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Bargnani discussion

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Post#181 » by tsherkin » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:15 pm

Duffman100 wrote:I honestly just don't see the point in sitting here and whining

"we made the wrong pick, he's a bust, he'll never be great, blah blah"


RealGM = discussion forum

This = discussion

[/response]


edit: Plus we aren't going to the finals anytime soon, so really..cmon...


Part of that is because we have Bargs at center instead of someone useful... Our offense isn't the problem and notably, the ONLY thing Bargs supporters have to say is that he could one day be a good scorer.

He is a craptacular rebounder of epic and terrible inadequacy and that's one of our areas of greatest weakness. Our interior defense is likewise a significant problem to which he brings no benefit.

So what point is there in "giving him time" if he's not even stylistically valuable at his projected peak value?
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Post#182 » by Duffman100 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:18 pm

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Part of that is because we have Bargs at center instead of someone useful... Our offense isn't the problem and notably, the ONLY thing Bargs supporters have to say is that he could one day be a good scorer.

He is a craptacular rebounder of epic and terrible inadequacy and that's one of our areas of greatest weakness. Our interior defense is likewise a significant problem to which he brings no benefit.

So what point is there in "giving him time" if he's not even stylistically valuable at his projected peak value?


You're telling me that if you replaced Bargnani with a random 10 rebound center, lets say he average 5 points. That we'd go to the finals? I think not my friend. We have a good team, not THAT good.
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Post#183 » by Duffman100 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:19 pm

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
RealGM = discussion forum

This = discussion

[/response]



I understand this is a discussion forum, but why not just sit around and complain about how we don't have Tmac and Vince. Cause we can change that too?
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Post#184 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:21 pm

Duffman100 wrote:Replace Durant with Andrea, and give him the same looks. He probably won't shoot quite as well, but when you shoot more, you tend to get out of shooting funks faster.

If I'm taking 20 shots a game, I'm probably going to start hitting more, rather than, if I'm taking 5 to 10 shots a game.


My head is spinning from all the crazy arguments. I think this is my last post in this thread.

(a) Shooting more doesn't mean you'll shoot a better percentage, it just means you have more chances to make one or two shots rather than going 0-for. It's a lot tougher to shoot a higher percentage when the defense knows your going to shoot everything than when you can pick your spots and play smart.

(b) Dirk and Okur play WAY more diversely on offense than Bargnani does and they're both way better defensively and solid rebounder. Andrea is nowhere close to Dirk or Okur at this point on either end of the court, let alone more traditional bigs.

(c) Andrea would get criticized as much were he the 4th or 5th pick but he'd still get criticized. Do you think Randy Foye was a good 7th pick despite the fact that he's putting up comparable numbers (relative position) to Andrea's this season? Pressure does come from being the first overall pick and you avoid those kinds of problems by getting one of the best players in the draft.

(d) Andrea isn't an outright bust. He still has a place in this league. Getting rid of him just for the sake of getting rid of him makes no sense at all, either, as he still has a place in the NBA and does have quite a bit of potential. He's definitely been a bust for a first overall pick, though, and if the opportunity came to trade him in a package for a proven star it's something that definitely would warrant consideration.
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Post#185 » by CreaM » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:50 pm

Shaazzam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



But if he isn't stomping people, but shows improvement will you be happy for at the time? Or is it a smash or be smashed situation?

It depend on how much improvement he shows.

1. Has to average at least 30 mpg, and that doesnt mean Mitchell just dishing out 30 minutes just for the sake of it, he has to earn it.

2. If given 30 minutes, has to average at least 7 boards.

3. Play within the flow of the offense.

4. Shoot a respectable field goal percentage of at least .450

5. Improve help defense thoroughly.

6. Couldn't care less how many points he scores as long as it is a respectable percentage and within the flow of the offense. In other words, no rushed shots.

7. Play like he CARES!!! dive for loose balls, e.t.c.
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Post#186 » by CreaM » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:53 pm

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Damn you! you're in a win/win situation. Either Bargs sucks and you win, or Bargs rocks and Raptors win.

How is it a win win situation for me? because I criticize him?
If he sucks, we ALL loose as Raptor fans. Not because he was the first overall pick, but because there were several ways to improve the team in that draft and BC took the wrong route.

