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Patterson not down with Silver's line

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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#61 » by Rapcity_11 » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:44 am

Reg00 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Reg00 wrote:If Jordan can score in the high 20's and 30's in that hand checking, old school environment I don't see how it was that a detriment to perimeter players. This for me is one of the reasons why Jordan will be always the greatest as compared against the modern era guys.


Jordan also played against less sophisticated defenses and defenses that were limited by the old illegal defense rule. So it goes both ways.


Zone defenses were brought in to stop the slower big man oriented approach more than that quicker guys like Jordan. Post play got harder as soon as you could double your man before the catch. Jordan would relish the free flowing offense of today. The triangle that Tex ran in Chicago would do very well in the NBA today, and I am pretty sure Kerr borrowed a lot of the fundamentals of it (lots of passing, multiple shot creators, lots of length) for his GSW team.


Teams couldn't overload the strong side in the past due to illegal defense. That's what I was referring to. Not actual zone defenses.

Furthermore, wing scoring efficiency has stayed relatively flat over the years and there's been a noticeable drop in volume scorers (for example 20+ PPG scorers).
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#62 » by Clementine9 » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:50 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Clementine9 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
I'm 100% anti hand-checking btw. Just making a point.

Teams would still be able to take advantage of poor free throw shooters. As long as they were fouled during legitimate basketball plays. I don't even have strong feelings one way or the other. I just don't understand people getting so up in arms about a potential change.


Well I can definitely agree there. I'm more against change that stops people from taking advantage of bad shooting. But otherwise I know why it's being considered. It's just that I find it difficult to imagine how you can distinguish an intentional foul from an unintentional one (aside from out of bounds fouls I guess). How can they stop guys from playing "overly aggressive defense" that leads to free throws? Hugging a guy off the ball makes sense, but what if you just aggressively body up on him? What worries me about a rule change is that they may have to go in the opposite direction completely, eliminating guys' free throw weakness from impacting the game.


Now that's a much more reasonable take. Way different than the "the league is protecting bad FT shooters" or "it will lead to a league-wide plummet in FT% over the years as kids/teens won't practice FT's" (shout-out to Coach D for that one).

But if you want a solution that avoids your problem above...why not go with the let teams have the option of declining FT's for all off the ball fouls?


Only because I'm not sure that teams shouldn't be allowed to put guys on the line during important parts of the game. No matter where they are on the floor. I don't even see it as a league wide problem. There are only a few guys who play enough and who are bad enough shooters that it really kills the entertainment. I've seen it done on some players who make a bunch, despite having a bad FT% and it stops. There are VERY few guys who have trouble stringing a few together to end it. Because they're the outliers, I feel like the punishment should go on them. Or should at least go on them for a certain amount of free throws.

Declining free throws is an interesting option but to support it I'd have to do more thinking on whether or not it's too advantageous to essentially 3 guys in the league who are so terrible at something that teams have developed this charade.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#63 » by Reg00 » Mon Feb 8, 2016 6:02 am

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Reg00 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Jordan also played against less sophisticated defenses and defenses that were limited by the old illegal defense rule. So it goes both ways.


Zone defenses were brought in to stop the slower big man oriented approach more than that quicker guys like Jordan. Post play got harder as soon as you could double your man before the catch. Jordan would relish the free flowing offense of today. The triangle that Tex ran in Chicago would do very well in the NBA today, and I am pretty sure Kerr borrowed a lot of the fundamentals of it (lots of passing, multiple shot creators, lots of length) for his GSW team.


Teams couldn't overload the strong side in the past due to illegal defense. That's what I was referring to. Not actual zone defenses.

Furthermore, wing scoring efficiency has stayed relatively flat over the years and there's been a noticeable drop in volume scorers (for example 20+ PPG scorers).


Really? Interesting. That surprises me about wing scoring going down. I can't really see how that's true though. Scoring has gone up a lot and there are very few big's that get a lot of points these days.Where is the scoring coming from? A more balanced wing attack I guess. We are seeing a lot of score first PG's though, which still gives my "we are living in a guard dominated NBA rule environment" argument more fire.

But Jordan/Pippen would do quite well in today's game, especially with all the weaker man-on-man options out there. They were both system guys who liked to pass.

Either way. Intentional fouling is lame, by all standards ("entertainment" and "purist" basketball perspective). If a best defensive play starts with subbing in a scrub to foul a opposing player 5 times, then something is annoying.

