Feschuk: Moves not enough for championship

[Southward1]

If we where in win now mode BC would've traded Bargnani for an upgrade over the wing, he didn't. He's not in win-now mode. He's in, let's see what we have here until 2010 where if it fails it's a rebuild, and if the raps make it to the 2nd round twice resign o'neal to something like 3/27-30 million, which gives you 10 million on that SF again.

This team is better than they where before the trade. Again how many wins do you think this team will give you...

Jose/Ford/Roko
Parker/Adams
Moon/Kapono
Bosh/Hump
Bargs/Rasho/Jawai

40-45 is my guess, maybe less.

[SHootaR]

You could also argue that Moon and AP are better than Maggette. And on this team I would MUCH rather having the ball in Bosh's or O'Neal's hands than in Maggette's. If Bosh or O'Neal need to pass the ball I would much rather have it go to either Jose, AP, Moon or Kapono ALL of whom are much more efficient scorers than Maggette.

WOW. how could you argue Moon or AP are better than Maggette?? This is what's wrong in raptorland. It's so sad. If you took a poll outside of Raptorland who's the best of that trio, Maggette would get 100% of the votes. please.

Please use some stats to tell me otherwise.

As I can pull stats till I'm blue in the face to back up my claim.

LOL so you're serious. thats crazy.

[cchrome]

the people on this board who piss all over this move crack me up and all I can think is that either nothign will make them happy even if we added LeBron or they don't know basketball or the NBA as well as they think they do .. now people are crying for Magette... i'm sorry is Magette going to fix the rebounding and interior D of this team.. didn't think so ... you're talking about a pretty limited wing... shot's not great but can drive ... he wasn't the answer... our biggest problem was interior D and rebounding... well guess what people we solved that problem... no team has a roster full of All Stars... our roster is really good ... what AP and JK lack in skill with other wings they make up in smarts ... like Garbo AP does all the little things and can shoot... JK has been there and won a title and contributed alot to the Heat that year... his experience and shooting is very valuable... these are all things that novice bball fans won't pick up on ... the same people that are calling out BC and this trade on these boards...

BC good job...

lol at calling ppl 'novice ball fans' cuz we disagree with your opinion.

and you CLEARLY totally missed the point on maggette. maggette would allow us to STILL improve the centre position, interior D, rebounding, shotblocking etc etc. maggette unlike JO doesn't cost 20 million, he costs HALF of that. why you would suggest we'd be finished after acquiring maggette is beyond me.

By your responses I would call you novice also. Suggesting getting Maggette rather than JO, and then filling the C postion with who? Diop? JO is a career scorer, when starting, with the kind of #'s Maggette put up in his one career year. If you think your getting Okafor for under starting 13mil a year your fooling urself; on top of that not less than 5 year deal to make it worse. What postion is easier to fill with a quality player or should I say All-star player, SG or C? has Mags even been to the All-star game? #2 if you consider JO injury prone what does that make Maggette? He's allllwwaaayysss injured. Plus, what has Maggette ever contributed to a winning team? the only year his team had a playoff run he was injured for like half the year. He would be a good pick up as a 6th man, but not at what Golden State signed him for. Ur willing to pay more than that or even close to that? If so U truly are novice. Amazing trade BC. When other teams realize they dont have a chance on making the play-offs and look towards the future and we are playing well enough that BC is ready to take the REAL risk, then expect another big move before the deadline and some of our role assets being moved for the SG/Slasher, that would be the only smart time to move into the tax; if you absolutly HAVE to.

[Guy Smiley]

Here's are the salaries for next year (more or less):

Code: Select all

Jermaine O'Neal   $22,995,000
Chris Bosh        $15,779,912
Jose Calderon      $8,500,000
Jason Kapono       $6,212,960
Andrea Bargnani    $6,527,490
Nathan Jawai         $500,000
Roko Ukic          $1,500,000
Kris Humphries     $3,000,000
Hassan Adams         $750,000
Joey Graham        $3,441,104

That's $69,206,466 right there for you. If the luxury tax increases by $2M to $73M, we would have only about $3.8M to re-sign Moon, sign Parker's replacement, and fill out the roster with 2 or 3 more signings. Good luck with that!

