ImageImageImageImageImage

How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average

Moderators: HiJiNX, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, Reeko, lebron stopper, 7 Footer, Duffman100

tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,762
And1: 20,188
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#41 » by tsherkin » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:41 pm

BetterCallSaul wrote:And making them at an efficient rate of 55%ts

Thanks


Nope. TS% considers more than just rate of shots; it includes drawn fouls. That has nothing to do with the quality of his field goal attempts. It's certainly true that he is aggressive going to the rim, but it's when he DOESN'T go to the rim and takes dumb-ass two-point jumpers that we have a problem.

Also, 55% is +0.9% above league average, which is more "not inefficient" than something you want to promote as noteworthy efficiency. It's certainly the best we've seen from him and, in the RS (not the PS), it helped us a lot. He showed some improvements which he didn't carry through into the playoffs.

RonaldArtest wrote:Demar's bbiq isn't off the charts, but it's good.


No, no it isn't good. He's simplistic, slow to learn and has weak improvisational/adaptive skills. His bball IQ is fairly limited. His understanding of passing, for example, is like junior high-level after years of exposure and opportunity. Intuitive play is not his strength, he's a very dim player. He's got good size, above-average athleticism and he bulls to the rim, but in many ways, he's like a durable poor-man's Corey Maggette.

so there's a strong case to be made that he's playing the way his coach wants him to play


So because Demar doesn't argue with Casey being stupid, that's an indication of a positive trait? It's one of the worst things about Casey that he gives free reign of that sort to Kyle and Demar. Being coachable isn't a component of basketball IQ; it's a component of overall mental makeup, but it isn't a reflection of his understanding of the game. Demar is many things, and there is a baseline truth that he is a useful player as he played in the RS. We push his skill set and mental tools past the point where we should. It's pretty clear given how LONG it's taken him to make what should be fairly minimal improvements, and how some things don't change, and how he still reverts to type under pressure, however, that his actual basketball IQ is pretty low.

Keep in mind: low basketball IQ doesn't mean he does EVERYTHING wrong, just that he's a poor decision maker overall. His shot selection is ass to the point that no coach could ever be happy with it, particularly given the results. He's a poor shooter overall but he shoots a lot, which isn't smart. He's frustratingly inconsistent as a playmaker and evidences exceedingly limited vision, and he's a very one-step kind of thinker. He doesn't do anything interesting or with forward planning in mind. He tries to drive, and if that doesn't work, he tries to shoot a J and if all else fails, he passes. Sometimes, he'll drive and then pass, but he's a very linear, simplistic player. You cannot sensibly look at him and see strong basketball IQ.

That's okay, as long as his role doesn't burden him with a lot of decision-making responsibility. This is part of why he works so well alongside Kyle, who is generally a much smarter player. He isn't the dumbest player in the league, but he's definitely a lower-ball IQ kind of guy.
User avatar
Pooh_Jeter
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,572
And1: 9,648
Joined: Apr 29, 2008

Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#42 » by Pooh_Jeter » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:47 pm

Double Helix wrote:
Pooh_Jeter wrote:
Wraps_fan wrote:I mean technically the 2014-2015 season he regressed from 2013-2014

I'm all for using his injury as an excuse for that though, he was so slow and afraid to attack for like 1-2 months after he first came back


This is a fallacy. He started off that year awful so the injury excuse doesn't absolve everything.

Also, his 3rd year was a drop off from his sophomore year.


I liken this more to Demar working on something in an offseason and then trying to work it into games but it not quite being ready for prime time yet. The first year he really worked on 3s is still his highest volume of attempts. He took to many and it hurt him. The first year he really tried to become a better ball handler and passer he needed work. There is a step back and then he has a breakthrough and moves forward with more in his arsenal.

Last year was the year all the thjngs he'd been working on came together for him. His ball handling work combined with his slashing style made him one of the best high usage attacking pick and roll ball handlers in all of basketball

His passing improvements from a couple years earlier maintained.

His 3 point shooting work brought him closer to 35% on a higher volume than Wade ever had from 3 at this age.

It all combined to create an offensive season that statistically reminded of some of Carmelo Anthony's prime years and wasn't that far removed from some of Vince Carter's best seasons in Toronto.


I don't think even the most ardent DeRozan "hater" would argue he hasn't improved his overall game significantly since his rookie season. That being said I hate the false equivalency and moving of goalposts when you attempt to discuss his current and future impact.

As you have noted there have been ebbs and flows in his play so the blind argument that "he improves every year" simply adds to a false narrative. It's as if some people assume he will continue to get better until suddenly he decides to retire.

From all accounts Demar has a great work ethic and showcases tremendous dedication to basketball. That being said the vast majority of elite athletes work their absolute butts off in order to not only make their respective professional leagues, but to stay there and get better. It's as if having a good work ethic suddenly transcends any criticism or concerns.

I'm not singling you out at all DH, but I just find way too many debates surrounding DD end up with a large segment of people just harping on the same tired talking point. Sure, there is an element of this on the opposite side as well, but I think the arguments presented aren't completely based on a fallacy.
alienchild wrote:Again, I hope the basketball gods give us the 14th pick in the draft. I hope OG asks for a trade, Birch signs elsewhere and GTJ signs an offer sheet and Raptors don't match. Frankly Masai is dead to me.
User avatar
Wargreymon
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,578
And1: 6,450
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
 

Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#43 » by Wargreymon » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:07 am

Well according to Lakers fans on the GB, he's already on the decline and that he "overachieved" last year. Hell they think Mosgov and Nick Young are better players than a 26 year old 2x NBA All Star/USA Olympian entering his prime years.
Image
ManBeast
Junior
Posts: 431
And1: 193
Joined: Jun 15, 2016

Re: Re: Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#44 » by ManBeast » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:55 am

CoachJReturns wrote:
BismackonLebron wrote:
ManBeast wrote:Why would you keep him if you want him te be a point guard.

