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Feschuk: Moves not enough for championship

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Post#221 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:27 pm by cdel00

tnugget wrote:
Boogie! wrote:
tnugget wrote:my thang is
three way clone parker/moon/kapono into a hybrid of a player that combines all of their best attributes
call him parmoonpono
basically what you have is
-parker's floor general leadership and basketball iq plus good defense
-moon's insane hops and atheticism and ability to jump from beyond the free throw line
-kapono's sweet stoke and ability to stroke it on demand
i think that parmoonpono would rival kobe bryant for mvp honors...
IF THIS WERE POSSIBLE, ****!


what's sad is that even when you combine all three of them, you still don't have good handles and the ability to create shots, which is really what we need out of the wing position.


lawl, this is true. It is actually quite sad..:(


Again I disagree shot creation should happen from the Point Guard position not the wing position. A wing's job is to nail open shots, play great D, move without the ball, facilitate getting Bosh the space he needs to dominate, create mismatches, etc. Slashing the ball to the rim is a great trait but its not the end all and be all of the wing position and I for one would MUCH rather have a superior defender than a superior slasher playing 2G or SF.
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Post#222 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:32 pm by SHootaR

cdel00 wrote:
SHootaR wrote: mine with him WAS, *because* he may have been the same poster who was trying to tell me moon and ap are better than maggette...


I am the one who made the claim about Moon being better than Maggette and I still believe it. I use no aliases and have nothing to gain or lose by posting on here. I simply enjoy it.

I also invited you to provide stats and explain why you thought Maggs was a better contributer than Moon was and I am still waiting for those. I've explained to you why I think Moon is better at SF than Maggs on the RAPTORS - much more efficient scorer, much better defender, less turn over prone, creates more oppurtunities through blocks, steals and offensie rebounds, doesn't need a high volume of shots to be effective, fits better with Sam as coach, etc.

I also explained that AP was the best 2G in league at making the entry pass to the low post and is deadly from 3, has a nice pull up jumper and is a natural team leader.

You simply dismissed the idea and continued discussing your ideas with other posters. Quite well I might add as your arguments have merit and are delivered within reason.

Furthermore I invite you visit the Clippers board and judge their rather luke warm reaction to Maggette leaving some are actually quite happy to see him go even though they got nothing in return.

Anyways, I have enjoyed the fairly well thought arguments on both sides of the discussion and have enjoyed reading your posts so thank you for contributing in a respectable and well thought out manner.


dude i dismissed your idea b/c its literally ABSURD. i'm not trying to be mean here, just being honest. it honestly doesnt even merrit my time its THAT absurd. but if you're right, then AP will get a 10 million dollar contract next summer from someone and you can come laughing in my face. diddo Moon...

please bud ask around, you might think its just me being stubborn, but see what happens when you tell other knowledgable posters AP and Moon are better ball players than Maggette. you need help man lol. i realize we're all raps fans here, but bro, just get that help.
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Post#223 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:37 pm by Death Knight

Uros Slowcar wrote:
Death Knight wrote:Once again, If Bargnani was and is so insignificant now, because the Raptors acquired JO, then they might as well cancel all of Bargnani's summer plans with the workouts, training, and camps. Who cares right???



My point is that 08/09 season does not depend on Bargnani's play. He was a massive liabilty last year, and going into this season relying on him to shoulder the load at C is not going to happen. You said "Bargnani has GOT TO BE a contributor this upcoming season otherwise the raptors are in big trouble". Thats not true.


Bargnani is potentially our best player coming off the bench (6th man). So are you saying the bench isn't important? And don't bring up the Boston Celtics. Their bench was being questioned going into last season, but they stepped up big time with guys like Posey, PJ Brown, Leone Powe, and Eddie House. And then you look at the Lakers, their bench was considered to be one of the best in the NBA.

