Guard Play is bringing us down

[Big Shot]

I'm not saying if the system changes Jose can all of a sudden be a good defensive guard. All I'm saying Jose is what he is. You don't expect him to contain Billups, and I don't think many guards in the League can do that either.

In general, Raps do tend to collapse to the middle too often. Don't you agree? Isn't too much to blame Jose for losing to one of the top teams in the league?

[jaketherap]

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Possibly, and one of the main thrusts of my topic is to counteract all the crap I keep seeing that it's all AB's or CB4's or even Sam's fault.

Our guards were absolutely atrocious last night, and they are seem to be getting a free pass.

And the thing that really irritates me, and I am falling into the TJ vs JC thing, is that TJ never, ever gets a free pass, even when he plays well.

Let's not get into the TJ and JC thing.

I see your points and somewhat agree. What we have in the Raps, in my opinion, is a slightly better than average team that has a long way to go before becoming an elite team.

What used to frustrate me reading so many threads here is emotional yo-yo after every game. I have to keep reminding myself that this team hasn't finished the rebuilding process that began when Colangelo came to town. Once the pieces are in place, and I'm not convinced they are all in place yet, it will still take time.

[dagger]

That is also why I believe that, long-term, Jose cannot be the starting point guard for this team. For another team? Absolutely. But this team needs a point guard that puts pressure on the defense and Calderon just does not do that.

That would be true if you believe everything else will be status quo in the long term. But I don't expect our team 2-3 years from now to be status quo.

[KG1585]

Our guards were absolutely atrocious last night, and they are seem to be getting a free pass.

And the thing that really irritates me, and I am falling into the TJ vs JC thing, is that TJ never, ever gets a free pass, even when he plays well.

Just because TJ was being called out unjustifiably that makes it ok for Jose. I don't know what game you were watching yesterday, but Jose played OK. Is he a good defender, no. But a lot of the time he gets burned is because he is the one that goes down to double. Why do you think the Raps are one of the worst teams in defending the three. I think it is because of the system. Roy was lighting the Raps up from three, Sam asked Jose to just stay on Roy, how man threes did Roy get after that.

Also when the TJ was there, Raps didn't run a lot either. They are more of a halfcourt team this year. Even with one of our best players out, they are top 15 in efficency. Can the guards play better, yes, but AP and Jose have been one of our best players the last week.

[dacrusha]

Our guards were absolutely atrocious last night, and they are seem to be getting a free pass.

And the thing that really irritates me, and I am falling into the TJ vs JC thing, is that TJ never, ever gets a free pass, even when he plays well.

Just because TJ was being called out unjustifiably that makes it ok for Jose. I don't know what game you were watching yesterday, but Jose played OK. Is he a good defender, no. But a lot of the time he gets burned is because he is the one that goes down to double. Why do you think the Raps are one of the worst teams in defending the three. I think it is because of the system. Roy was lighting the Raps up from three, Sam asked Jose to just stay on Roy, how man threes did Roy get after that.

Also when the TJ was there, Raps didn't run a lot either. They are more of a halfcourt team this year. Even with one of our best players out, they are top 15 in efficency. Can the guards play better, yes, but AP and Jose have been one of our best players the last week.

Blaming the system on Jose's defensive shortcomings is weak.

One-on-one, Jose has been horrible all year... Roy blew by him over and over again, so much so that Sam had to bring AP over to help cover him. Even then, Roy STILL hit a 3 pointer to tie the game in OT with Jose trying to cover him man-to-man.

The two games vs. the Pistons were a joke with Billups continually abusing Jose and opening everyone else up for easy shots.

Jose has been playing very well on offense, but the excuses for his poor defensive play are reaching Bargs apoligist levels.

[Shaazzam]

Before TJ was injured, the Jose haters never gave Jose a free pass either. They just aren't gonna jump up and scream at how BAD Jose's been playing because "their guy" is out with an injury and could possibly not play again.

All I have seen on this board is that AB7 is garbage and CB4 is a pussy and we can't rebound. That to me is giving JC a free pass. I have very rarely seen Jose get any flack on this board at all, Game 6's pass aside.

What I have been adamant about in how he cannot break down defences without the use of a screen and he cannot guard his own position. But he's supposed to get signed for 9 million next season? (this point not directed at you personally)

I'm not saying if the system changes Jose can all of a sudden be a good defensive guard. All I'm saying Jose is what he is. You don't expect him to contain Billups, and I don't think many guards in the League can do that either.

In general, Raps do tend to collapse to the middle too often. Don't you agree? Isn't too much to blame Jose for losing to one of the top teams in the league?

I don't expect him to contain Billups, but he can't contain any semi decent PG in the L. And I have agreed that the Raptors collapse too much, and the reason for that is because they cannot contain the perimeter. Jose cannot get over screens, he cannot guard his man straight up and he can be slow in recovering to shooters.

