Tim and Sid: how close are the Raptors to Contention?

[nbafan341]

People who bring up the salary cap:
If masai needs to clear salary cap, he can move cojo, carroll, valancuinas.

doesnt matter how reasonable the contracts masai has given out, we can find talent to replace those players either by the draft, current players on the roaster, or free agents who may be overlooked by many.

But when you trade a Cojo or JV (no one is taking carroll) you are becoming a worse team. If the point is to get space, you are losing that player for either an expiring you won't sign or a prospect that isn't as good as the player you traded.

I know where youre coming from but that isnt always the case. Not everyone will agree, but some moves that masai had made resulted in addition by subtraction. We improved by getting rid of both bargs and rudy gay. Jv, despite his offensive talent, has potential to also be addition by subtraction. Cojo isnt a unique enough talent where if you lose him, you'll be a worse team. his defence is avg this yr despitr being our best defender last yr and some would think that powell, delon, and vanvleet can match his productivity.

[Sherlock]

Consolidating your assets IS NOT mortgaging the future.

Powell can't find any PT.
Siakam wouldn't have gotten any minutes has Sully been healthy.
Poeltl is behind JV and Bebe and wouldn't get any real minutes either.
Wright is behind Kyle and Cojo and is most likely going to spend the rest of the year in the 905 or until Cojo is traded.

Do we really need 2 first rounders this year plus our second rounder(s) ( haven't checked to see if we own any 2nd round picks).

Not that this overhaul would happen, but something like this still allowes you to keep Poeltl, Powell and Wright. Essentially giving up Siakam and this year's picks.

Cojo + JV + LAC pick for Whiteside ( as many have mentioned in the other thread)
BeBe/Siakam + Ross + Demarre + this year's pick and a 2nd for Milsap + Thabo and Hardaway.

Kyle/Wright/FVV
DD/ Hardaway
Thabo/Powell/ Bruno
Milsap /PP ( Sully is out after this year)
Whiteside/ Poeltl

We would maintain the same projected salary next year, but if you don't think this team can beat the Cavs, then I don't know what else we can do lol

If that's all it took to get those trades done, I'd absolutely sign up for it.

[LonZoBallin]

People who bring up the salary cap:
If masai needs to clear salary cap, he can move cojo, carroll, valancuinas.

doesnt matter how reasonable the contracts masai has given out, we can find talent to replace those players either by the draft, current players on the roaster, or free agents who may be overlooked by many.

But when you trade a Cojo or JV (no one is taking carroll) you are becoming a worse team. If the point is to get space, you are losing that player for either an expiring you won't sign or a prospect that isn't as good as the player you traded.

I know where youre coming from but that isnt always the case. Not everyone will agree, but some moves that masai had made resulted in addition by subtraction. We improved by getting rid of both bargs and rudy gay. Jv, despite his offensive talent, has potential to also be addition by subtraction. Cojo isnt a unique enough talent where if you lose him, you'll be a worse team. his defence is avg this yr despitr being our best defender last yr and some would think that powell, delon, and vanvleet can match his productivity.

Those were rebuilding moves when the team was at a different stage. Doing these type of moves now is very treadmill ish. We aren't good enough now so lets replace our current players with prospects behind them in the depth chart. That's definitely not getting better, it's putting a band-aid on something that isn't even good enough rn while losing an asset.

The move is to trade multiple assets for one piece that allows you to at least be in the conversation and get lucky against the cavs/warriors.

or

Trade Lowry or Derozan. Because this plan to remain cap flexible while losing pieces just to stay under the cap is just going to delay the inevitable. If the plan is to trade Cojo for space and have dwright replace him. Then maybe trade JV for space the year after and have Poeltl replace him(when you have to pay norm) You are just going to continue to maintain if not get worse. Def won't get better losing players for cap space.

[yassillio]

Consolidating your assets IS NOT mortgaging the future.

