ImageImageImageImageImage

NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?)

Moderators: HiJiNX, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, Reeko, lebron stopper, 7 Footer, Duffman100

User avatar
Westside Gunn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,096
And1: 6,071
Joined: Jul 03, 2016
       

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#181 » by Westside Gunn » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:21 pm

shefcurry wrote:
curryking3 wrote:
Garlic Sauce wrote:Curryking, these things were considered mental illnesses in the manual of the APA.

Whether they were included as illnesses and excluded later based on political pressure or scientific reasoning is another discussion.

It can be based on biological constructs, it could be based on life experiences and the environment around you.

Correct. Key word: were or was. There was absolutely no medical justification to consider them mental illnesses, however. Of course now, the DSM obviously do not include these as examples of mental illness.

Psychiatric diagnoses are heavily influenced by societal norms, especially were in the past, and even continue to be today here, and in foreign countries.



You're incorrect about this. The DSM still addresses it as a treatable illness. They changed the terminology from "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria" in order to prevent discrimination based on the term "disorder", but they still provide treatment if it is sought.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf


I was referring to homosexuality, but I'll read this anyway.
i miss the days when the bricks was only nineteeeeeeeen, i need a 100 right now
User avatar
refshateRaps
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,911
And1: 7,931
Joined: Feb 08, 2014

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#182 » by refshateRaps » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:58 pm

I don't agree with the Law whatsoever BUT as others point out this could be done for so many other Political issues. Where do they draw the line? Is the sport I enjoyed since a kid now involved in Politics? Really?

This is likely the way of the future. You want money and jobs? Obey. As Democracy for better or worse is no longer relevant. NBA is just another leg in the Big Corporate Octopus... What happened to the idea of Democracy? I Guess aside from the formality we can assume voting is useless.

Ask Twitter why they removed #DNCLeaks? How did Google Execs fund towards the Obama admin? Republicans/Democrats, Conservatives/Liberals, Left/Right, all the same just a different Corporate team behind them

That's the bigger issue.

But keep dreaming of you think the #NBACares about anything more than their pocketbook.
Image
C_Money
RealGM
Posts: 25,367
And1: 25,596
Joined: Jun 30, 2008
       

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#183 » by C_Money » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:45 pm

What does the Q stand for in LGBTQ?
Image
User avatar
Westside Gunn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,096
And1: 6,071
Joined: Jul 03, 2016
       

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#184 » by Westside Gunn » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:54 pm

C_Money wrote:What does the Q stand for in LGBTQ?


Its questioning or queer.
i miss the days when the bricks was only nineteeeeeeeen, i need a 100 right now
User avatar
Gold Dragon
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,981
And1: 4,582
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Oz
 

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#185 » by Gold Dragon » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:22 pm

Gender dysphoria is only present when there is significant distress. If there is no distress about gender identity, the disorder is not there.

It can be though of as a subset of anxiety disorders where the subject of the anxiety happens to be gender identity.

Most transgendered folks do have to go through a period of gender dysphoria before they come to terms with their identity. Others experience gender dysphoria for much of their lives. A lot of that is because they are victims of harassment not perpetrators.
kj_
Analyst
Posts: 3,329
And1: 3,298
Joined: Feb 06, 2013

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-b... 

Post#186 » by kj_ » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:41 am

refshateRaps wrote:I don't agree with the Law whatsoever BUT as others point out this could be done for so many other Political issues. Where do they draw the line? Is the sport I enjoyed since a kid now involved in Politics? Really?

This is likely the way of the future. You want money and jobs? Obey. As Democracy for better or worse is no longer relevant. NBA is just another leg in the Big Corporate Octopus... What happened to the idea of Democracy? I Guess aside from the voting formality I guess we can assume it's done.

Ask Twitter why they removed #DNCLeaks? How did Google Execs fund towards the Obama admin? Republicans/Democrats, Conservatives/Liberals, Left/Right, all the same just a different Corporate team behind them

That's the bigger issue.

