Feschuk: Moves not enough for championship

[SHootaR]

^^dude i never assumed camby could guard dwight. no one can. but your example conveniently FORGOT we'd also have a maggette or nice wing like jefferson in the mix. so it makes dwight beasting our centre much more tolerable with a nice scoring wing. why would we need camby to give us 20 a night with a wing getting us 20 a night. i never proposed inserting camby for JO..that would be very stagnant and not much improvement. but camby + maggette and thats a massive upgrade. but thats assuming we could get camby at the deadline for rasho + bargs or whoever.

[Ted Lasso]

can't agree with that. i think many would agree we're losing our 2nd best scorer on the team in TJ as well. how can you 'forget' to add him in. will calderon make up for TJ's scoring?? will calderon average 23 pts a game??

Trading Ford for JO will have the effect of increasing our offensive efficiency, improving our defense, increasing our possessions and increase our overall scoring.

1. TJ did not average 23 points a game - he averaged 12.1 PPG vs. Jose's 11.2 PPG.

2. TJ Ford was not an efficient scorer. He had an eFG% of 48% versus Jose's 58%. He averaged 1.18 PPS versus Jose's 1.30 PPS. Finally, TJ averaged 12.1 PPG on 10.3 FGA/game versus Jose's 11.2 PPG on 8.6 FGA/game.

3. Jose will likely average more shots next year with probably a similar efficiency so he will score more and take shots away from less efficient scorers (eg. Moon, Bargnani).

4. Bosh is going to have a career year in PPG because of the presence of Jermain O'Neal. I'd be willing to wager that he's going to average at least 25 PPG next year.

5. Kapono is going to average more PPG next year because of JO & Bosh playing a lot of minutes together. He's another efficient scorer.

Overall, I think our offensive efficiency will increase.
Our defense will improve - we'll average more blocks and more rebounds. This will mean more possessions.
Having the ball more in Jose's hands will mean fewer turnovers - also more possessions.
Combine more possessions with a more efficient offense and...

You get more scoring. Sans TJ. With Jose.

LOL @ #1.

when did i suggest TJ scored 23 a game. whats 12 +11??? BINGO. if jose wants to make up TJ's scoring he must avg 23 a game, which is what i said.

the rest of your points are purely speculation on your behalf and extreme optimism.

I'm fairly certain that given 53.8mins a game, Jose could average 23ppg... Here is a suggestion; You may want to take care of the 23.5+30.3 before you get to the 12+11 next time.

[Ted Lasso]

I don't think so. I believe Garbo comes off the books next year as well as Joey Graham. That's around= 7 mill in savings right there. Add in another 5.5 mill with Parker and Moon off the books, and that's plenty of room to sign Moon + PArker or Parker's replacement.

Here's are the salaries for next year (more or less):

Code: Select all

Jermaine O'Neal   $22,995,000
Chris Bosh        $15,779,912
Jose Calderon      $8,500,000
Jason Kapono       $6,212,960
Andrea Bargnani    $6,527,490
Nathan Jawai         $500,000
Roko Ukic          $1,500,000
Kris Humphries     $3,000,000
Hassan Adams         $750,000
Joey Graham        $3,441,104

That's $69,206,466 right there for you. If the luxury tax increases by $2M to $73M, we would have only about $3.8M to re-sign Moon, sign Parker's replacement, and fill out the roster with 2 or 3 more signings. Good luck with that!

I believe that's the QO amount for Joey. So it is by no means an obligation.

Also, it's been reported recently that O'Neal has an option for next year. If that is indeed the case, our situation could change considerably. All it'd take is a wink wink 3yrs/45mil deal and we'd have all kinds of room under the threshold.

[gangstaff]

First off, to address Feschuk's article. It's basically a standard Feschuk article, taking the most negative position for any given situation/event. No surprise there. Have you ever seen him on The Reporters on TSN? He has nothing of substance to say and always comes off as an opinions guy, rather than a sports guy.

Having said that, lets look at what he wrote.

*Getting JO is a big gamble. I don't feel its that big of a gamble, especially after getting the details on the knee from JO. Even so, if JO is seen as risky, what did we give up for him? TJ, who is even riskier; Rasho, who was servicable but still a 30+, 8/6 big for 8 million; Baston, a waste of the LLE; and Hibbert, whose ceiling seems to be a prime Rasho.