[El Presidente]

Fact is that we cannot beat Detroit or any other elite team if we are not full strength. We're just getting by without TJ and Garbo, but we need those two to be serious playoff contenders.

If by beating you them you mean beating them in a 7-game series, then having TJ and Garbo doesn't matter. We'd win maybe 1 game in that series even if we were at full strength. Sure, TJ might get hot and Hamilton might have a bad game and we might sneak out a win in the regular season but that wouldn't prove a damn thing.

I think we're more than just TJ and Garbo away from being "serious playoff contenders". Defensive rebounding, perimeter defense and lack of a second scorer prevents us from being anything but playoff fodder.

[Northern_Raptor]

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If by beating you them you mean beating them in a 7-game series, then having TJ and Garbo doesn't matter. We'd win maybe 1 game in that series even if we were at full strength. Sure, TJ might get hot and Hamilton might have a bad game and we might sneak out a win in the regular season but that wouldn't prove a damn thing.

I think we're more than just TJ and Garbo away from being "serious playoff contenders". Defensive rebounding, perimeter defense and lack of a second scorer prevents us from being anything but playoff fodder.

You think we're more than TJ and Garbo away from being contenders, yet, your reasons are defensive rebounding, perimeter defence and second scorer? hmm, I am pretty sure that is exactly what TJ and Garbo bring, even if it isn't from the traditional 2 spot.

[KG1585]

Blaming the system on Jose's defensive shortcomings is weak.

One-on-one, Jose has been horrible all year... Roy blew by him over and over again, so much so that Sam had to bring AP over to help cover him. Even then, Roy STILL hit a 3 pointer to tie the game in OT with Jose trying to cover him man-to-man.

Jose is a horrible man defender, but i think, leaving the shooters open is a whole different story. The Raps will double anyone in the post leaving shooters open. Getting abused by Billups is nothing new, he abuses the best defenders in the league.

The Roy three was a fadeway from 25 feet out, he just made a tough shot.
Roy took Jose to the post, but he didn't get any threes, because Jose stayed with him and didn't help.

[supersub15]

Obviously, Jose does not have the foot speed to stay with the faster PGs in the league nor the strength to stop Billups from posting him up, and that was evident in the first game against Detroit.

But, to put the blame for the losses on Jose is just ridiculous. I will repeat one more time how Sam's system works: Sam likes to send his PG down to double up on the post player. It's been like this since the Rafer days. And that was the reason Sam got into it with Rafer (who thought the system made him look bad).

Seriously, picking on the only 2 players (Jose and Bosh) on the team who are bringing it every game is just

Edited to add: Where are the posters who used to claim that Jose cannot beat the good teams? Haven't heard a peep about this lately...

[The_Original_Baller]

Jose: 3-7 FG 5 Ast 3 Reb 3 TO 8 Pts
AP: 5-11 FG 0 Ast 3 Reb 2 TO 10 Pts

Billups: 5-9 FG 4 Ast 3 Reb 2 TO 20 Pts
Rip: 16-22 F 6 Ast 4 Reb 0 TO 39 Pts

People can crap all over our bigs but I feel a major item is getting overlooked. And It's the type of thing that bugs me in the whole TJ vs Jose thing. Jose was atrocious last night, and he gets a free pass. He couldn't initiate anything offensively and got abused by Billups, but he's supposed to sign somewhere for 9 million next season. Now we can chalk it up as a bad matchup, or heavy minutes against POR, and continue to throw AB under the bus. Or we can accept the fact that this team either needs TJ back badly or we need to upgrade the 2.

Unless we get a top tier 2 for Jose. he will lead us to nothing more then mediocrity. He is dynamic enough offensively and cannot guard his own position. Now I love the guy and I feel bad typing this about him, but the amount of flack our bigs are getting is unwarranted and small minded. These guys don't control the ball, they aren't supposed to initiate the offence, they aren't at the point of attack defensively.

I love AP, but the guy has lost a step this year and cannot break down defenses. He can hit seams and lanes that are already there, but he can't break anyone down.

Yes items like rebounding are a major issue, and you ahve to play with the personnel that you have. But I think we have some of the weakest guard play around with TJ out. Our 2's are support players at best and Jose is not equipped to play major minutes against the best teams night in and night out. He can't play good enough defence and he can't break teams down without the benefit of a screen and/or a defensive miscue.

TJ I hope you come back soon man and restore some balance to the lineup, because without you we don't have enough pure talent to beat the best teams. We try to out execute them and sometimes we are able to, but we can't beat them on raw talent.

Thoughts?

We need TJ back AND we a better SG to have a shot of winning a championship. Parker isn't a championship level SG.

[Pchu]

Couple of things here:

For people blaming Jose for the loss, it's pretty ridculous. Yes, he will never be a defensive minded PG. But also remember that Billups is doing this pretty much every team. He is one of the best PG right now, and he is great at defense as well. How many other PG can you name who is playing at that level right now on both sides on the floor?