But keep dreaming of you think the #NBACares about anything more than their pocketbook.


It seems to me like they are being a socially progressive league supporting human rights. Seems like the right choice to me. Clearly the moral compass of many in Carolina if off. History will show this to be the case.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums
User avatar
curryking3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,199
And1: 4,994
Joined: Feb 03, 2013
       

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#187 » by curryking3 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:31 pm

Gold Dragon wrote:Gender dysphoria is only present when there is significant distress. If there is no distress about gender identity, the disorder is not there.

It can be though of as a subset of anxiety disorders where the subject of the anxiety happens to be gender identity.

Most transgendered folks do have to go through a period of gender dysphoria before they come to terms with their identity. Others experience gender dysphoria for much of their lives. A lot of that is because they are victims of harassment not perpetrators.

It's nice to know at least some of the peeps in Toronto and Canada have got to that stage to be able to interpret these terms and writings correctly to know what they are talking about. +1 sir.

For a person to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, there must be a marked difference between the
individual’s expressed/experienced gender and the gender others would assign him or her, and it must
continue for at least six months. In children, the desire to be of the other gender must be present and
verbalized. This condition causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or
other important areas of functioning

"Significant distress" and "impairment of functioning" in different settings is part of several clinical disorders, including anxiety disorders mentioned before, and even items like obsessive-compulsive disorder. It's not generally a disorder, until it impairs functioning or interferes with other parts of daily life, and does so for 6 months (or other durations for other disorders). And neither does the document state anywhere that the disorder of gender identity is equivalent to transgenderism or any other LGBT identity.

The factors in this primer clearly differentiate something like gender dysphoria and LGBT identity. These primers, and even full documents, are also not meant for lay people to understand without any background in psychiatric disorders or terminology. They are meant for medical and psychiatric trainees and professional who know how to use the terminology to differentiate between what falls under the diagnoses and what does not.

This is a big point of confusion for lay people who are motivated to seek out a mental illness criteria for LGBT identity where there is none, several of which are in this thread and can hopefully be educated otherwise. This is an issue of being culturally or socially influenced to believe a certain way, often without direct experience with LGBT persons in a medical setting or otherwise, and a lack of understanding of the terminology.

All of the above makes it even more dangerous for lay people to jump the gun and assume what was written agrees with something it in fact does not agree with or support at all.
refshateRaps wrote:This is likely the way of the future. You want money and jobs? Obey. As Democracy for better or worse is no longer relevant. NBA is just another leg in the Big Corporate Octopus... What happened to the idea of Democracy? I Guess aside from the formality we can assume voting is useless.

I don't know what's worse, that you don't think this is a step forward, or that you think in the past it was any different.

And obey to what? Be yourself and be who you are, is obeying? To whom? Obeying was making people hide their identity to serve in the military or get a job in the first place. Obeying is having to hide your relationship and not receive any benefits of such a relationship with another consenting adult, because it is not yet legally approved.

And neither is democracy is a means for trampling on people's rights. Something which the NBA and so many other businesses are protecting in their home country through these actions. Also see: Supreme Court of Canada for further information in our own country.

It's just so embarrassing how easily the logic of such arguments falls apart so easily. Like you guys actually don't consider the ramifications of what you guys are insinuating or what the alternative is. That's just really, really sad.

You seem intent on promoting an idealogy which restricts the rights of other people, probably whom you don't even know personally, probably whom have no interest in you either, and don't affect your daily life at all I can bet, while complaining that you have to obey anyone or do anything any differently to go on about your life, all at the same time while trying to pretend like anyone is trying to restrict your rights. Absolutely foolish to act like a victim while advocating for restrictions of rights of others.
User avatar
OAKLEY_2
RealGM
Posts: 19,508
And1: 8,867
Joined: Dec 19, 2008

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#188 » by OAKLEY_2 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:35 pm

tsherkin wrote:So, I think it bears mention that referencing older "understanding" of conditions from previous periods in North American history which were defined by ruthless bigotry is probably not a sensible contribution to this conversation. We're not that far past race riots... and the Civil Rights Restoration Act in the US is like a quarter century old. Our appreciation and devotion to not being douchebags to women is far more recent, and less successful.