This is really the crux of my discontentment. Sure, I have never liked JO as a player due to his style of play and body type but it is the fact that the Raps seem to be locked into their current roster for the next year or so.

This team doesn't strike me as a team worth $70 million. I like Jose and Bosh but to think we have next to no wriggle room to help their cause it really is a bit disheartening.

Here's hoping Roko can come out and surprise or perhaps Jose will fall into my fan favourite slot because I'm desperately scrambling to find something of interest this coming season.

A new coach would dramatically change my perception of the team as it is constructed. If Rick Carlisle or Jeff Van Gundy had a chance to utilize these assets I would have more hope for the season but as we sit now I cringe at the system I envision for the team.

[Pchu]

Ah, I see more people questioning Colangelo here...

We know he is not perfect, let's face it he is the one who traded Kidd for Marbury. I will say this about him, he takes risks. He is not afraid to change, when things doesn't work.

So far, he has made some bold moves, and I say the only one that really backfired was the Bargnani as the #1 pick. I wasn't a big fan of the TJ Ford-CV trade, but Ford is a better player, and the Bucks didn't go anywhere with CV. Plus, I doubt CV would have gotten us Jermaine O'Neal (even now). So the Raps win that trade.

I have some doubts about the O'Neil trade, as I have said before. I am not too crazy about the lack of flexibility in the short term. And really this trade isn't going to make this team a championship contender. At best, we will win a round, but that's about it.

[SHootaR]

By your responses I would call you novice also. Suggesting getting Maggette rather than JO, and then filling the C postion with who? Diop? JO is a career scorer, when starting, with the kind of #'s Maggette put up in his one career year. If you think your getting Okafor for under starting 13mil a year your fooling urself; on top of that not less than 5 year deal to make it worse. What postion is easier to fill with a quality player or should I say All-star player, SG or C? has Mags even been to the All-star game? #2 if you consider JO injury prone what does that make Maggette? He's allllwwaaayysss injured. Plus, what has Maggette ever contributed to a winning team? the only year his team had a playoff run he was injured for like half the year. He would be a good pick up as a 6th man, but not at what Golden State signed him for. Ur willing to pay more than that or even close to that? If so U truly are novice. Amazing trade BC. When other teams realize they dont have a chance on making the play-offs and look towards the future and we are playing well enough that BC is ready to take the REAL risk, then expect another big move before the deadline and some of our role assets being moved for the SG/Slasher, that would be the only smart time to move into the tax; if you absolutly HAVE to.

wow if i'm a novice with my responses...you must be....not worth it.

maggette a good 6th man, WOW
and lol @ your comparison of Magette and JO injury prone. Maggette has avged 72 games a year over his past 2 years, JO has avged 55...please stop.

[Boobs]

Duke...the link doesn't exist anymore.

However, I think we are either one good wing player away from a championship or a Playoff Jason Kapono away from being close to it.

______
Kingz

[Prop]

my god...some of you guys are freakin' ridiculous. you're upset at this move because it doesn't make the raps an immediate contender. amazing. i really don't understand you guys. some of you guys really need to live in this place called "reality". its a place where marginal teams don't magically become contenders overnight (unless you're lucky enough to be boston lol)

we get a player that VASTLY improves 2 of our biggest weaknesses (interior D, rebounding), has playoff experience, can put up 20 a game and gives us one of, if not THE best PF/C combos in the league and ultimately puts us a few steps closer to being an elite team. and we got him without mortgaging our future or giving up anyone that important other than tj, who we all knew was going to go anyways.

but hey, i guess if it doesn't make us a lock for the finals, improving the team is completely pointless, right?