As for Parker, he is a short term fix. Colangelo signs him not for the future, but to basically be a glue guy for now. Hence the short contract.

Be Patient, Simmons is right, alot of you guys are nuts.

[Tha Cynic]

I've felt this from the beginning but everyone's been gushing over Calderon's stats including the American media who doesn't actually watch our team play. If you watch how we play this year, and how we played last year offensively, it's a night and day difference. Our offense was so explosive last year. You had fans out of their seats constantly. The ACC was rocking. This season has been a huge disappointment. We've become almost as boring as the Spurs to watch. A big part of that is that we're missing TJ. We don't have the players to play like the Spurs.

Of course Bosh is putting up better stats, but that's because that's really the only play we can go to with Calderon on the floor. He has no creativity. He'll dribble the ball on the perimeter, passes it around a few times, then goes to Bosh with under 10 seconds left on the clock. That's our offense. Every single game seems to be like a grind it out type of game. This is not how we played last year.

If you add this team's defense to the offense we had last year, we should be a much better team, but losing TJ was a huge blow for us. We have yet to see a healthy Bosh and TJ play together, and I have no doubt when the two are together again, we'll become a much more dangerous team.

I really thought these past couple of months would have made people realize just how pathetic our offense is without TJ in there, but I've seen no posts about it. This just goes to show, there really never were any Jose haters to begin with. It was all a myth. For whatever reason, we have some fanboys who love to come on and absolutely abuse TJ after every game for no apparent reason. Guess what, Jose puts up great stats, but really doesn't make this team better. Right now we're just floating around 0.500 and he's dong what a backup is supposed to do until the real engine of our team returns. For that Jose's been doing a great job. Anyone who has watched Jose consistently knows he doesn't deserve anywhere near the money that people are throwing out there now.

[C.Boshly]

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We need TJ back AND we a better SG to have a shot of winning a championship. Parker isn't a championship level SG.

I disagree I could definately see Parker starting on a championship team. He is an excellent shooter, is long and gets into passing lanes.

He is in the mold of a Bruce Bowen type role player. He is a better shooter but is not the elite defender Bruce is.

[Northern_Raptor]

Tha Cynic - Well done. I agree with everything you said.

[supersub15]

Of course Bosh is putting up better stats, but that's because that's really the only play we can go to with Calderon on the floor. He has no creativity. He'll dribble the ball on the perimeter, passes it around a few times, then goes to Bosh with under 10 seconds left on the clock. That's our offense. Every single game seems to be like a grind it out type of game. This is not how we played last year.

But I thought that Jose is averaging 10 assists per game as a starter? It could that Bosh is sinking only Jose's passes.

[The_Original_Baller]

BC

[Tha Cynic]

But I thought that Jose is averaging 10 assists per game as a starter? It could that Bosh is sinking only Jose's passes.

Yes, I was overexagetting. In general Jose's offense consists of overdribbling, passing the ball around the perimeter and finding someone for a perimeter shot, or throwing it in to Bosh when the shot clock winds down. It's no wonder this offense has been pathetic. We're just lucky we have the amount of jumpshooters we do, or this offense would be even worse.

[The_Original_Baller]

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But I thought that Jose is averaging 10 assists per game as a starter? It could that Bosh is sinking only Jose's passes.

You CANNOT compare Bosh now to the Bosh that started the season. Bosh just finished averaging 30+ points last week. When the season started he was playing so poorly everyone was questioning if he even was a franchise player. Jose's assists has everything to do with Bosh playing better and nothing to do with Jose helping Bosh to improve his game in some way. Bosh is getting the same passes now as he was in the start of the season and even last year. It's just now Bosh is healthy and he put his game back together and now he's in the swing of things and when Bosh is playing well the team does better.

[Shaazzam]

I really thought these past couple of months would have made people realize just how pathetic our offense is without TJ in there, but I've seen no posts about it. This just goes to show, there really never were any Jose haters to begin with. It was all a myth. For whatever reason, we have some fanboys who love to come on and absolutely abuse TJ after every game for no apparent reason. Guess what, Jose puts up great stats, but really doesn't make this team better. Right now we're just floating around 0.500 and he's dong what a backup is supposed to do until the real engine of our team returns. For that Jose's been doing a great job. Anyone who has watched Jose consistently knows he doesn't deserve anywhere near the money that people are throwing out there now.

Well said.

I love Jose, I love what he brings but I have always felt that he is at his best coming off the bench, playing a million miles an hour, and being a bonafide weapon.

He doesn't have the defence to be a lead, system-type PG. His shot is getting there and he can hit big ones, he can run your sets, but he can't break first string defenders down.

He can play decently on defence against other bench PG's and his efficiency allows us to punish the mediocre teams in the league because they will make so many mistakes, and his steady, freddy style works because he won't beat himself. But against the top teams, we need to be more dynamic. Because they will rarely beat themselves.