the ball into the stands after the play was pretty bone headed. But nothing like Sheed lol.

Those "running your mouth" techs are the worst. I don't mind a player "showing up a ref" after a foul by running down the sideline etc, but running your mouth all game and talking smack when you are shooting turrbly and aren't that great is a bad sign.

Even suns fans are saying that with Hornachek gone, Kieff is gonna be reborn. In fact, some posters are saying to build around kieff.

Kieff has always had the talent but he never got a fair shake under hornachek. This dude would become our 3 best player on this team instantly.

And to the people who keep talking about his personality, remember that lowry too was considered to be a very arrogant and stubborn player. Look how he turned out. Not to mention that Lowry/Morris are close friends. Lowry would keep him check

Traps13 wrote:

RaptorsFTL wrote:

Sandman88 wrote:For those who don't want him, enjoy mediocrity, enjoy another first round exit because that is where this team is heading. Getting Kieff would give us a triple threat in our starting unit for the first time in.....ever? Nobody should be judging him on his output based on this season. He was royally screwed by Phoenix and has every right to be. Why would you want to play for an organization that treats you and your family like that? I feel like on a new team he will have the motivation to go out there and give it his all.

This could be another James Harden situation. Not to that extent... but I firmly believe Kieff could be an all-star on another team. Get em' Masai.

Oh really, you have been in the future, you know this is fact? Because unless it has happened already, you don't.

This is why people cannot take half the posters here seriously.

And have you been to the future and witness us win a first round? This core is severely flawed they won't win a round without kief.

This why people cannot take half the positive posters on this board seriously.

A team that can barely put away a depleted Suns roster. A team that struggles to put away teams, therefore it has to rely on playing Lowry, and Demar 40 minutes a game. Yeah I know you were probably blinded by the amazing start last year too. You just got fooled again. I don't see the raptors beating any Eastern conference team definitively as presently constructed. I actually see them probably losing to Miami, Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta. Just being a realist. Don't fall for the same sh*t as last year.

RapsRainCity wrote:and just some context - Markieff's been vilified by the PHX press; agreed to lower terms to be with his brother who was then traded; was almost traded himself when they tried to get aldridge; wants to play for a passionate fan base (hint: not PHX); is playing in Phoenix on a crap team for an organization known disrespect its own players (see: Dragic, Z and Dragic, G; Bledsoe, E.) and has been bandied about in rumours for months and months. negative attitude is not the issue.
lowry had attitude problems when the rockets basically shuffled him in and out of their team vision. look what happened to lowry when he got to a situation where he was wanted?

Lowry is good now, but he had problems when he got here, it wasn't all good when he arrived, we almost traded him...

we ended up making the team his and sort of making the culture suit him vs making him fit in. markieff isn't worth the time/risk.

If we don't jump on this the Suns may veyr well keep him. I can't imagine the asking price would be more than first. We don't use them anyway, trade one.

Lord_Zedd wrote:Scola + Johnson as salary filler + our own 1st pick is the most i'd do for Morris

Patterson brings alot more to this team and giving him up presents a new issue with floor spacing - something that our guards + JV really needs. Presenting a new weakness to the team isn't the type of trade I would do

I was just going to say something similar. People keep throwing Pat's name out there like he's some expendable garbage on this team. He's the raps best defender (I guess I could argue Cojo as well) and one of the few guys on this team that can even hit a 3 with some consistency.

In fact the only reason I pull the trigger on a Markieff deal in his current state is if Patterson is still here guarding everyone from the post to the perimeter. Essentially covering Morris' and allowing for more firepower on Offence.

And traditionally you should keep players that have little value to other teams but a lot to your own. A Patpat trade currently would be stupid because he doesn't have much value outside of this team. Give up guys who don't gel as well with this team but have value around the league. As much as I love him, Valanciunas is a guy that fits the bill.

Sandman88 wrote:

Traps13 wrote:

RaptorsFTL wrote:
Oh really, you have been in the future, you know this is fact? Because unless it has happened already, you don't.

This is why people cannot take half the posters here seriously.

And have you been to the future and witness us win a first round? This core is severely flawed they won't win a round without kief.

This why people cannot take half the positive posters on this board seriously.

A team that can barely put away a depleted Suns roster. A team that struggles to put away teams, therefore it has to rely on playing Lowry, and Demar 40 minutes a game. Yeah I know you were probably blinded by the amazing start last year too. You just got fooled again. I don't see the raptors beating any Eastern conference team definitively as presently constructed. I actually see them probably losing to Miami, Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta. Just being a realist. Don't fall for the same sh*t as last year.

Demar plays 36.2 MPG though, and Kyle 36.7 hmm...

Barely put away a depleted Suns roster? Well on a B2B on the road... I mean I guess those Warriors are fools gold too with that buzzer beater against Philly.

Blinded by the amazing start? Well we were 25th in the league in D last year, top 10 this year, top 10 in both this year, with a 30% roster change, and Demar and Kyle playing at brand new levels, and Kyle not falling off due to injury.... So? What are we talking about again?

Or you don't have to put words in my mouth, hyperbolize points, look at the league holistically and then comment, and actually see what's happening instead of knee jerking at every failure?

RaptorsFTL wrote:

Sandman88 wrote:

Traps13 wrote:
And have you been to the future and witness us win a first round? This core is severely flawed they won't win a round without kief.

This why people cannot take half the positive posters on this board seriously.