Powell can't find any PT.
Siakam wouldn't have gotten any minutes has Sully been healthy.
Poeltl is behind JV and Bebe and wouldn't get any real minutes either.
Wright is behind Kyle and Cojo and is most likely going to spend the rest of the year in the 905 or until Cojo is traded.

Do we really need 2 first rounders this year plus our second rounder(s) ( haven't checked to see if we own any 2nd round picks).

Not that this overhaul would happen, but something like this still allowes you to keep Poeltl, Powell and Wright. Essentially giving up Siakam and this year's picks.

Cojo + JV + LAC pick for Whiteside ( as many have mentioned in the other thread)
BeBe/Siakam + Ross + Demarre + this year's pick and a 2nd for Milsap + Thabo and Hardaway.

Kyle/Wright/FVV
DD/ Hardaway
Thabo/Powell/ Bruno
Milsap /PP ( Sully is out after this year)
Whiteside/ Poeltl

We would maintain the same projected salary next year, but if you don't think this team can beat the Cavs, then I don't know what else we can do lol

If that's all it took to get those trades done, I'd absolutely sign up for it.

I wouldn't know bud, but I do know this:

Getting a rookie in Siakam or a back up big in Bebe + 2 picks + Ross + DC (they prob say no because of DC but I couldn't match the salaries otherside) >>>>>>Losing Milsap for nothing this summer ( * See Horford)

If the Heat are serious about "retooling", then they get a back up PG, you get a starting C, and a pick in the mid 20's. They have no picks in sight for the near future. Now with that said, they could probably do better than this offer.

[faitaccompli]

He's saying Raps have too many holes and mortgaging young assets or the future to go all in in the near-term would be a mistake.

Clearly there is some recency bias in what he's saying, but it's a legitimate point of view.

The counterargument would be, are these ancillary pieces and future assets worth enough to help the team get to a place better than where they currently are today through organic growth alone? I.e., as Lowry ages and begins to decline, will the maturation of Ross, Poetl, Val, Norm, 1st round picks, actually help the team actually be better than they are today with peak Lowry?

Or are we better off making a move and taking a shot now, and if we miss, blowing it all up and starting over, rather than starting a long slow bleed into irrelevance as our core ages and gets worse (think Memphis and Atlanta as examples of this as the team peaked around the same level and slowly began to decline as its core players got worse)?

Often the best trade a team can make is no trade at all.

[LonZoBallin]

I'd do Cojo for Noel and then lowball noel. If he signs a huge offer sheet then let him walk and you lose Cojo's 7 million.

its a way of freeing a little space but possiblity gaining a great asset if you can get Noel to sign a cheap contract. Even if Noel just takes the qualifying offer, I'd say that's a win. lose money else where and let Noel try to beast for a contract that someone else will give him.

[The Duke]

Unless Sullinger, comes in and is a complete beast .... from the get go... this team most likely scenario was that it was going to inferior to last years team. Depth Depth .... what truly matters in competing in the EFC/Finals, is your starters and maybe 2 bench players, 7 guys playing heavy minutes. When you have JV and Carroll playing heavy minutes, its just unlikely to go extremely far.

BB was a significant lost to this team, and unless we get a cake deal with with giving up assets for a very good talent we should not trade. If we can get Thabo cheap, I still make that trade.

[Sherlock]

He's saying Raps have too many holes and mortgaging young assets or the future to go all in in the near-term would be a mistake.

Clearly there is some recency bias in what he's saying, but it's a legitimate point of view.

The counterargument would be, are these ancillary pieces and future assets worth enough to help the team get to a place better than where they currently are today through organic growth alone? I.e., as Lowry ages and begins to decline, will the maturation of Ross, Poetl, Val, Norm, 1st round picks, actually help the team actually be better than they are today with peak Lowry?

Or are we better off making a move and taking a shot now, and if we miss, blowing it all up and starting over, rather than starting a long slow bleed into irrelevance as our core ages and gets worse (think Memphis and Atlanta as examples of this as the team peaked around the same level and slowly began to decline as its core players got worse)?