*We're a treadmill team. Well we were a treadmill team before, one with NO shot at contending let alone advancing in the playoffs. JO took a team to the EC finals that wasn't better than our current team: Foster/Oneal/Artest/Miller/Tinsley. You telling me Oneal/Bosh/Moon/Parker/Jose isn't close to that? I'll match up Jose and Bosh with Artest and Miller any day. Foster was a role player just like Moon. If our bench plays up to their capabilities, its better than Pollard, Croshere, Harrington, etc.

*We're out of cash to make the team better. While this seems to be factually true, we already have a "big 3"...how many more superstars do you need on a team? JO and Bosh together will make the other players look better, just like PP and KG made Rondo and Perkins lives easier and made them look great. Moon was a defensive force for us last year, can you imagine how good our defense could be if Jose becomes even average and plays smart? A lot will rely on Bargs as well...if he can become what BC and JO seem to think he can (dominant), then our frontcourt alone gets us to the second round.

*The East got better, more so than we did. Lots of people here beleive that too. Well, last 2-3 years all I've heard is how Chicago is going to be a powerhouse, Atlanta is always going to mature and destroy everyone with their young stars, Detroit is getting old and worse...NEVER HAPPENS. Yes Philly got Brand and they look pretty good, but a healthy JO (I believe him) and Bosh is still better than Dally/Brand. Those guys haven't won anything yet, they can't shoot 3's at all, they're still a young inexperienced team, and their bench is no better than average. See? Any team has weaknesses or question marks, not just our team. Lets wait until a couple weeks into the season for doom and gloom about how we've been lapped.

Honestly, I've wanted JO here for a while so I'm biased. But I'm also a realist, so if we were doomed to mediocrity I'd be right there calling for BC's head. But at this point, there is just as much reason to be excited as to be scared.

[SHootaR]

I'm fairly certain that given 53.8mins a game, Jose could average 23ppg... Here is a suggestion; You may want to take care of the 23.5+30.3 before you get to the 12+11 next time.

here's a suggestion for you...you may want to actually contribute to the point I was making b4 making irrelevant stat corrections.

the first poster said basically we're trading bit players and EXCLUDED TJ (assuming we're turning 2 pgs into 1 so he was only a redundant statistic) when in reality he was probably our 2nd best scorer on the team and has scored at a much higher rate than jose does the past 2 years. It would be erroneous to suggest we're solely gaining JO's 18 pts when we ARE losing 12 from TJ. Sure calderon will make up a few, but obviously not all of his scoring.

[Death Knight]

I never understood why the Raptors extended Joey Graham.

And Jermaine O'Neal is right in that Bargnani is the key to the Raptors' success (I've had the same opinion of this for a while now). You can't screw up a #1 draft pick, have him bust, and still expect to have success as a team moving forward. Top draft picks aren't cheap in terms of salary either. Bargnani has GOT TO BE a contributor this upcoming season, otherwise, the Raptors are in big trouble.

[cchrome]

Last I checked 18 is higher than 12, didnt we gain?

[Death Knight]

I'm fairly certain that given 53.8mins a game, Jose could average 23ppg... Here is a suggestion; You may want to take care of the 23.5+30.3 before you get to the 12+11 next time.

here's a suggestion for you...you may want to actually contribute to the point I was making b4 making irrelevant stat corrections.

the first poster said basically we're trading bit players and EXCLUDED TJ (assuming we're turning 2 pgs into 1 so he was only a redundant statistic) when in reality he was probably our 2nd best scorer on the team and has scored at a much higher rate than jose does the past 2 years. It would be erroneous to suggest we're solely gaining JO's 18 pts when we ARE losing 12 from TJ. Sure calderon will make up a few, but obviously not all of his scoring.

Why not all of his scoring? It's not like TJ shot an amazing fg%. It's not like TJ shoots the 3 (the benefit of 1 more pt than a 2pter). You aren't losing 12pts from TJ. Those 12pts will just get distributed amongst other players. Same with the shot attempts. Lets say TJ takes 10 shots a game. Those 10 shots will just be distributed now.

Calderon - 2 more shots
Parker - 2 more shots
Kapono - 2 more shots
Moon - 2 more shots
Bargnani - 2 more shots

Or maybe all those 10 extra shots go to Bosh and O'Neal. Whatever! The point is, you never lose anything. Other players will be given the opportunity.

But then again in some people's eyes TJ Ford = GOAT. So how do you replace a GOAT?

[Uros Slowcar]

I never understood why the Raptors extended Joey Graham.