Bargnani essentially becomes THE BENCH along with either Moon or Kapono, which ever one is not starting. Bench is very important. You don't need a lot of depth like 10+ guys. But your 6th, 7th, and maybe 8th guy have to be contributors.
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Post#224 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:44 pm by cdel00

SHootaR wrote:
cdel00 wrote:
SHootaR wrote: mine with him WAS, *because* he may have been the same poster who was trying to tell me moon and ap are better than maggette...


I am the one who made the claim about Moon being better than Maggette and I still believe it. I use no aliases and have nothing to gain or lose by posting on here. I simply enjoy it.

I also invited you to provide stats and explain why you thought Maggs was a better contributer than Moon was and I am still waiting for those. I've explained to you why I think Moon is better at SF than Maggs on the RAPTORS - much more efficient scorer, much better defender, less turn over prone, creates more oppurtunities through blocks, steals and offensie rebounds, doesn't need a high volume of shots to be effective, fits better with Sam as coach, etc.

I also explained that AP was the best 2G in league at making the entry pass to the low post and is deadly from 3, has a nice pull up jumper and is a natural team leader.

You simply dismissed the idea and continued discussing your ideas with other posters. Quite well I might add as your arguments have merit and are delivered within reason.

Furthermore I invite you visit the Clippers board and judge their rather luke warm reaction to Maggette leaving some are actually quite happy to see him go even though they got nothing in return.

Anyways, I have enjoyed the fairly well thought arguments on both sides of the discussion and have enjoyed reading your posts so thank you for contributing in a respectable and well thought out manner.


dude i dismissed your idea b/c its literally ABSURD. i'm not trying to be mean here, just being honest. it honestly doesnt even merrit my time its THAT absurd. but if you're right, then AP will get a 10 million dollar contract next summer from someone and you can come laughing in my face. diddo Moon...

please bud ask around, you might think its just me being stubborn, but see what happens when you tell other knowledgable posters AP and Moon are better ball players than Maggette. you need help man lol. i realize we're all raps fans here, but bro, just get that help.



Actually that fat 10 mil contract Maggs got is about 9 Million more reasons why I think Moon is a better SF for the Raps. Maggette is a volume scorer and we all know volume scorers get paid but really when you look at the wins Maggette produced vs the wins Moon produced can you truely argue my claim is Absurd?

Still go grab the stats and while you ar looking at those pretty ppg numbers Maggs put up just try and also visualize just how much his 500 misses + 200 turnovers hurt his team. Thats enough bricks to build a house in some countries.
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Post#225 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:45 pm by Death Knight

Bosh and O'Neal (if healthy) will bring it. We know what to expect. They will make the Raptors a good team. But Bargnani is the difference between 1st exit and Eastern Conference Finals. If Bargnani can produce like he did in the second half of his rookie season or even slightly better, then I will say the Raptors reach at least the Eastern Conference finals.

Bargnani wasn't a star in his rookie season, but he was a contributor. He needs to turn it around from his second season and be a contributor in his upcoming 3rd season.

Let's taking into consideration that the East seems to be getting much better.
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Post#226 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:49 pm by SHootaR

cdel00 wrote:Actually that fat 10 mil contract Maggs got is about 9 Million more reasons why I think Moon is a better SF for the Raps. Maggette is a volume scorer and we all know volume scorers get paid but really when you look at the wins Maggette produced vs the wins Moon produced can you truely argue my claim is Absurd?

Still go grab the stats and while you ar looking at those pretty ppg numbers Maggs put up just try and also visualize just how much his 500 misses + 200 turnovers hurt his team. Thats enough bricks to build a house in some countries.


lol ok dude do me a favor. seriously. just to see what happens. make a new thread. say Jamario Moon is a better nba player than Corey Maggette. Not per dollar, just flat out a better player since that is your argument...and see how many ppl can rationally agree with you. and keep in mind this is IN a raptors forum, so the results will be skewed in your favor.
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Post#227 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:00 pm by Bryans_Collar

Shootar: Don't be a **** tool. This league has a salary cap therefore every discussion about the value between 2 players has to be predicated on their contract status, not just their talent in a vacuum.