Often the best trade a team can make is no trade at all.

Agreed. The Lowry to the Knicks trade that never happened underscores your point.

But again, I raise my question -- if you were GM of the Grizzlies in 2013, would you rather have tried to consolidate your assets to make a hard push or simply roll with the team as is and hope for the best as they ultimately ended up doing. They're still a ~50-win team now, but trending in the wrong direction with an aging and capped out roster...

You have them mixed up - Lowry is the Dirk player, while DD is the Finlay type. I wasn't talking about positions, so let's not get into "who is Kidd or who is Chandler?" but look at the way they were built in terms of trying to compete year in, year out even when there was a bohemoth on front of them. Dirk was 33 or 34 when they won the title IIRC, and his numbers were already declining at this point and he was even out with an injury for part of the season. The previous year they added guys like Caron Butler and Shawn Marion, while the title year they added Tyson Chandler - all guys with around 10 years experience at that point. I guess that sort of describes Paul Millsap, but what I was trying to convey is that the timing was right for the Mavs to make their push and exploit the changes in the NBA landscape - changes that will be happening in 2 or 3 years from now if we are trying to do the same.

Fair enough, you can make that argument. But Dirk was a superstar level talent, 12-time all-NBA (including 4x 1st team all-NBA) and a first ballot HOFer. As much as I love Lowry, it's hard for me to see him at that level, ever.

That's why I keep referencing Memphis. Lowry and DeRozan are more in that Gasol/Randolph/Conley tier of player. Not the Dirk realm.

Let me ask my question again, in hindsight, shouldn't Memphis have made an all-in move 3-4 years ago and tried to sneak in a championship during the period of Heat/Spurs dominance? Because given where Gasol, Randolph and even Conley are in their careers right now, it's definitely too late for them to try to do anything now. As it stands, that team will slowly fade away to irrelevance over the coming years and still have to go through a painful re-build.

Now, I can see why Memphis wouldn't want to do it, as in a small market with ownership with shallow pockets, it's hard to financially keep a tax-level superteam together or to sustain a rebuild, but Toronto has shown they can make money while they suck on the court. So even if the shot fails and you have to totally re-build in a couple of years, isn't that still worth it for having had the chance to really go as far as possible?

Also, in 2-3 years when the Cavs and Warriors have slipped off the top perch, we're just as likely to be talking about Minnesota is the next superteam to worry about with their 3-headed monster of KAT/Levine/Wiggins tearing up the league.

Yes. Memphis probably should have tried to push all in. But, they were closer than we are - their defense was championship calibre and they were stacking up 50+ win seasons in a stacked West. We're quite good - but we've also taken advantage of a weak conference and an ultra weak division. As good as we are - we aren't as close as it seems. They also erred in overpaying their highest usage leading score - but they did so at a time when it was even more difficult to move that deal than today. They then made the right move in unloading that high usage leading scorer who wasn't really helping them (ahem) - but they didn't get back parts that could help them get to the next level. They needed shooters - they got Prince and Ed Davis.

It's true that in 3 years there will be new powers to contend with - but it's a matter of degree. GSW won 73 games and added Durant - Cleveland have a guy making a 3-4 year push to go down as the GOAT. If it doesn't go well for him - he'll likely settle for 2nd GOAT. He's been to the Finals 6 straight times and is a near lock to make it 7 (and likely 8 for that matter). As good as the teams of the near future will be - they aren't likely to be that good. If there's a 74 win team AND a guy better than LeBron in 4 years - well you tip your hat and start planning for 2025.

Very good counterpoint. You're probably right that the confluence of superstars signed to deals on the old cap (e.g., Steph) plus the rapid rise in the cap due to the TV contracts has created a crazy talent consolidation that is unlikely to be seen again for a long time.