Dude, calm down, you're barking up the wrong tree. We're happy with the move, we just want a follow-up move to get us from "good" to "contender". This is not about O'Neal.

ok, umm...well...when you're BUILDING a team to contend you have the vast majority (boston's the exception) take steps towards that goal. jermaine is one of those steps, a big step imo. now, considering what we have and what players are out there, what is the realistic follow-up move that moves us from good to great?

i don't see how we can possibly land one of the star wings out there with what little we have. unless you're one of those guys that think maggette is the final piece to the puzzle...and we probably can't even get him. maybe as the summer or even the season wears on other teams will be more flexible about trading their good players and we could get lucky enough to get someone that vaults the raps into the elite of the league. but damn, be patient, it's only been like a week.

i'd love to see us grab a good perimeter/slashing threat but it just might not be viable at this point. either way, imo it's been a successful summer when you land an all-star calibre big man who is one of the best defenders in the league for a quasi-starting pg and some change.

[The_Hater]

I hope nobody thought about us being a championship type team even with JO. Because what Feschuk wrote was a no brainer.

This was the first thing I thought too. People are so impatient nowadays, thinking that you turned a .500 team into a championship overnight. Of course Boston has clouded everyone's judgement on this issue by actually pulling off the big turnaround, but that was obviously a special instance that has never happened before.

JO is a move forward and that's all that you can ask. People really forget and underappreciate what a mess BC took over after the Babcock. We were a bad team with a couple of assets and nobody viewed us as an up-and-comer. Our organization and our team was a complete and utter mess. Now we're going the right direction, just give the man time to finish what he started.

[RingItUp!]

Without reading pages 2 - 9 in this thread OR the entirety of Feschuk's article (I'm normally pretty thorough but today I'm very busy), I will offer this opinion...

Acquiring JO for TJ + Rasho + draft pick + filler is definitely a win-now move. Of course, BC wouldn't be a very astute manager if he blindly followed a literal interpretation of "win-now". Given JO's contract length and cap hit, this move weighs the potential upside of an All Star talent returning to form against the minimal downside of an ineffective player who will provide cap flexibility when his deal expires in two years.

We weren't going anywhere with TJ as the lead guard. He also wasn't going to land us a no-doubt game-changing swingman. BC managed to turn him into a player that MIGHT provide the team with one of the strongest frontcourts in the East (along with Boston, Orlando, Philly, Detroit, Cleveland and Orlando). We also managed to Ford into a huge expiring contract if we don't turn into an elite team.

That seems like a decent success to me.

[Reignman]

This trade transforms us from a soft, jump-shooting team, to a hard-nosed, interior tough team, just like that.
JO's leadership also changes the mindset of the team, from a nice guy, open the door for the slasher type of team, to a get outta the f'ing paint type of team.

Me like.

Championship calibre or not.

Actually I think we need a coaching upgrade or a least an assistant coach or two added on par with Thibo in Boston to seriously compete in the playoffs.

Exactly the way I'm looking at this trade.

People, even if we duplicate our wins from last year (41) atleast we have a team that can make some noise in the first round simply by our improved defense.

The only way this team becomes a title contender as it stands, is if JO regains his MVP-type form, Bosh continues his 20/10 ways with improved help defense, and Jose starts imposing his will. All those things happening are unlikely, so we're probably going to be a lot closer the the 1st option.

Also, a lot of what's going to happen depends on AB's improvement. If he proves he can be a 14/5 guy off the bench, we probably don't need that wing player. If he doesn't show any noticeable improvements, I can guarantee we'll be shopping him with our other role players to bring in a wing at the deadline.

[Guy Smiley]

Building a championship is not a linear process so all the talk of patience is just as silly as those clamouring for a ring this season. Either a team has the assets or it doesn't and needs to go out and get them by any means necessary.

I have never thought Bosh could be the main guy on a championship team and would need more help than a legit superstar player so the team needs to add a whole lot more to its core.