We have a great point guard who can feed the bigmen.

If that is the direction to inprove we need defense and shooting and the sg spot.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

I'd love to trade hi but that's not going to happen he is the face of the franchise so he better Improve. He draws alot of attention from the defense and should focus on increasing his apg for the benefit of the team. Kobe Bryant wasn't a point guard and he averaged over 6 apg in his prime. With the amount of possessions Demar gets he is capable of getting 6 assists if he becomes more unselfish.

Yeah, it isn't a matter of becoming a point guard. It's a matter of playing to his strengths. He's not a good catch and shoot guy, but Lowry is a very good one. Demar is also a very good scorer out of the pick and role, or so the stats someone posted the other day indicated, so why not give him a couple more possessions there and a couple less iso plays? I don't know what his passing is like out of the pick and role, but if he's good there then it could work very nicely. Besides, I for one find the team a lot more entertaining in the games where Demar is more of a facilitator.
Just as a side note but some of the greatest shooting guards of all time had some high assist seasons and these were guys who were much better scorers than Demar is.

Jordan, Kobe, Iverson.

No shame being in company with that group.

Tes. Demar is easily in a class with Jordan

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk
BismackonLebron
Pro Prospect
Posts: 764
And1: 481
Joined: May 19, 2016

Re: Re: Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#45 » by BismackonLebron » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:22 pm

ManBeast wrote:
CoachJReturns wrote:
BismackonLebron wrote:I'd love to trade hi but that's not going to happen he is the face of the franchise so he better Improve. He draws alot of attention from the defense and should focus on increasing his apg for the benefit of the team. Kobe Bryant wasn't a point guard and he averaged over 6 apg in his prime. With the amount of possessions Demar gets he is capable of getting 6 assists if he becomes more unselfish.

Yeah, it isn't a matter of becoming a point guard. It's a matter of playing to his strengths. He's not a good catch and shoot guy, but Lowry is a very good one. Demar is also a very good scorer out of the pick and role, or so the stats someone posted the other day indicated, so why not give him a couple more possessions there and a couple less iso plays? I don't know what his passing is like out of the pick and role, but if he's good there then it could work very nicely. Besides, I for one find the team a lot more entertaining in the games where Demar is more of a facilitator.
Just as a side note but some of the greatest shooting guards of all time had some high assist seasons and these were guys who were much better scorers than Demar is.

Jordan, Kobe, Iverson.

No shame being in company with that group.

Tes. Demar is easily in a class with Jordan

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

DeMar>MJ. In terms of chucking
CoachJReturns
RealGM
Posts: 13,298
And1: 10,535
Joined: Mar 26, 2012

Re: Re: Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#46 » by CoachJReturns » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:32 pm

ManBeast wrote:
CoachJReturns wrote:
BismackonLebron wrote:I'd love to trade hi but that's not going to happen he is the face of the franchise so he better Improve. He draws alot of attention from the defense and should focus on increasing his apg for the benefit of the team. Kobe Bryant wasn't a point guard and he averaged over 6 apg in his prime. With the amount of possessions Demar gets he is capable of getting 6 assists if he becomes more unselfish.

Yeah, it isn't a matter of becoming a point guard. It's a matter of playing to his strengths. He's not a good catch and shoot guy, but Lowry is a very good one. Demar is also a very good scorer out of the pick and role, or so the stats someone posted the other day indicated, so why not give him a couple more possessions there and a couple less iso plays? I don't know what his passing is like out of the pick and role, but if he's good there then it could work very nicely. Besides, I for one find the team a lot more entertaining in the games where Demar is more of a facilitator.
Just as a side note but some of the greatest shooting guards of all time had some high assist seasons and these were guys who were much better scorers than Demar is.

Jordan, Kobe, Iverson.

No shame being in company with that group.

Tes. Demar is easily in a class with Jordan

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

lol. He's nowhere near being with any of those guys. They're all MVPs. I simply meant that there's no reason a shooting guard on high usage can't also put up some higher assist numbers. Not like Demar's a good shooter, so why not make distributing a bigger part of his game?
Image
tsherkin
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 78,762
And1: 20,188
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Re: Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#47 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:24 pm

CoachJReturns wrote:lol. He's nowhere near being with any of those guys. They're all MVPs. I simply meant that there's no reason a shooting guard on high usage can't also put up some higher assist numbers. Not like Demar's a good shooter, so why not make distributing a bigger part of his game?


I wouldn't even worry about those guys. The kind of dynamic volume scorer who can also be 5+ apg players is very rare and a superstar talent. Demar needs to focus on being a more efficient Jerry Stackhouse at this point... basically, replicating what he did in the 2016 regular season. Then, he was passing pretty well; not amazing, not super-dynamic, but his decision-making was visibly different in years past and it made a HUGE difference to our team when he wouldn't overdribble, trap himself or fail to hit the open man.

It's also noticeably not an overachievement, because he'd been doing it in the 2014 regular season as well. We just need to work on him maintaining the same style of play into the postseason.
theonlyeastcoastrapsfan
RealGM
Posts: 26,340
And1: 8,676
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Location: Hotlantic Canada
 

Re: How Much More Longer Can Demar Sustain His Average 

Post#48 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:12 pm

Maybe like 5, 6:30?

Return to Toronto Raptors