Guard Play is bringing us down

[Pchu]

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Yes, I was overexagetting. In general Jose's offense consists of overdribbling, passing the ball around the perimeter and finding someone for a perimeter shot, or throwing it in to Bosh when the shot clock winds down. It's no wonder this offense has been pathetic. We're just lucky we have the amount of jumpshooters we do, or this offense would be even worse.

Our offense is pathetic? We are in the middle of the pack in offensive efficiency. Our pace has slow down, but that doesn't mean we are a bad offensive team.

This is a jump shooting, it was designed that way. No one (with the exception to Bosh) can consistently create off the dribble and drive to the basket. Calderon is just playing to this team's strength. He is finding open man, and getting the ball to their favorite spot. Isn't that good enough?

Sure we miss TJ, I miss his contribution on the court, I especially miss him when I see Martin/Dixon playing, but Jose has been very good to us. It's silly to slam him when he is the 2nd best player on this team right now.

[PrinceV]

I don't think Jose is a bad defender. He uses his hands alot and when he defends one on one, he tries to bring his oppenent to where there is help or force them base line.

The reason why it seems he's a bad defender is because teams know that we don't have inside pressence. Bosh is our only threat inside, hence the reason why we get killed with points in the paint.

Garbo is really missed, he does so many things on the floor that don't count on a stat sheet. What he does defensively are game breakers..IMO.

[the_real_deception]

i think more specifically its our guards inability to guard their own position. as much as we all love caledron- the dude couldn't keep my fat arse in front of him.

[Jimmy The Greek]

I think the major reason for our struggles is that we are a jump shooting team that doesn't hit their jumpers on a consistent basis.

Kapono was suppose to stretch the defense but can't create his own shot.

Delfino disappears for long stretches and for the life of me I have no idea why.

We have a 27 year old rookie in Moon as our starting small.

Bargs is still trying to learn how to play center and has had some major learning curves due to the fact that he's thinking too much about how to play that position instead of letting the game come to him.

Chris Bosh has just started looking good again due to his injuries and conditioning.

T.J. Ford is out which creates a major drop off on the second units' point play.

Dixon is trying to learn how to play point after only playing the 2.

Parker has looked good in the last games but was trying to learn how to create more opportunities and become a little more selfish due to Bargs in the starting line up.

Garbo's IQ and hustle is a major loss.

Nestorvic is playing great ball but can't run with this team and is not what we need to play the way we need.

Joey is Joey.

Hump looks great for a week and then gets way to confident and goes away from what made him great for a week.

Baston looks great in a suit but might have to check with the medical staff for a severe case butt splinters.

Jose Calderon is playing more then double his minutes and is the only great thing going for this team right now, him and Bosh are the only great things on this team right now. Imagine if we actually knocked down shots on a regular basis - how many assists would he have then? He is finally starting to drive to the basket last year, something he got away from earlier on in the season due to teams adjusting, but now he's adjusted and looks great.

Despite all that, we are still 2 games over .500 and have a lot of promise. Everyone needs to chill and relax, I'm sure BC has something up his sleeve to shake this team up.

Okay I'm done.

[sh00n]

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I disagree with this.

The problem now is that the Raptors have become a one-pace team. They tend to play well, but they tend not to push the ball to put pressure on the defense. That, if nothing else, is something that TJ brought that is missing right now.

That is also why I believe that, long-term, Jose cannot be the starting point guard for this team. For another team? Absolutely. But this team needs a point guard that puts pressure on the defense and Calderon just does not do that.

I'd also add that while Calderon CAN be a starter, he is actually probably better suited to be a backup playing significant minutes. The reason I say that is because his strengths - consistency, a good shot, few mistakes - are ideal for a backup point. And his weakness - a lack of aggressiveness and being unwilling to take chances - are problems for a starter.

Just so none of the Jose clones don't attack me - I am definitely NOT saying he isn't talented enough to be a starter.

Finally, something I can agree with when it comes to the whole TJ vs Jose deal. And that's why I can't understand why we absolutely have to trade one of them for. Each compliments the other beautifully and to be paying them both 8-9 mill each a year is worth it in my opinion. Their numbers and salaries would match up to pretty much what Nash does or better.

I'd say our biggest problems come from the 2. As much as I love AP, he doesn't bring everything we need. In hindsight, Travis Outlaw would've probably been the ideal signing this off-season for us. He can hit shots, rebounds and above all - slashes.

[Courtside Cynic]

Raps lose more often to teams that can shoot from the perimeter, because they tend to collapse too much to the middle on the defense. That's the defense system they have and don't seem to change accordingly.

On the offense, they also slow it down quite a bit even before TJ went down. At least that's what I noticed. So don't blame the players.

If there's anything wrong with that, it's on the coaching staff who put together the strategies.

I completely agree with this. Also, as people have mentioned, the raps double the post from the nearest point, one pass away, which is stupid for a couple of reasons.