Referencing our past to discuss the present context reflects an embarrassing absence of context given the hate-filled rhetoric which has been perpetuated around non-standard sexuality (be it in orientation or gender association).

This thread needs to tread lightly. Very, very lightly.


Rights are rights. Extended to all or to none. Modern law is based on past precedence. Comparing this to a violation of civil rights is wholly relevant.
User avatar
Westside Gunn
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,096
And1: 6,071
Joined: Jul 03, 2016
       

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#189 » by Westside Gunn » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:48 pm

The factors in this primer clearly differentiate something like gender dysphoria and LGBT identity. These primers, and even full documents, are also not meant for lay people to understand without any background in psychiatric disorders or terminology. They are meant for medical and psychiatric trainees and professional who know how to use the terminology to differentiate between what falls under the diagnoses and what does not.


This is what you are doing though, unless you have a background in it.
i miss the days when the bricks was only nineteeeeeeeen, i need a 100 right now
treerollins
Senior
Posts: 647
And1: 290
Joined: Mar 05, 2007

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#190 » by treerollins » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:11 pm

omgwtfbbq
waiting for ai referees
User avatar
Parataxis
General Manager
Posts: 8,911
And1: 5,304
Joined: Jan 31, 2010
Location: Penticton, BC
       

Re: Woj: NBA on brink of moving ASG from Charlotte to New Orleans 

Post#191 » by Parataxis » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:27 am

gerrit4 wrote:
Raptorfan2012 wrote:I do not agree with the NBA on this one. I am not agreeing with the bills passed in Charlotte, but I just think the NBA should stick to basketball and stay out of politics.


I think that's fair. I'm fine with them doing it because I agree with the cause, but at the same time I'm not sure that it's their place to do so. I'm sure that if they were taking a stance I didn't agree with, I'd think it was absurd...


The thing is, you can't 'stay out of politics' on this one. If you leave the ASG there, then you're condoning the law - you're making it so that your transgendered fans can't pee at the ASG. Doing nothing in the face of discrimination isn't neutrality.
User avatar
Parataxis
General Manager
Posts: 8,911
And1: 5,304
Joined: Jan 31, 2010
Location: Penticton, BC
       

Re: Re: Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#192 » by Parataxis » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:44 am

VinBaker6 wrote:This is also an honest question I've always had: If gender is a social construct, then why do people who change their gender as transgender need to become super feminine/masculine (like wearing dresses, long hair, tons of makeup, etc). Why feel the need to change at all if gender is just a social construct (at least on the outside)? I'm just curious, I hope wondering that doesn't make me a bigot.



A few points to answer your questions.

i) People don't change their gender. Their gender is what it always was. Transfolk though, were wrongly assigned a mistaken gender at birth. They're attempting to change YOUR mis-interpretation of their gender, not their gender itself.

ii) Not all transpeople become super feminine/masculine. Some do. Others don't. There are tomboy transwomen. There are effeminate transmen. There are genderqueer folk who don't really fit in either category.

This is no different from cispeople. Some cismen are super masculine. Some aren't. Some ciswomen are super feminine. Some aren't. Presentation is not the same as identity.

iii) The reason people go to extraordinary lengths to change their legal gender to conform to their actual gender is because - even though it's just a social construct - it's a social construct that society gives power. It's a social construct that limits their access to places and services. It's a social construct that changes how people treat them. Men want to be treated as men (in the eyes of the law and their friends) and women want to be treated as women (in the same ways).
User avatar
Gold Dragon
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,981
And1: 4,582
Joined: Jul 02, 2006
Location: Oz
 

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#193 » by Gold Dragon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:17 am

Garlic Sauce wrote:
The factors in this primer clearly differentiate something like gender dysphoria and LGBT identity. These primers, and even full documents, are also not meant for lay people to understand without any background in psychiatric disorders or terminology. They are meant for medical and psychiatric trainees and professional who know how to use the terminology to differentiate between what falls under the diagnoses and what does not.