That's why you can't **** up top draft picks - you're getting a shot to get a superstar output out of a player on a rookie contract.

As for the article, I don't understand what the point is. The same article could be written for 2/3 of the teams in the league. I wonder if someone in the LA Times would write such an article IF LAC got Baron & kept Brand? B/c most experts say they'd still have been hard up to make the playoffs. Most teams in the league don't have a prayer even after adding a big time UFA - is Philly a title team? Hell no.

Unless you have the uber-stars (Duncan, Kobe, Shaq prime, Bron, CP3) who provide sick value even when paid the max salary, it's almost impossible to get it done with just trades and free agents .... you need to hit home runs in the draft.

Nobody said that this trade was supposed to make us a title team, it was simply supposed to make us better than what we currently are, without **** up our future. Clearly it has done that.

Our chance to build a surefire title team was **** once they changed the draft rules and we missed Oden/Durant, and then completely sunk once we drafted Bargs.

Hell, you add B. Roy to our current team and take Bargs off and we're still not a surefire contender (although I think we'd be very close in the mix in the East).
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Post#228 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:02 pm by YogiStewart

Marvin! wrote:the over-rating of Corey Maggette has reached epic proportions around here. It's just so absurd.


he ain't no JR Smith, that's fo sho'
Oogla Carr: MLSE Employee of the Year
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Post#229 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:08 pm by SHootaR

Bryans_Collar wrote:Shootar: Don't be a **** tool. This league has a salary cap therefore every discussion about the value between 2 players has to be predicated on their contract status, not just their talent in a vacuum.


LOL i wasn't being a tool, please don't embarrass yourself. You clearly came into a discussion halfway through and not at the start. You misinterpreted his initial argument. Go refer to page 10...you don't have to apologize.
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Post#230 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:26 pm by from24ft

Magette was the go to guy on the Clippers. He commands way more attention than Moon. When have you seen Moon double teamed? If anything, you saw the opposite, teams preferred that Moon take the shot instead of Bosh, Kapono, Parker.

I agree that contract wise Moon is the better value, but if we are simply talking about which player is best... than Magette clearly wins by landslide. We were dying for a 2nd scorer last year and Moon couldn't do that consistently even though he was given tons of room up top.

Magette on the other hand would be deadly on our team. You can point to missed shots and TO, I will point to FT. Every time we inflict a foul on a team down low we make our bigs stronger.

(In fact I wish we had a wing player that could get to the line like Mags, it would spread the floor a lot more than Kapono)
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Post#231 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:48 pm by cdel00

Dear SHootaR

I know what the issue is really about it's how do we upgrade the already very good combo of Moon AP JK and Adams. I have given numbers supporting Moon's value an comparing him with a star. Do you think that is unreasonable?

The stats put Moon in a very good class of swing men as his ability to generate extra possessions through his very low turn over rate, excellent block numbers and good steals and the versatility that he brings in being able to switch off on defense vs 80% of league and still hold his own. To me that is very impressive. Furthermore he has developed a himself in the favour of its franchise player, coach and GM while still only truly learning the NBA game. He has only scratched his potential. O'Neal should allow Moon more room to be aggressive on D and that alone is worth the price of admission. Moon, aggressive, thats quality basket ball and I expect Moon to learn a lot from O'Neal and to develop nicely.

Anthony Parker is an experienced, savvy, vet. who knows how to make the most out of every play. Sometimes his body fails to be consistent in heavy minutes and suffers from cold streaks but his will and his game plan is always there. Big solid 2G with court vision, and fundamentals producing efficiently. O'Neal should allow more rest for AP since Sam can rest him longer with out sacrificing the overall defensive on court intelligence. That rest should allow AP the rest to be at peak performance.