First of all, why double if we dont need to? Bosh, Bargs and Rasho are all solid one-on-one defenders. If Sheed wants to take a 15ft fadeaway jumper then by all means let him do so. Don't double him just so that he can pass it out and then we're forced to play catch-up with perimeter passes.

Secondly, if we need to double, do so from the opposite side, as to force the most difficult pass for the post player.

I was amazed by Chauncey last night, where a couple of times he drove and our whole team collapsed only to find him pass out to a wide open Rip for a three. This is where he is head and shoulders above many other pg's. Other guards just wouldn't be able to see that.

[Shaazzam]

Sure we miss TJ, I miss his contribution on the court, I especially miss him when I see Martin/Dixon playing, but Jose has been very good to us. It's silly to slam him when he is the 2nd best player on this team right now.

Not trying to slam him, but when it comes to dealing with the entrenched views of many that Jose can do very little wrong sometimes you have to be a little more emphatic.

Your last sentence really goes to the main crux of how I feel.

Jose, to me, is our backup PG. Therefore he should be at most, our fourth best player. If you want to be an elite team you really need 3 studs. We have one playing, one hurt indefinitely, and that's about it. That's not a knock on him, but since him and TJ can't play together, you really don't want your third best guy coming off the bench and not being able to integrate with your other two studs (hence leave Manu out of this peeps).

[Pchu]

I just want to say this.

If blame is assigned, shouldn't Martin/Dixon be blamed more than Jose?

Martin was so ineffective that Mitchell has to play Jose for 50+ minutes on Sunday, because he has no confidence in Martin.

Dixon is sometimes even worse than Martin, if the defenders pressure him, he will turn the ball over. He is not a PG.

When they are playing as PG, the other team usually makes a run.

Shouldn't we look at help with that instead?

[Shaazzam]

Finally, something I can agree with when it comes to the whole TJ vs Jose deal. And that's why I can't understand why we absolutely have to trade one of them for. Each compliments the other beautifully and to be paying them both 8-9 mill each a year is worth it in my opinion. Their numbers and salaries would match up to pretty much what Nash does or better.

I'd say our biggest problems come from the 2. As much as I love AP, he doesn't bring everything we need. In hindsight, Travis Outlaw would've probably been the ideal signing this off-season for us. He can hit shots, rebounds and above all - slashes.

And I have never felt we need to lose one of them either. The two PG's together are unbelievable in so many ways.

I realize I may be doing a crappy thing in going after Jose to try and illustrate TJ's value, but we need stronger guard play, especially against the top teams in the league. TJ puts the hierarchy back the way it should be and he really allows us to balance the lineup we have.

I see a mention of Kapono not having an impact because he can't create his own shot. Well, who really though he could create his own shot? The guy is a jumpshooter, plain in simple, and these guys require someone to feed them the ball in good spots. Early TJ looked for him all the time, and he was able to suck the defence in and find Kapono open looks.

[Pchu]

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Not trying to slam him, but when it comes to dealing with the entrenched views of many that Jose can do very little wrong sometimes you have to be a little more emphatic.

Your last sentence really goes to the main crux of how I feel.

Jose, to me, is our backup PG. Therefore he should be at most, our fourth best player. If you want to be an elite team you really need 3 studs. We have one playing, one hurt indefinitely, and that's about it. That's not a knock on him, but since him and TJ can't play together, you really don't want your third best guy coming off the bench and not being able to integrate with your other two studs (hence leave Manu out of this peeps).

To me this team is not a finished product until 2009, when we have cap room to add that impact player. No one expects Jose to be this good (certainly not me), so it's a very pleasant surprise so far.

And it's not easy to add another huge impact player. Remember we won only 27 games 2 years ago. These things take time.

[Shaazzam]

I just want to say this.

If blame is assigned, shouldn't Martin/Dixon be blamed more than Jose?

Martin was so ineffective that Mitchell has to play Jose for 50+ minutes on Sunday, because he has no confidence in Martin.

Dixon is sometimes even worse than Martin, if the defenders pressure him, he will turn the ball over. He is not a PG.

When they are playing as PG, the other team usually makes a run.

Shouldn't we look at help with that instead?

That's why the title of the thread is Guard play is bringing us down, not Jose is bringing us down.

It's obvious the issues those two jokers cause.

To me this team is not a finished product until 2009, when we have cap room to add that impact player. No one expects Jose to be this good (certainly not me), so it's a very pleasant surprise so far.

And it's not easy to add another huge impact player. Remember we won only 27 games 2 years ago. These things take time.

Trust me dude, I'm the last guy you need to preach patience to. I have never considered this team a finished product.

But I started this thread in response to feeling that I was getting that CB4 and AB7 are the reasons why we struggle against top tier teams like Detroit.

[Pchu]

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That's why the title of the thread is Guard play is bringing us down, not Jose is bringing us down.

It's obvious the issues those two jokers cause.

But no one is really mentioning it in this thread, so instead they bash Jose.