[faitaccompli]

Even with hindsight, it's hard to say what the best decision for the 2013 Grizzlies would have been. My main reason for that is I don't know what their salary cap was or how much money ownership was willing to spend.

All things considered - they did pretty well surviving the annual gauntlet / dogfight / royal rumble between the Spurs, Thunder and Clippers.

To answer the question at hand: I don't think the Raptors are one player away from competing with either Cleveland and Golden State. Ironically, getting Kyle Korver might have been a good low price gamble. He certainly wouldn't help the defense, but there's a value - in some situations - in having another three point shooter out there to spread the floor.

[Courtside]

If you look at what the Grizzlies got for Rudy Gay, vs what we got for Rudy Gay, it would appear they made a bad deal. Maybe they could have flipped one or two of the 3 guys they got rather than try to use them, but we got a lot more out of Patterson than they did out of any of the three, plus we used Salmons, Acy, Vasquez into better contributors or prospects. Maybe Memphis gets over the hump with a slightly better deal or follow up deal, but they were basically "dumping" their inefficient wing, as opposed to dealing from strength, which is what we'll be doing once we pass the trade deadline in the 2nd year of DDs new deal. It will be OK for a year plus in terms of being a tradable deal, after that I think it becomes a depreciating asset. Lowry too, except his level of contribution to wins is so much higher that I think we keep him at least 3 years of his deal and then figure out about the last 2 years.

[djsunyc]

not good enough to beat cavs or warriors.

now, to make it back to the ecf's, it comes down to 2 things - lowry and dd. if they can play close to regular season levels, we can find ourselves back against the cavs. if they play like they usually do in the playoffs, then we can get eliminated by anybody.

[vini_vidi_vici]

Unless Sullinger, comes in and is a complete beast .... from the get go... this team most likely scenario was that it was going to inferior to last years team. Depth Depth .... what truly matters in competing in the EFC/Finals, is your starters and maybe 2 bench players, 7 guys playing heavy minutes. When you have JV and Carroll playing heavy minutes, its just unlikely to go extremely far.

BB was a significant lost to this team, and unless we get a cake deal with with giving up assets for a very good talent we should not trade. If we can get Thabo cheap, I still make that trade.

I dont disagree with the overall premise but..

Outside of players on CLE, DMC is the only guy in the East to go to b2b ECFs.

I dont understand it when ppl say, you cant win _______ (in the POs/championships/etc..) with ________ (insert player).

You can win a championship with anyone on your team given the proper roster construct/insulation/etc..

[wow09]

Sid has become insufferable

[RED ONE]

Masai better hope and pray that Kyle Lowry doesn't regress after getting his big contract this off season. Also, if this team gets bounced in the first round, there is good chance Lowry signs somewhere else. Masai needs to pull the trigger on a trade this season to get Millsap, and I don't care what ROLE PLAYER he has to give up. The truth is Ross is still weak and inconsistent, Powell is overrated, Bebe is just soft, Patterson's only offense is shooting three pointers, Cojo's defense has fallen off this season, and JV is too slow. Is this the future Masai is to scared to part with, or is it the rookie who just fell out of the starting spot in Siakim. Is it the top 10 pick who never gets any minutes. What assets on this team are so great that would make you not want to part with them for an ALL STAR pf?

All these teams are scared ****less of Cleveland. NBA is such a joke.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Yeah, but if you take the guys you where going to trade to Atl and dump them for picks/expiring contracts...you get the guy you want and maybe some good assets comming back from those trades.

Dealing with Atl is optional if it's under 5 yrs.

You show me the math on where we are with the cap holds, who we can trade away, and what offer we can make and explain why that risk is better than trading now, and I may be able to see where you are coming from. but I don't now, and I don't think you've looked into it hard enough.

He hasn't.