Anyhoo...I see the other sides view.... I'm not about to stop watching the games if it stays in the rules. I'll just add it to my pet peeves about the current rule environment.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#64 » by Kurtz » Mon Feb 8, 2016 6:05 am

Reg00 wrote:Jordon will still have to take lots of actual basketball based FT's. Drummond will get hacked and hit still, and be sent to the line every time he catches the ball near the basket. I'm not against FT's, I'm against stupid non basketball FT's.


This is a key point. Drummond and DJ will still be sent to the line tons, and will cost their team points through deficiency in this area. It'll just be through normal course of play. They are not being "let off the hook".

All that Silver wants to do is stop the shenanigans that has entered the game over the past 2 years. He's not messing with any sacred fundamentals, he's trying to fix a recent problem.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#65 » by UneducatedFan86 » Mon Feb 8, 2016 6:30 am

Easy fix: If a player is intentionally fouled without the ball/off the ball then the team gets to pick who gets to take the FTs. If the player has the ball, then they must still shoot FTs.

Much like jumping into a player to draw a foul, intentionally going up to a player and just fouling them is not a basketball play. It shouldn't be allowed and it takes away from the game - in my opinion anyways. It needs to be fixed.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#66 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Feb 8, 2016 1:23 pm

UneducatedFan86 wrote:Easy fix: If a player is intentionally fouled without the ball/off the ball then the team gets to pick who gets to take the FTs. If the player has the ball, then they must still shoot FTs.

Much like jumping into a player to draw a foul, intentionally going up to a player and just fouling them is not a basketball play. It shouldn't be allowed and it takes away from the game - in my opinion anyways. It needs to be fixed.


Just let the guy with the ball take the free throws, since that is the person who had their scoring chance taken away.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#67 » by OakleyDokely » Mon Feb 8, 2016 1:43 pm

Duffman100 wrote:Deal with the fact that it takes 45 minutes to play the final 5 minutes of the game. That's a much bigger issue.


yup.

I'd like to see only 1 timeout allowed per team in the final two minutes.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#68 » by beanbag » Mon Feb 8, 2016 2:46 pm

No word on whether Patterson's quote was a result of him looking at his own stat line this season.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#69 » by Dennis 37 » Mon Feb 8, 2016 2:58 pm

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BoyzNTheHood wrote:Yes, this is a professional sport and guys should be held accountable for their shortcomings as the main goal is winning. However, if you can afford to go to one game a year and the coaches turn it into a foul party with free throw shooting becoming the main attraction would you like it? At the end of the day the fans pay for this game to thrive.



Maybe the solution is once you miss five out of ten you are thrown out of the game. You want to play this game and you can't sink free throws, then shoot underhand.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#70 » by Dennis 37 » Mon Feb 8, 2016 3:04 pm

Clementine9 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Clementine9 wrote:
Well I can definitely agree there. I'm more against change that stops people from taking advantage of bad shooting. But otherwise I know why it's being considered. It's just that I find it difficult to imagine how you can distinguish an intentional foul from an unintentional one (aside from out of bounds fouls I guess). How can they stop guys from playing "overly aggressive defense" that leads to free throws? Hugging a guy off the ball makes sense, but what if you just aggressively body up on him? What worries me about a rule change is that they may have to go in the opposite direction completely, eliminating guys' free throw weakness from impacting the game.


Declining free throws is an interesting option but to support it I'd have to do more thinking on whether or not it's too advantageous to essentially 3 guys in the league who are so terrible at something that teams have developed this charade.


Maybe all off ball fouls, or non-shooting fouls, regardless of bonus, should be optional. If you don't want to your poor free throw shooter sent to the line, then instruct him not to shoot.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#71 » by dacrusha » Mon Feb 8, 2016 3:14 pm

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Clementine9 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Ridiculous hyperbole is never a good way to make a point...


That's not ridiculous hyperbole when addressing the point of fan enjoyment. It's literally the same thing in my mind. You are just accommodating someone else's shortcomings.


Except for the part where 1. There's a ton of fans (majority) who wouldn't find more enjoyment in watching 9 foot rims, and 2. That's a fundamental change to the game.

Not even remotely comparable. Like I said, ridiculous hyperbole.


You know what's ridiculous hyperbole?

The league making a rule change to accommodate the 2-3 players that can't hit FTs.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#72 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Feb 8, 2016 3:17 pm

dacrusha wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:
Clementine9 wrote:
That's not ridiculous hyperbole when addressing the point of fan enjoyment. It's literally the same thing in my mind. You are just accommodating someone else's shortcomings.