Please DMart, be a man and retire. I really don't want to see you on court playing anymore.

[El Presidente]

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You think we're more than TJ and Garbo away from being contenders, yet, your reasons are defensive rebounding, perimeter defence and second scorer? hmm, I am pretty sure that is exactly what TJ and Garbo bring, even if it isn't from the traditional 2 spot.

Are you kidding me? We were only missing Garbo versus the Nets last year (who were missing Kristic) and we got beat fairly handily. Case closed.

[Shaazzam]

When is Dmarts contract guaranteed?

[Pchu]

When is Dmarts contract guaranteed?

I think it's already guaranteed. The reason is so they could use his salary in a trade.

That means we will continue to see him...argh....

[KJS1508]

I still think you guys would be serious contenders with a center like Dalembert. He is playing out of his mind lately, averaging 15.2 PPG, 13.6 RPG, and 2.4 BPG over his last five games. He is also the onlyEastern Conference center besides Howard to be averaging a double double.

I think that is the real need on the Raptors, a defensive minded center who can rebound the ball consistently and it will become more evident into the playoffs.

Would folks here consider trading Bargs for Dalembert. I would be very tempted if he was say three years younger.

[dagger]

i think more specifically its our guards inability to guard their own position. as much as we all love caledron- the dude couldn't keep my fat arse in front of him.

I wouldn't say that of just him, and I wouldn't expect things to be any better than Ford.

I re-watched last night's game on Game in an Hour, and the first four fouls our bigs took - both of Bargnani's and Bosh's first two - were the result of missed assignments on the perimetre by our guards and small forward. Moon, in particular, was jacked out of his jock on one play - he has to learn not to bite on the teensiest of fakes. The fault lies with all of our 1-2-3's. This problem was no different when TJ was the starter. And it's not because we're collapsing on our bigs. We just flat-out suck too often defending guards one on one, with the opponent right in front of our guy. We don't get up close to defend three point shooters, and laying off them doesn't stop the opponent from driving around them.

[supersub15]

The problem I have is not the criticism of Jose. Everybody has weaknesses. But to say that "Guard Play is bringing us down" is plain wrong, statistically, empirically and anything -ally you want.

How about we discuss our number 1 pick's contributions to our losses?

Why don't we all check who contributes the most to our wins and losses:
link

Win Shares
1. Jose Calderon +13
2. Chris Bosh +12
3. Anthony Parker +8

Were those our 2 starting guards and our franchise player?

Wait, there's more. Who's contributing the most to our losses:

Loss Shares
1. Andrea Bargnani -9
2. Jason Kapono -5
3. Jamario Moon -5
2.

[sh00n]

[quote="Shaazzam"][/quote]
Never said Kapono didn't have an impact, I love the signing. His team mates need to find him though. I just said maybe Outlaw should've been the guy we went after in hindsight, seeing how great he's been playing for Portland this year.

[Shaazzam]

The problem I have is not the criticism of Jose. Everybody has weaknesses. But to say that "Guard Play is bringing us down" is plain wrong, statistically, empirically and anything -ally you want.

How about we discuss our number 1 pick's contributions to our losses?

Why don't we all check who contributes the most to our wins and losses:
link

Win Shares
1. Jose Calderon +13
2. Chris Bosh +12
3. Anthony Parker +8

Were those our 2 starting guards and our franchise player?

Wait, there's more. Who's contributing the most to our losses:

Loss Shares
1. Andrea Bargnani -9
2. Jason Kapono -5
3. Jamario Moon -5
2.

Doh! Did you just call me out for a thread title? Sh*ts on now SS!
(Forgive me, the few threads I have generated never get any posts, and I'm blaming the title, not my content dammit )
Just playing man but can you explain that stat you are showing to me please?

But I stand by my assertion that against the elite, Jose's weaknesses become magnified because of his inability to break down defences and guard his own position.

I love Jose. I think he's a hell of a player. I think his efficiency allows us to punish teams that make lots of mistakes. He'll never make us beat ourselves, but I don't think he has what it takes to one be of the best players on the floor, playing lead guard minutes against the elite teams.

The reason for this is related to how I view the PG position in regards to team building. If I'm going to go with a PG oriented offence, I want a guy that can break defences down and cause havoc. He can be forgiven for some defensive inadequacies by putting a strong defender at the two who can stick shots.

If I'm looking for a system PG (who I think Jose's game as a lead guard is more suited to be, and with the calls for more sophistication rampant, looks like most of us agree on this) I want a big guard who is strong defender that can hit big shots. Guys like Ron Harper, Derek Fisher, come to mind. This guy has to be able to guard his own position.

The issue I see with Jose is that for the first instance, he can't break down defenses well enough on his own to fit there, and in the second he's not strong enough physically, or as a defender to fit. Regardless of how much people blame it on the fact that Jose can't double down and recover, he still can't guard his own position.

Shaazzam-ally, this will always be true!