This is all readily available on-line if anyone cares to search. Updated as of Jan 3rd, 2017.

http://www.raptorshq.com/2017/1/3/14150168/salary-cap-update-summer-2017-under-the-new-cba-raptors

Assuming no trades are made this season, here is the salary cap situation for next summer. This assumes Lowry will opt out of his contract, which he certainly will.

DeMar DeRozan $27,739,975
Jonas Valanciunas $15,460,675
DeMarre Carroll $14,800,000
Terrence Ross $10,500,000
Cory Joseph $7,630,000
Lucas Nogueira $3,389,401
Jakob Poeltl $3,249,486
Bruno Caboclo $2,818,909
Delon Wright $1,891,980
Pascal Siakam $1,437,408
Norman Powell $1,471,382
Fred VanVleet $1,312,611

Total salary: $91,701,826
Projected salary cap: $103,000,000
Projected tax threshold: $122,000,000

That leaves about $11 million in cap room, assuming none of the Raptors’ free agents are kept. Which would be silly, so let’s look at them.

These are the cap holds for the various free agents the Raptors can try to bring back, and their first round draft picks.

Kyle Lowry $18,000,000
Patrick Patterson $11,495,000
Jared Sullinger $6,753,600
Clippers' Pick 2017 (25th) $1,516,206
Raptors' Pick 2017 (26th) $1,465,974

Lowry and Patterson both have full Bird Rights with the Raptors, so can be signed above the cap for up to 5-year deals for their maximum salary. Sullinger has only non-Bird Rights, and can get a 4-year deal with a starting salary 20 percent above his current one (the value of his cap hold above, about $6.7 million). That will likely not be nearly enough, if he plays well when he returns, so we’ll leave him aside for now.

In any case, including those cap holds puts the Raptors well above the cap — even keeping just Lowry’s means they have no cap space, so free agency is basically a wash next summer, barring any big salary clearing moves.

This whole idea being espoused that we can clear enough salary to just sign Millsap as a FA using cap space is crazy. There's no way I can see that working out unless the team was somehow able/willing to trade away Carroll, Valanciunas and CoJo for just cap space. Then you'd have ~$54MM in committed salaries plus Lowry's cap hold of $18MM + 2 picks @ $3MM combined = $75MM of salary leaving about $28MM of cap space. Which means you could potentially make an offer to Millsap, but not as big of one as whatever team held his Bird rights.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, to make that happen, we'd have to renounce our rights to Patterson too.

So rather than trade for Millsap with assets and stay above the cap, we'd rather effectively lose Patterson, Ross, Valanciunas and Carroll to be able to create enough space to *potentially* sign Millsap as an FA.

This is just a stupid path. If we want Millsap for the longer term, the only sensible thing to do is trade for him and then ultimately re-sign him using Bird rights.

We clear 23 mil if we move Cory/Val for expirings/picks.

If we're going for Milsap, Patterson would likely be gone in FA at that point (likely 5yrs and toxic). That means a big TPE at worst comming back (doesn't count against the lux). That we can then use to add depth.

Patterson will likely get way more than Biz. He also can't afford to take less, like Biz.

The question isn't if they go over, it's by how much and with whom.

[sule]

I think Raps end up standing largely still at the deadline. Masai is likely to assess this team's playoff performance and determine if the last year was a fluke or if they really made the jump, and that will determine his offseason. If Raps don't make it past the first round, then big changes come. If Raps make it back to the ECF, then smaller moves to strengthen our weaknesses without affecting our strengths will be made.

The truth is that we don't know if we are contender until we can prove we can consistently perform when it counts most. Right now, our biggest losses are coming against top teams. Sure, the schedule was messed up and most our losses have come during the two periods surrounding west coast trips, but a contending team should be able to hash out a win or two against the best teams in the league. If we're losing to all of them consistently and without prejudice, then it stands to reason we are not in their tier and need to make changes.