People think I'm happy Bargs sucks?
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Post#187 » by Boogie! » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:53 pm

CreaM wrote:
7. Play like he CARES!!! dive for loose balls, e.t.c.


people keep saying things like this, but i don't understand where they're getting that he doesn't care. he's not gonna dive for loose balls because he can't. how often have you even seen him fall after taking contact? he's always trying to keep his balance. he's not that fluid and would probably seriously injure himself if he dove for a ball.
mdenny wrote:In anycase....Masai is probably gonna make Fred the first active player/head coach in franchise history now that Nurse is out of the way. That's been the plan all along.
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Post#188 » by CreaM » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:55 pm

Boogie! wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



people keep saying things like this, but i don't understand where they're getting that he doesn't care. he's not gonna dive for loose balls because he can't. how often have you even seen him fall after taking contact? he's always trying to keep his balance. he's not that fluid and would probably seriously injure himself if he dove for a ball.

Just like all the other 7footers that dive for loose balls?
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Post#189 » by Boogie! » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:59 pm

uh, sorry what does that have to do with what i wrote? and even if it did, what other 7 footers dive for loose balls?
mdenny wrote:In anycase....Masai is probably gonna make Fred the first active player/head coach in franchise history now that Nurse is out of the way. That's been the plan all along.
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Post#190 » by isyed » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:00 pm

I get mad when people keep saying that Bargs has that inner fire, that mental makeup..that..ITness to take it to the next level. I keep thinking he will overcome his weaknessess and become the player we want him to. i understand that he needs time. Funny thing is after last year's playoffs i wouldnt be surprised if he actually did something crazy like average 25ppg and rebound at 8 rb per game when it matters most. i know its asking for too much but the way he performed last year i think we will be very suprised this year as well. It wierd how i dissed people who say the same thing that makes me mad yet i said it myself...LOL

I don't know why but he to me is the X factor. If he shoots the ball at 60 % for 4 games in a series then we don't worry about his rebounding, defence, help defence or assists cause we are in the second round already.

I know this can be said for any player but with Andrea it almost seems like he's bored sometimes...which is a very bad knock on his game but still who cares if he sleeps through 82 games every year and wakes up for 20 in the playoffs and wins us the ship?
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Post#191 » by BigBob13 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:02 pm

Duffman100 wrote:Unbeliveable, honestly. Its like you guys haven't watch basketball before, and this 'divine' post by a moderator is absurd.

Sure, Bargnani struggled this year. Sure a lot of what he does is on the perimeter.

But wait? Isn't the NBA draft about potential? Sure it's a dangerous word, but isn't that the risk? You're drafting someone for what they could do years later.

If you're telling me, after watching Bargs for a year and a half, that he CAN'T develop into an impressive, multi tooled offensive player, then you're blind. Simple as that.

He's 21 you impatient fans. He's a project. Colangelo said so. Will he pan out? Who knows? I don't...but to say that he doesn't have the potential, doesn't have the ability, is absurd. The guy can play basketball, and now its just about developing.

This season, he has been taken in and out of the starting lineup. Not based on how he was playing (beginning of the season) but because Bosh couldn't adjust. He was injured (for the first time in his playing career), wearing a knee brace. He's playing the HARDEST position in basketball. PG is tough, but at least you have the ball in your hands all the time. Bargs gets no plays run for him, ever. Maybe thats why hes a scavenger for poitns.

Give this 21 year old a break. Not everyone is Lebron or Carmelo. Some guys actually need TIME to develop their game.


Everyone needs him to be good right here and right now, hence the discussion ad nauseum about how he's not a superstar. We're still winning games, we're still competing, we're STILL going along with the vision that BC had in mind. With that put, I don't care if he's not at Dirk status, I don't care if he's not at whoever status, I care about how he's going to be when this team goes on their run. If he's still at this point then this discussion will be valid but until then, what's the use of discussing? Stats, analysis, predictions can all go down the drain because none of you can predict the future. I would laugh if down the line that he does turn into the bust that everyone predicts he will be (given all the great basketball minds on this board that are currently NOT running an NBA team) and then you can all be vindicated while we end up fielding a poor team...
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Post#192 » by CreaM » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:02 pm

Boogie! wrote:uh, sorry what does that have to do with what i wrote? and even if it did, what other 7 footers dive for loose balls?