Except for the part where 1. There's a ton of fans (majority) who wouldn't find more enjoyment in watching 9 foot rims, and 2. That's a fundamental change to the game.

Not even remotely comparable. Like I said, ridiculous hyperbole.


You know what's ridiculous hyperbole?

The league making a rule change to accommodate the 2-3 players that can't hit FTs.


Why does a player fouled off the ball get to shoot free throws? Why isn't it the player with the ball, no matter who gets fouled, that gets to shoot the free throws?

Why does anyone get to shoot free throws once a team is in the bonus? Why does the bonus exist at all? Why is there a 24 second shot clock? Why are there fouls shots at all? Pretty sure foul shots weren't in James Naismith's original rules of basketball. Why did the NBA create the lane? How many players did that 'accommodate'?

The NBA makes changes to it's rules all the time for all kinds of reasons. Having highlights of guys jumping on other players backs show up on Sports Centre as a legitimate strategy is embarrassing for the NBA. Tweaking the rules to 'accommodate' for that isn't insane. It is something any good business would look at doing.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#73 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Feb 8, 2016 3:24 pm

They didn't have a problem when it was Shaq. The league isn't losing fans because Andre Drummond is getting put on the line.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#74 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:14 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:They didn't have a problem when it was Shaq. The league isn't losing fans because Andre Drummond is getting put on the line.


It might not be a big deal, but if there are a number of fairly simple to implement fixes that don't dramatically alter the game or rulebook, I have no idea why anyone would care.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#75 » by beanbag » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:19 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:They didn't have a problem when it was Shaq. The league isn't losing fans because Andre Drummond is getting put on the line.


It might not be a big deal, but if there are a number of fairly simple to implement fixes that don't dramatically alter the game or rulebook, I have no idea why anyone would care.


This, I don't get the uproar. Rule changes occur all the time and you could take any one of them get bent out of shape about it because it helps a certain segment of players and disables others. In this specific case, it prevents slowing the game down to an absolute crawl.

Seems like a good **** idea to me, regardless of who may benefit from it.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#76 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:22 pm

"The last player who had possession on the team that was fouled, shoots the free throws".

The way the rules are currently being enforced, you can prevent Curry from taking a three by jumping on Festus Ezeli.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#77 » by ATLTimekeeper » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:25 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:They didn't have a problem when it was Shaq. The league isn't losing fans because Andre Drummond is getting put on the line.


It might not be a big deal, but if there are a number of fairly simple to implement fixes that don't dramatically alter the game or rulebook, I have no idea why anyone would care.


I think the pushback is because fans do like seeing a weakness exploited. I mean, that's why I'm in favour of the status quo. I love that a talent is somewhat marginalized by their inability to make free throws. I'd be interested in a popularity poll on this, because I think Silver is really just sticking up for Andre Drummond, who is one of the league's stars and especially bad at free throws. If it were just, say, Hassan Whiteside or DeAndre Jordan, I don't think he is moved to action.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#78 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Feb 8, 2016 5:32 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:They didn't have a problem when it was Shaq. The league isn't losing fans because Andre Drummond is getting put on the line.


It might not be a big deal, but if there are a number of fairly simple to implement fixes that don't dramatically alter the game or rulebook, I have no idea why anyone would care.


I think the pushback is because fans do like seeing a weakness exploited. I mean, that's why I'm in favour of the status quo. I love that a talent is somewhat marginalized by their inability to make free throws. I'd be interested in a popularity poll on this, because I think Silver is really just sticking up for Andre Drummond, who is one of the league's stars and especially bad at free throws. If it were just, say, Hassan Whiteside or DeAndre Jordan, I don't think he is moved to action.


I think Nerlens Noel and Jared Dudley ruined it for everyone. And whoever fouled the guy out of bounds. It was like three very dumb highlights in a row that all showed up on PTI and those types of shows.
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#79 » by Latrell » Mon Feb 8, 2016 9:24 pm

Also, Leo (ugh) talked about last week when we played the Pistons. Why doesn't Drummond and DeAndre ever try granny shots? We're gonna let these guys completely off the hook?
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Re: Patterson not down with Silver's line 

Post#80 » by Fairview4Life » Mon Feb 8, 2016 9:33 pm

Latrell wrote:Also, Leo (ugh) talked about last week when we played the Pistons. Why doesn't Drummond and DeAndre ever try granny shots? We're gonna let these guys completely off the hook?


Off the hook for what? Why are they shooting foul shots when they don't have the ball? There is no real reason! Just let the guy with the ball take the foul shots. "Problem" solved, and in a way that makes complete sense.
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