A team that can barely put away a depleted Suns roster. A team that struggles to put away teams, therefore it has to rely on playing Lowry, and Demar 40 minutes a game. Yeah I know you were probably blinded by the amazing start last year too. You just got fooled again. I don't see the raptors beating any Eastern conference team definitively as presently constructed. I actually see them probably losing to Miami, Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta. Just being a realist. Don't fall for the same sh*t as last year.

Demar plays 36.2 MPG though, and Kyle 36.7 hmm...

Barely put away a depleted Suns roster? Well on a B2B on the road... I mean I guess those Warriors are fools gold too with that buzzer beater against Philly.

Blinded by the amazing start? Well we were 25th in the league in D last year, top 10 this year, top 10 in both this year, with a 30% roster change, and Demar and Kyle playing at brand new levels, and Kyle not falling off due to injury.... So? What are we talking about again?

Or you don't have to put words in my mouth, hyperbolize points, look at the league holistically and then comment, and actually see what's happening instead of knee jerking at every failure?

Cool stats dude.. What was the end result? first round sweep? what about the year before? we were a better defensive team. What was the end result? First round exit?

The team lacks depth and Kyle and Demar need help. Kieff would provide that. If you disagree that's fine, but don't be shocked when Kieff goes to another team and blows up.

Sandman88 wrote:

RaptorsFTL wrote:

Sandman88 wrote:
A team that can barely put away a depleted Suns roster. A team that struggles to put away teams, therefore it has to rely on playing Lowry, and Demar 40 minutes a game. Yeah I know you were probably blinded by the amazing start last year too. You just got fooled again. I don't see the raptors beating any Eastern conference team definitively as presently constructed. I actually see them probably losing to Miami, Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta. Just being a realist. Don't fall for the same sh*t as last year.

Demar plays 36.2 MPG though, and Kyle 36.7 hmm...

Barely put away a depleted Suns roster? Well on a B2B on the road... I mean I guess those Warriors are fools gold too with that buzzer beater against Philly.

Blinded by the amazing start? Well we were 25th in the league in D last year, top 10 this year, top 10 in both this year, with a 30% roster change, and Demar and Kyle playing at brand new levels, and Kyle not falling off due to injury.... So? What are we talking about again?

Or you don't have to put words in my mouth, hyperbolize points, look at the league holistically and then comment, and actually see what's happening instead of knee jerking at every failure?

Cool stats dude.. What was the end result? first round sweep? what about the year before? we were a better defensive team. What was the end result? First round exit?

The team lacks depth and Kyle and Demar need help. Kieff would provide that. If you disagree that's fine, but don't be shocked when Kieff goes to another team and blows up.

Okay, so you are wrong about the numbers, and ignore that. Okay.

Secondly, the conclusion you have come to is under the insinuation that basketball is played in a vacuum and there have been no changes to the team, and the winning and losing is of the same ilk as last year, so again, wrong.

Thirdly, did I discuss Morris? Scroll up a few posts and you will see what I think on Morris.

Why everyone here feels the need to disregard what is actually being discussed and is proven wrong (the MPG, which YOU LISTED), put a point that is looked at without any context (ie last year is the same as this year, just look at record and PO), and then start discussing a narrative that the other person did not bring forth to shift goal posts (me saying that Morris would not be a good addition), is baffling.

Do people really just not want to admit they were wrong?

RaptorsFTL wrote:

Sandman88 wrote:

RaptorsFTL wrote:
Demar plays 36.2 MPG though, and Kyle 36.7 hmm...

Barely put away a depleted Suns roster? Well on a B2B on the road... I mean I guess those Warriors are fools gold too with that buzzer beater against Philly.

Blinded by the amazing start? Well we were 25th in the league in D last year, top 10 this year, top 10 in both this year, with a 30% roster change, and Demar and Kyle playing at brand new levels, and Kyle not falling off due to injury.... So? What are we talking about again?

Or you don't have to put words in my mouth, hyperbolize points, look at the league holistically and then comment, and actually see what's happening instead of knee jerking at every failure?

Cool stats dude.. What was the end result? first round sweep? what about the year before? we were a better defensive team. What was the end result? First round exit?

The team lacks depth and Kyle and Demar need help. Kieff would provide that. If you disagree that's fine, but don't be shocked when Kieff goes to another team and blows up.

Okay, so you are wrong about the numbers, and ignore that. Okay.

Secondly, the conclusion you have come to is under the insinuation that basketball is played in a vacuum and there have been no changes to the team, and the winning and losing is of the same ilk as last year, so again, wrong.

Thirdly, did I discuss Morris? Scroll up a few posts and you will see what I think on Morris.

Why everyone here feels the need to disregard what is actually being discussed and is proven wrong (the MPG, which YOU LISTED), put a point that is looked at without any context (ie last year is the same as this year, just look at record and PO), and then start discussing a narrative that the other person did not bring forth to shift goal posts (me saying that Morris would not be a good addition), is baffling.

Do people really just not want to admit they were wrong?

The 40 minutes was an obvious exaggeration. The point (which isn't hard to grasp) is Kyle and Demar are relied on too heavily. Also, why are you comparing the raptors to the warriors? The warriors put away teams and usually have Steph, Klay, and Draymond resting in the 4th quarter due to the fact they PUT AWAY TEAMS. The raptors do not put away teams, and have to rely on Demar and Kyle and let weak teams back into games. In the 4th quarter they rely on an iso heavy offence surrounding Kyle and Demar. Moral of what I was originally trying to convey is that Kieff would take some pressure off Kyle and Demar, and we'd have another scoring threat. Something that is moreso lacking in the playoffs.