Kapono is a dead eye shot but needs to be given the ball at he right moment when the d is far enough away for him to catch and shoot (.22seconds). When Kapono gets the ball 3 rebounders should attack the rim because his rebounds are juicy. On d he is a liability but atleast the team can plan a defensive rotation for when he gets beat. As long as he challenges Js the front court has the paint covered. O'Neal should be able to limit the damage caused by Kapono getting beat.

So far the presence of Mr O'Neal on defense will far and away be the best contributions he can make to the efforts of a very solid wing corps.


Maggette can't do that. He shoots worse than Kapono AP and Moon, defends worse than AP and Moon and how many years of playoff experience does Maggs bring? Come on please if you are going to upgrade a wing spot please either pick a guy who can defend better than Moon or shoot better than Kapono. Then explain how to sacrifice what little depth we have to get them.

And please lay off the hope that Hibbert brings - he's young he's a big it'll take him lots of mistakes to learn how to NBA and by then Bosh would be crazy. That would also have crushed the hope we have in Bargnani to come around and start balling he's going to be able to focus alot better now and i expect to see some great numbers from him. O'Neal is a very good option the best option and for this team his effect is going to produce on the Raptors will rival Nash's on the Suns. Thats ballin. Thats what O'Neal said at the PC its in his eyes. Ballin!

Fun is believing in BC's vision. At the PC Sam looked like the Simpson in a candy store or kinda like Rivers did last year.

Fun year to be a Raptor fan - start drinking the Kool Aid it tastes great.

:cheers:
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Post#232 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:14 pm by cchrome

from24ft wrote:Magette was the go to guy on the Clippers. He commands way more attention than Moon. When have you seen Moon double teamed? If anything, you saw the opposite, teams preferred that Moon take the shot instead of Bosh, Kapono, Parker.

I agree that contract wise Moon is the better value, but if we are simply talking about which player is best... than Magette clearly wins by landslide. We were dying for a 2nd scorer last year and Moon couldn't do that consistently even though he was given tons of room up top.

Magette on the other hand would be deadly on our team. You can point to missed shots and TO, I will point to FT. Every time we inflict a foul on a team down low we make our bigs stronger.

(In fact I wish we had a wing player that could get to the line like Mags, it would spread the floor a lot more than Kapono)


Would you rather have Starting SG C Maggette and Brad Miller or Anthony Parker and JO? Thats the better question thats the bottom line.
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Post#233 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:35 pm by SoulJah

so hold on, suddenly all those hopefuls are back to pessimistic views of three weeks ago. Guys have some hope, this move is a next step towards the goal we're trying to achieve. I don't know why they think we're stuck with this move. If it doesn't work, next year we go another year and JO moves off the books meaning extremely huge cap space to sign another star and Bosh is ONLY 24, he hasn't even hit his prime which is 28 for most players. What is up with this panic modes that we suddenly switch as soon as we see an article as such?
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Post#234 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:42 pm by cdel00

I posed this in the VC thread but it applies to Maggette as well

Instead of Maggette find me a better defender than Moon. Go after Battier, Artest, Bell or Prince, thats what we need. We need the opposite type player of Carter.

Raja Bell for Andre Bargnani.
Shane Battier for Jason Kapono
Prince for Bargs and Humphries
Artest for Bargs and Graham

Obviously draft picks would be need to balance the trades but if you want to go after a player pick from those 4 :) All 4 of them are brilliant defenders.
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Post#235 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:53 pm by El Presidente

Championship? This guy makes me laugh. Actually, anybody who mentions the Raptors and championship in the same sentence is delusional. Our goal should be to win a playoff round and take a team to 6 games in Round 2. Once we have that, we'll get some confidence on this team and they'll actually start believing they can contend. A couple years of moderate playoff successes later we might be able to add a player or two that could take us to the EC finals and maybe win it. Even that is a BIG stretch given how proactive teams have been in improving themselves, especially in the East.