That's why, again, we'll have to assess what our true weaknesses are in the playoffs, IMO. Players who were performing well, went away, and players who were counted out came out to perform. If this team wants to make it far in the playoffs and eventually win that elusive championship, it's the playoff performers we need to keep for the future so we can build off our playoff successes, since we already know finishing 2nd or 3rd in the conference can still mean us getting easily swept.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

You show me the math on where we are with the cap holds, who we can trade away, and what offer we can make and explain why that risk is better than trading now, and I may be able to see where you are coming from. but I don't now, and I don't think you've looked into it hard enough.

He hasn't.

This is all readily available on-line if anyone cares to search. Updated as of Jan 3rd, 2017.

http://www.raptorshq.com/2017/1/3/14150168/salary-cap-update-summer-2017-under-the-new-cba-raptors

Assuming no trades are made this season, here is the salary cap situation for next summer. This assumes Lowry will opt out of his contract, which he certainly will.

DeMar DeRozan $27,739,975
Jonas Valanciunas $15,460,675
DeMarre Carroll $14,800,000
Terrence Ross $10,500,000
Cory Joseph $7,630,000
Lucas Nogueira $3,389,401
Jakob Poeltl $3,249,486
Bruno Caboclo $2,818,909
Delon Wright $1,891,980
Pascal Siakam $1,437,408
Norman Powell $1,471,382
Fred VanVleet $1,312,611

Total salary: $91,701,826
Projected salary cap: $103,000,000
Projected tax threshold: $122,000,000

That leaves about $11 million in cap room, assuming none of the Raptors’ free agents are kept. Which would be silly, so let’s look at them.

These are the cap holds for the various free agents the Raptors can try to bring back, and their first round draft picks.

Kyle Lowry $18,000,000
Patrick Patterson $11,495,000
Jared Sullinger $6,753,600
Clippers' Pick 2017 (25th) $1,516,206
Raptors' Pick 2017 (26th) $1,465,974

Lowry and Patterson both have full Bird Rights with the Raptors, so can be signed above the cap for up to 5-year deals for their maximum salary. Sullinger has only non-Bird Rights, and can get a 4-year deal with a starting salary 20 percent above his current one (the value of his cap hold above, about $6.7 million). That will likely not be nearly enough, if he plays well when he returns, so we’ll leave him aside for now.

In any case, including those cap holds puts the Raptors well above the cap — even keeping just Lowry’s means they have no cap space, so free agency is basically a wash next summer, barring any big salary clearing moves.

This whole idea being espoused that we can clear enough salary to just sign Millsap as a FA using cap space is crazy. There's no way I can see that working out unless the team was somehow able/willing to trade away Carroll, Valanciunas and CoJo for just cap space. Then you'd have ~$54MM in committed salaries plus Lowry's cap hold of $18MM + 2 picks @ $3MM combined = $75MM of salary leaving about $28MM of cap space. Which means you could potentially make an offer to Millsap, but not as big of one as whatever team held his Bird rights.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, to make that happen, we'd have to renounce our rights to Patterson too.

So rather than trade for Millsap with assets and stay above the cap, we'd rather effectively lose Patterson, Ross, Valanciunas and Carroll to be able to create enough space to *potentially* sign Millsap as an FA.

This is just a stupid path. If we want Millsap for the longer term, the only sensible thing to do is trade for him and then ultimately re-sign him using Bird rights.

We clear 23 mil if we move Cory/Val for expirings/picks.

If we're going for Milsap, Patterson would likely be gone in FA at that point (likely 5yrs and toxic). That means a big TPE at worst comming back (doesn't count against the lux). That we can then use to add depth.

Patterson will get way more than Biz. He also can't afford to take less, like Biz.

The question isn't if they go over, it's by how much and with whom.

No. Unless we renounce Kyle and we are over the cap with just his caphold alone by 7 million. So you clear 21 you actually make only 14 in space. TPE is not capspace and the salary will count on tax when used. You keep mentioning expirings, that makes no sense to me. You meaan go and trade them before the deadline for expirings and go into the playoff without them?