Bryan continues to shuffle the deck and I'm glad he has the wherewithal to do so but sooner or later something needs to stick. Bosh isn't getting any younger and more importantly his contract status could come into play. In order to be moving in the right direction the team needs to make serious strides to either help build around Bosh or bring in a guy that can supplant him as the man.

[cchrome]

By your responses I would call you novice also. Suggesting getting Maggette rather than JO, and then filling the C postion with who? Diop? JO is a career scorer, when starting, with the kind of #'s Maggette put up in his one career year. If you think your getting Okafor for under starting 13mil a year your fooling urself; on top of that not less than 5 year deal to make it worse. What postion is easier to fill with a quality player or should I say All-star player, SG or C? has Mags even been to the All-star game? #2 if you consider JO injury prone what does that make Maggette? He's allllwwaaayysss injured. Plus, what has Maggette ever contributed to a winning team? the only year his team had a playoff run he was injured for like half the year. He would be a good pick up as a 6th man, but not at what Golden State signed him for. Ur willing to pay more than that or even close to that? If so U truly are novice. Amazing trade BC. When other teams realize they dont have a chance on making the play-offs and look towards the future and we are playing well enough that BC is ready to take the REAL risk, then expect another big move before the deadline and some of our role assets being moved for the SG/Slasher, that would be the only smart time to move into the tax; if you absolutly HAVE to.

wow if i'm a novice with my responses...you must be....not worth it.

maggette a good 6th man, WOW
and lol @ your comparison of Magette and JO injury prone. Maggette has avged 72 games a year over his past 2 years, JO has avged 55...please stop.

Whats wrong with being a good (ill upgrade to Great) 6th man? What are you saying about Manu's game? And Mags isnt injury prone? seems odd that in a discussion of being injury prone you'd only quote the last 2 years. What does Maggette bring as well as his Elite scoring, last time I checked JO Scorer Rebounder Positional/weakside Defender and Locker Room Presence, plus a 6 time all-star not sure how you can argue with that

[Shaazzam]

I simply said i'd RATHER watch a non-playoff team with championship aspirations than a team with no such goals get into the playoffs and get embarrassed.

This is a very interesting comment, which, while I see where you are going, seems to be the most unreasonably optimimistic mindset possible.

well last time i checked his philosophies have been abandoned both in phoenix, and now in toronto (by himself) and he's wasted valuable years of core players, for his ridiculous jumpshooting experiments.

Whose philosphies were abondoned?

BC's?

I would say it was D'Antoni's. BC built a team for him.

Who was the happiest guy on the podium yesterday?

Mitchell. Because he got a big who could play defence and rebound, as well as get touches in the mid-to-low post and also kept a PG that he is very happy with moving forward. TJ was brought in at a time when we had no legit number #1 PG. And that asset has now been flipped to acquire somehting else we didn't have, a defensive presence. And that was done by the GM.

So I'm not sure which philosphy of BC's you are talking about that has been thrown out with the bath water. And I'm not sure why jumpshooting is such a bad thing. If you can't shoot, you aren't going to win. Eventually you need to outscore your opponent, and if you are forced looking to grind things out in the half court, you are going to have to hit some shots. And guess what acquiring another mid post guy is going to generate? Even more space for our jump shooters to be effective.

Now do we still need to do a better jump getting to the line and manufacturing points in that manner? I'd say yes, we do. But the thing with the scoring wing is that it's fairly difficult to find one that is efficient offensively, gets to the line, and can play defence.

But we can swing a deal using rasho/bargs/parker ala lakers and get a 4th piece along with some nice youngins.

So if we have those four pieces are we not in win now mode?

[cchrome]

I don't think so. I believe Garbo comes off the books next year as well as Joey Graham. That's around= 7 mill in savings right there. Add in another 5.5 mill with Parker and Moon off the books, and that's plenty of room to sign Moon + PArker or Parker's replacement.