This is what you are doing though, unless you have a background in it.


I am not a lay person in this field. But you don't need to be in the field to read the actual document that shefcurry linked and correctly interpret the following sentences.

It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.


shefcurry wrote:You're incorrect about this. The DSM still addresses it as a treatable illness. They changed the terminology from "gender identity disorder" to "gender dysphoria" in order to prevent discrimination based on the term "disorder", but they still provide treatment if it is sought.

http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf
User avatar
curryking3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,199
And1: 4,994
Joined: Feb 03, 2013
       

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#194 » by curryking3 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:34 pm

Garlic Sauce wrote:
The factors in this primer clearly differentiate something like gender dysphoria and LGBT identity. These primers, and even full documents, are also not meant for lay people to understand without any background in psychiatric disorders or terminology. They are meant for medical and psychiatric trainees and professional who know how to use the terminology to differentiate between what falls under the diagnoses and what does not.

This is what you are doing though, unless you have a background in it.

"But you're doing it too." No, not at all.

GoldDragon is correct you don't *need* to have a background though to understand what it says though. It just helps to have a background in it to more easily interpret what is actually written. If you read it closely enough it isn't a problem, but if you don't that's where the misunderstandings come from.

Plus if you start from a pre-conception that LGBT-isms *should* be mental illnesses, you might make the mistake that shefcurry did and assume meaning from this document that is not there.

He was partially right about changing the name of the disorder though, and what he stated was part of the reason they changed the name to dysphoria over identity disorder. The only issue though is he took what he understood about the name change and and then extrapolated something else entirely: that gender dysphoria is a disorder equivalent to being LGBT, which it absolutely is not.

This is actually a much better article that hits on some important points of what gender dysphoria is (and isn't) and how it can be a mental health issue and also how it plays into getting surgical re-assignment: http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2012/07/23/dsm-replaces-gender-identity-disorder-gender-dysphoria
Raptorfan2012
Head Coach
Posts: 6,234
And1: 4,248
Joined: Mar 25, 2012

Re: Woj: NBA on brink of moving ASG from Charlotte to New Orleans 

Post#195 » by Raptorfan2012 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:59 pm

Parataxis wrote:
gerrit4 wrote:
Raptorfan2012 wrote:I do not agree with the NBA on this one. I am not agreeing with the bills passed in Charlotte, but I just think the NBA should stick to basketball and stay out of politics.


I think that's fair. I'm fine with them doing it because I agree with the cause, but at the same time I'm not sure that it's their place to do so. I'm sure that if they were taking a stance I didn't agree with, I'd think it was absurd...


The thing is, you can't 'stay out of politics' on this one. If you leave the ASG there, then you're condoning the law - you're making it so that your transgendered fans can't pee at the ASG. Doing nothing in the face of discrimination isn't neutrality.


Business can stay out of politics, especially if they had already committed to the games beforehand. It is also not fair for the fans who waited for the games, or the local business that had plans to take do some business with the extra amount of tourists coming in that weekend. And really, the NBA should prioritize their paying customers first before getting involved in politics.
kj_
Analyst
Posts: 3,329
And1: 3,298
Joined: Feb 06, 2013

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-b... 

Post#196 » by kj_ » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:18 pm

^
I'm pretty sure the LGBTQ community and friends and family of that community are paying customers too. This "political" issue is a people issue.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums
User avatar
curryking3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,199
And1: 4,994
Joined: Feb 03, 2013
       

Re: Woj: NBA on brink of moving ASG from Charlotte to New Orleans 

Post#197 » by curryking3 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:14 pm

Raptorfan2012 wrote:Business can stay out of politics, especially if they had already committed to the games beforehand. It is also not fair for the fans who waited for the games, or the local business that had plans to take do some business with the extra amount of tourists coming in that weekend. And really, the NBA should prioritize their paying customers first before getting involved in politics.