How would any of this be better than just trading and getting the bird rights?

I think maybe people are just having a hard time accepting the lack of financial flexibility we find ourselves with, because they've been lead to believe that by being patient we've preserved it, but thats not the case.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

He hasn't.

This is all readily available on-line if anyone cares to search. Updated as of Jan 3rd, 2017.

http://www.raptorshq.com/2017/1/3/14150168/salary-cap-update-summer-2017-under-the-new-cba-raptors



This whole idea being espoused that we can clear enough salary to just sign Millsap as a FA using cap space is crazy. There's no way I can see that working out unless the team was somehow able/willing to trade away Carroll, Valanciunas and CoJo for just cap space. Then you'd have ~$54MM in committed salaries plus Lowry's cap hold of $18MM + 2 picks @ $3MM combined = $75MM of salary leaving about $28MM of cap space. Which means you could potentially make an offer to Millsap, but not as big of one as whatever team held his Bird rights.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, to make that happen, we'd have to renounce our rights to Patterson too.

So rather than trade for Millsap with assets and stay above the cap, we'd rather effectively lose Patterson, Ross, Valanciunas and Carroll to be able to create enough space to *potentially* sign Millsap as an FA.

This is just a stupid path. If we want Millsap for the longer term, the only sensible thing to do is trade for him and then ultimately re-sign him using Bird rights.

We clear 23 mil if we move Cory/Val for expirings/picks.

If we're going for Milsap, Patterson would likely be gone in FA at that point (likely 5yrs and toxic). That means a big TPE at worst comming back (doesn't count against the lux). That we can then use to add depth.

Patterson will get way more than Biz. He also can't afford to take less, like Biz.

The question isn't if they go over, it's by how much and with whom.

No. Unless we renounce Kyle and we are over the cap with just his caphold alone by 7 million. So you clear 21 you actually make only 14 in space. TPE is not capspace and the salary will count on tax when used. You keep mentioning expirings, that makes no sense to me. You meaan go and trade them before the deadline for expirings and go into the playoff without them?

How would any of this be better than just trading and getting the bird rights?

I think maybe people are just having a hard time accepting the lack of financial flexibility we find ourselves with, because they've been lead to believe that by being patient we've preserved it, but thats not the case.

We're not over the cap, we wont be until we actually sign kyle...were still a mill short until then.

If we trade their contracts (Val/Cory for example), you trade their hold. We can renounce any expiring/UFA contracts we get back before we sign Kyle.

We don't have to renounce kyle, unless we go over before we sign him. Thus, you could make the moves and then sign him, he just has to come last.

[DJ_RnC]

Sid on #TeamNegative

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

We clear 23 mil if we move Cory/Val for expirings/picks.

If we're going for Milsap, Patterson would likely be gone in FA at that point (likely 5yrs and toxic). That means a big TPE at worst comming back (doesn't count against the lux). That we can then use to add depth.

Patterson will get way more than Biz. He also can't afford to take less, like Biz.

The question isn't if they go over, it's by how much and with whom.

No. Unless we renounce Kyle and we are over the cap with just his caphold alone by 7 million. So you clear 21 you actually make only 14 in space. TPE is not capspace and the salary will count on tax when used. You keep mentioning expirings, that makes no sense to me. You meaan go and trade them before the deadline for expirings and go into the playoff without them?

How would any of this be better than just trading and getting the bird rights?

I think maybe people are just having a hard time accepting the lack of financial flexibility we find ourselves with, because they've been lead to believe that by being patient we've preserved it, but thats not the case.

We're not over the cap, we wont be until we actually sign kyle...were still a mill short until then.

If we trade their contracts (Val/Cory for example), you trade their hold. We can renounce any expiring/UFA contracts we get back before we sign Kyle.

We don't have to renounce kyle, unless we go over before we sign him. Thus, you could make the moves and then sign him, he just has to come last.

No we are over the cap with his caphold unless we renounce him.

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