This is such a stupid title for an article, I mean give me one team that's made a move so far this summer that is now a championship contender??? To expect Colangelo to do anything more than put this team in position to win a couple playoff rounds is asking too much. And since did we Raptor fans start expecting a championship? I mean, we've made the playoff two years in a row in a weak East and gotten our asses handed to us both times, how do you go from that to talking about championships? Nothing here makes sense.
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Post#236 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:58 pm by evilRyu

El Presidente wrote:Championship? This guy makes me laugh. Actually, anybody who mentions the Raptors and championship in the same sentence is delusional. Our goal should be to win a playoff round and take a team to 6 games in Round 2. Once we have that, we'll get some confidence on this team and they'll actually start believing they can contend. A couple years of moderate playoff successes later we might be able to add a player or two that could take us to the EC finals and maybe win it. Even that is a BIG stretch given how proactive teams have been in improving themselves, especially in the East.

This is such a stupid title for an article, I mean give me one team that's made a move so far this summer that is now a championship contender??? To expect Colangelo to do anything more than put this team in position to win a couple playoff rounds is asking too much. And since did we Raptor fans start expecting a championship? I mean, we've made the playoff two years in a row in a weak East and gotten our asses handed to us both times, how do you go from that to talking about championships? Nothing here makes sense.


I agree, it's WAY too premature to talk the C word.... But you really can't help the fact that it's the players goals. If JO never said the word "championship" in the PC, then I don't think this article would be made (just my guess?). But once JO said it, it opened up a can of worms.
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Post#237 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:15 am by ImissBobCostas

El Presidente wrote:Championship? This guy makes me laugh. Actually, anybody who mentions the Raptors and championship in the same sentence is delusional. Our goal should be to win a playoff round and take a team to 6 games in Round 2. Once we have that, we'll get some confidence on this team and they'll actually start believing they can contend. A couple years of moderate playoff successes later we might be able to add a player or two that could take us to the EC finals and maybe win it. Even that is a BIG stretch given how proactive teams have been in improving themselves, especially in the East.

This is such a stupid title for an article, I mean give me one team that's made a move so far this summer that is now a championship contender??? To expect Colangelo to do anything more than put this team in position to win a couple playoff rounds is asking too much. And since did we Raptor fans start expecting a championship? I mean, we've made the playoff two years in a row in a weak East and gotten our asses handed to us both times, how do you go from that to talking about championships? Nothing here makes sense.


From what I thought, it's been understood for 2 seasons that the Raps were a 2 HUGE pieces away from contention:
- Big time defensive anchor in the paint.
- Near all-star level wing.

A lot of teams are 2 HUGE pieces away from contention. They're generally the 3-6 seed teams.

However, the Raps added one huge piece by giving up what amounted to a back-up PG.

I feel, the Raps are now a 'near' all-star level wing from a championship.

Add Joe Johnson/Kevin Martin/V.C/Roy/Iggy.... to this roster and the Raps could win it all.

This is basketball not hockey or football, a few players make a huge difference.
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Post#238 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:19 am by galeon110

Raps should make a run for VC or Carmelo. I don't care if it takes Jose Calderon, Kapono, Bargnani and 2 first round picks to do it. Just get it done. When you have JO and Bosh, you go all the way and sacrifice your future to go into win now mode, or else the JO move would be a waste of 2 years and a good chance of winning the championship. The foundation is laid out, now go get the icing which is an all star SG right now.
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Post#239 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:55 am by RaptorGuy

Raptolicism wrote:I've got to say that I agree with little that Feschuck says. Maybe I'm mistaken but there always seems to be a negative tone to his articles; almost just for the sake of being negative.



Feschuk is a joke of a journalist. He's an attention seeker. No substance to most of his articles and loves to stir the pot.
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Post#240 Re: Feschuk: Moves not enough for championshi
Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:06 am by RapTelligence

GSW gave Maggette 10 over 5 years. And just last year they traded a player (J-Rich) with a similar contract. What is the GSW strategy? Just sign a player of another team because you are pissed that team grabbed your star player? Maggette just lucked out due to some moronic management in GS. Thank god we don't have such morons running our team.
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