Businesses have not and will not stay out of politics no matter what impression you may hold about their role in society. It is not what happens now, it is not what has happened in the past, and it is certainly not what will happen in the future.

This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last time, that businesses take a moral stand on social issues. Discrimination against consumer groups is incompatible with the objectives of businesses to sell products and services.

The assumption that this decision only affects what happens in North Carolina for these businesses is also untrue. Not only for the consciences of the people leading the businesses, but also for their business image and bottom line throughout the United States, which for those of you who are unaware is still the largest economy in the world, and the rest of the world as well.
User avatar
-TheDocOfDenial
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,786
And1: 9,179
Joined: Dec 15, 2013
 

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#198 » by -TheDocOfDenial » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:40 pm

With out going in to politics, this law is dumb any way because there is no way they can enforce it. What are they going to do, have a police officer stand there and check your birth certificate every time you go to the bathroom. :lol:
YogiStewart
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 25,812
And1: 6,400
Joined: Aug 08, 2007
Location: Its ALL about Location, Location, Location!

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#199 » by YogiStewart » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:31 pm

the closest equivalent would be the 1936 summer Olympics, held in Berlin.

If you use that as the worst case scenario for everything, and realize that most of the world was repugnant in their capitulation to the Germans and their sick ideology, and their complacency (and, in some instances, compliance with Nazi policies) ultimately played into the hands of the German government's ideology.

If you don't take a stand against a government's morally-incorrect policies, then you are complacent and you allow them to get away with morally bankrupt activities.

if you take a stand, bring awareness and let money talk, then perhaps the government - or, ultimately, the voters - will naval gaze and maybe, just maybe have a change in heart.

Mr Silver should be commended for doing this. if the World Cup did the same thing to Qatar and Russia instead of rewarding them for their use of slave labour, migrant worker deaths (Qatar) and aggressive world policies and their role in the massacre of Syrian people (Russia), then the world would likely be a slightly better place.

i only wish there were more Adam Silver-like people back in the 1930s to shove it to the German government. isolating them could have played a part in saving many, many lives.

i'll leave you with an image from the Berlin Olympics. not allowing trans people to have the same rights as other humans is a similar salute to the state.

Image
shefcurry
Junior
Posts: 430
And1: 616
Joined: Mar 30, 2016

Re: NBA pulls ASG from Charlotte over anti-LGBTQ law (Woj says it's New Orleans-bound?) 

Post#200 » by shefcurry » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:31 pm

People seem to be misunderstanding my position.

I am pro-trans rights. I am, however, vehemently opposed to ignorant argumentation and slapping incorrect labels on something. My feeling is that people know next to nothing about the issue, and argue against what they THINK the issue to be. This creates division instead of dialogue.

Here are my beefs:

Issue #1 - it's not an "Anti-LGBTQ" law. Fact. The law has nothing to do with LGBQ. It is concerned only with T. To call it Anti-LGBTQ is a political statement and immediatley draws out the "hate" label. The label itself is political and designed to get people enraged.

Issue #2 - there is no actual evidence of any "hate" here. If you listen to their side, they have legitimate practical concerns, which are neither unreasonable nor "hating". If there is actual hate involved, then I am happy to hear it. But everything I've heard suggests their prime motivator is not "hate" at all. Not even close.

Now, is it possible that the laws are based on fallacious misunderstandings and a lack of evidence? Yes. Is it possible that some people could be supporting the laws out of prejudice? Yes. But is it possible that not everyone who supports the laws is prejudiced against trans people? Yes. Is it possible that corporations like the NBA are just grandstanding and virtue-signalling about LGBTQ rights, to make themselves look more progressive, and don't really case about the facts involved? Personally, I think so.

I have absolutely no issue at all if people think the laws are bad and should be repealed. But let's base our opinion on facts and dialogue, and get rid of the incorrect labels and actually discuss the issue with facts and evidence.

Return to Toronto Raptors