Here's are the salaries for next year (more or less):

Code: Select all

Jermaine O'Neal   $22,995,000
Chris Bosh        $15,779,912
Jose Calderon      $8,500,000
Jason Kapono       $6,212,960
Andrea Bargnani    $6,527,490
Nathan Jawai         $500,000
Roko Ukic          $1,500,000
Kris Humphries     $3,000,000
Hassan Adams         $750,000
Joey Graham        $3,441,104

That's $69,206,466 right there for you. If the luxury tax increases by $2M to $73M, we would have only about $3.8M to re-sign Moon, sign Parker's replacement, and fill out the roster with 2 or 3 more signings. Good luck with that!

Hump not supposed to be there and Joey I expect to not be there, could be down to 62 in 1 move for an expiring

[ghuytro]

can't agree with that. i think many would agree we're losing our 2nd best scorer on the team in TJ as well. how can you 'forget' to add him in. will calderon make up for TJ's scoring?? will calderon average 23 pts a game??

Trading Ford for JO will have the effect of increasing our offensive efficiency, improving our defense, increasing our possessions and increase our overall scoring.

1. TJ did not average 23 points a game - he averaged 12.1 PPG vs. Jose's 11.2 PPG.

2. TJ Ford was not an efficient scorer. He had an eFG% of 48% versus Jose's 58%. He averaged 1.18 PPS versus Jose's 1.30 PPS. Finally, TJ averaged 12.1 PPG on 10.3 FGA/game versus Jose's 11.2 PPG on 8.6 FGA/game.

3. Jose will likely average more shots next year with probably a similar efficiency so he will score more and take shots away from less efficient scorers (eg. Moon, Bargnani).

4. Bosh is going to have a career year in PPG because of the presence of Jermain O'Neal. I'd be willing to wager that he's going to average at least 25 PPG next year.

5. Kapono is going to average more PPG next year because of JO & Bosh playing a lot of minutes together. He's another efficient scorer.

Overall, I think our offensive efficiency will increase.
Our defense will improve - we'll average more blocks and more rebounds. This will mean more possessions.
Having the ball more in Jose's hands will mean fewer turnovers - also more possessions.
Combine more possessions with a more efficient offense and...

You get more scoring. Sans TJ. With Jose.

LOL @ #1.

when did i suggest TJ scored 23 a game. whats 12 +11??? BINGO. if jose wants to make up TJ's scoring he must avg 23 a game, which is what i said.

the rest of your points are purely speculation on your behalf and extreme optimism.

So I present an argument with reasoning and backup for my opinion and you dismiss it out of hand as speculation and optimism with no argument to the contrary.

Not even a "Jose sucks it was a contract year his percentages will fall" or a "Jermaine O'Neal will not be healthy the entire year and we revert back to last year's offense in his absence minus Rasho to anchor the defense".

[supersub15]

Hump not supposed to be there and Joey I expect to not be there, could be down to 62 in 1 move for an expiring

Hump signed a 3-year deal. He's there alright. And Joey should be there, unless we trade him, in which case replace his $3M salary by somebody else's $3M salary. Back to square one.

[Marvin!]

the over-rating of Corey Maggette has reached epic proportions around here. It's just so absurd.

[Vorticity]

1)I'd rather follow the San Antonio model than the Boston model, that over the night thingy was the exception not the norm.

2)As mentioned by many posters, corporations never go out all and gamble it all, they have a very defined and rigid financial structure and plan, what a lot of people here miss is that like it or not, BC is responsible towards the shareholders of MLSE, every move he makes has to conform to their financial constraints and imo he's done a heck of a job, keeping the shareholders happy and gradually improving the team, step by step.

This was the first step.

[cheapfoul]

the over-rating of Corey Maggette has reached epic proportions around here. It's just so absurd.

Exactly.

If people really wanna complain about this deal, they should be complaining about the fact that we didn't trade Ford for Wallace straight up and then use our 17th on Hibbert (for lack of a better big man available at 17. He's comparable offensively. He's better defensively. He's slightly cheaper. He's not lazy. He's not a cancer. He's younger