Lets not look farther than our own team...
Bosh
Rasho
Humps (even though he is not 7 feet, close enough)

Heck...even fat ass shaq dives for looseballs.

Oh yea, Reggie evans.
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Post#193 » by Duffman100 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:03 pm

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Lets not look farther than our own team...
Bosh
Rasho
Humps (even though he is not 7 feet, close enough)

Heck...even fat ass shaq dives for looseballs.

Oh yea, Reggie evans.


Ha! I've never seen Rasho dive for balls haha
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Re: Bargnani discussion 

Post#194 » by mihaic » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:11 pm

CB4_the_CEO wrote:Is there anyone here that actually believes he'll live upto the #1 pick?? if we actually had someone half decent to bang with bosh inside, we'd be a TOP calibre team.....someone like Aldridge wouldve been perfect :cry:
Sorry to say but im not very confident about his game.

Anyways, havent been on here for like 4ever, so dont spasm on me if this has been discussed.


I cannot believe this post generated 14 pages of replies. (Well I have not read any reply at all). I think I should give up on this board for this very reason :cry: (not the post)
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Re: Bargnani discussion 

Post#195 » by CreaM » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:13 pm

AB_7 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I cannot believe this post generated 14 pages of replies. (Well I have not read any reply at all). I think I should give up this bard for this very reason :cry: (not the post)

I dont think anyone would complain if you did...
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Post#196 » by CreaM » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:14 pm

Duffman100 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Ha! I've never seen Rasho dive for balls haha

I have seen him do it quite a number of times...so i guess its my word against yours. :D
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Re: Bargnani discussion 

Post#197 » by ImissBobCostas » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:29 pm

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


I dont think anyone would complain if you did...



I think most of this board really wants YOU to stop posting. At least I do.
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Re: Bargnani discussion 

Post#198 » by RapsBulls4evr » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:33 pm

CreaM wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


Its a useless topic because it does not say "ZOMG, Bargs is the next Dirk"?
Please, get real.

No, it's a useless topic because these discussions/debates have been held countless times... and there has never been nor will ever be an agreement from both parties, the side that is convinced Bargs is a bust each time he struggles, those who simply hate him and would have preferred Aldridge, Roy, Gay, etc... and those of us who keep stressing that Bargs was not NBA ready and management was fully aware with that, so he would need time.

He was drafted with the future in mind, as his potential and reports regarding him were unlike anyone in the draft, and so he was drafted.

Nevertheless, people won't/don't understand that... and simply base their judgements based on 1-2 seasons. It's an endless discussion of back and forth of nothing but immature assumptions, judgements, bitching and hate. Hence why these Bargs threads have become useless.

... I hope I was "real" this time.
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Post#199 » by FluLikeSymptoms » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:42 pm

i can't believe people still call andrea a bad defender. he's a bad help defender, true- but he's our best on-ball post defender (yes, better than rasho (feet)), which is far more difficult. think that's why he guards our opponent's best post scorer whenever he's on the floor? i do. his smarts, feet and length give everyone problems, from tim duncan to KG. just needs experience and strength to be top-tier in that regard. he may never be rasheed wallace, but he'll always be better than bosh on the ball.

most of the defensive fouls he gets are either ticky-tack position- battle fouls (before the camera gets to our end of the floor, lately) or from late help caused partly by our otherwise terrible defense. his lack of help is baffling at times, but other times it's clear he's afraid to release off the guy he's been (gasp!) boxing out. lately, that's been most often the case. the guy is getting better all-around on D, and he's going to be really, really good at that end of the floor soon, IMO.

and offensively? come on. he's got a great package, he's just putting it all together. makes me laugh when people talk about him like our expectations are based on potential. we've seen it, fellas- we've seen how good he can be. we saw it last year down the stretch and in the playoffs, and we saw it the first week of the season, and we saw it for a few games before the break- star quality, which is what you look for in a top pick.

physical fitness = consistency, IMO. if he gets in great shape next summer and adds a jump hook, look out.
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Post#200 » by elmer_yuck » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:50 pm

thesciencedroppa wrote: think that's why he guards our opponent's best post scorer whenever he's on the floor?


Is that why Bosh guarded Dwight Howard?

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