And Jermaine O'Neal is right in that Bargnani is the key to the Raptors' success (I've had the same opinion of this for a while now). You can't screw up a #1 draft pick, have him bust, and still expect to have success as a team moving forward. Top draft picks aren't cheap in terms of salary either. Bargnani has GOT TO BE a contributor this upcoming season, otherwise, the Raptors are in big trouble.

Bargnani doesn't have to attempt to be a major contributor next season (thankfully), thats why O'neal was brought in. Our success next year doesn't hinge on Bargnani's contributions. It would be nice but not necessary. But he has to develop incrementally with a more limited role.

[Ted Lasso]

I'm fairly certain that given 53.8mins a game, Jose could average 23ppg... Here is a suggestion; You may want to take care of the 23.5+30.3 before you get to the 12+11 next time.

here's a suggestion for you...you may want to actually contribute to the point I was making b4 making irrelevant stat corrections.

the first poster said basically we're trading bit players and EXCLUDED TJ (assuming we're turning 2 pgs into 1 so he was only a redundant statistic) when in reality he was probably our 2nd best scorer on the team and has scored at a much higher rate than jose does the past 2 years. It would be erroneous to suggest we're solely gaining JO's 18 pts when we ARE losing 12 from TJ. Sure calderon will make up a few, but obviously not all of his scoring.

I know exactly what the first poster said. He may be right, he may be wrong. It's his opinion. I'll respond to him if and when i choose to. (Sad part is, you are fully guilty of what you are accusing me. You wrote off ghuytro's detailed argument with one sentence.)

If ghuytro's educated assumptions were "purely speculation on (his) behalf and extreme optimism" then what is this?

if jose wants to make up TJ's scoring he must avg 23 a game, which is what i said.

Not letting you get away with your pseudo-winner is "irrelevant"? The only reason my tone was harsh was because you felt the need to "lol" at the man's point and then proceeded to make a highly foolish claim.

[Death Knight]

Last I checked 18 is higher than 12, didnt we gain?

We could either gain and average more pts as a team, or we could either lose and score less than this past season. It all depends.

[Death Knight]

I never understood why the Raptors extended Joey Graham.

And Jermaine O'Neal is right in that Bargnani is the key to the Raptors' success (I've had the same opinion of this for a while now). You can't screw up a #1 draft pick, have him bust, and still expect to have success as a team moving forward. Top draft picks aren't cheap in terms of salary either. Bargnani has GOT TO BE a contributor this upcoming season, otherwise, the Raptors are in big trouble.

Bargnani doesn't have to attempt to be a major contributor next season (thankfully), thats why O'neal was brought in. Our success next year doesn't hinge on Bargnani's contributions. It would be nice but not necessary. But he has to develop incrementally with a more limited role.

If Bargnani was so insignificant, then how come the Raptors regressed last season? The same season that Bargnani regressed. If we assume that Caldeorn had an amazing year and picked up the slack for TJ, with Bosh missing almost the same number of games in 06-07 as 07-08 (13 and 15 respectively), then why such a regression?

Bargnani still plays a key role on the team, even with the addition of JO. Don't kid yourself.

[Death Knight]

Once again, If Bargnani was and is so insignificant now, because the Raptors acquired JO, then they might as well cancel all of Bargnani's summer plans with the workouts, training, and camps. Who cares right???

[SHootaR]

I'm fairly certain that given 53.8mins a game, Jose could average 23ppg... Here is a suggestion; You may want to take care of the 23.5+30.3 before you get to the 12+11 next time.

here's a suggestion for you...you may want to actually contribute to the point I was making b4 making irrelevant stat corrections.

the first poster said basically we're trading bit players and EXCLUDED TJ (assuming we're turning 2 pgs into 1 so he was only a redundant statistic) when in reality he was probably our 2nd best scorer on the team and has scored at a much higher rate than jose does the past 2 years. It would be erroneous to suggest we're solely gaining JO's 18 pts when we ARE losing 12 from TJ. Sure calderon will make up a few, but obviously not all of his scoring.

I know exactly what the first poster said. He may be right, he may be wrong. It's his opinion. I'll respond to him if and when i choose to. (Sad part is, you are fully guilty of what you are accusing me. You wrote off ghuytro's detailed argument with one sentence.)

If ghuytro's educated assumptions were "purely speculation on (his) behalf and extreme optimism" then what is this?

if jose wants to make up TJ's scoring he must avg 23 a game, which is what i said.

Not letting you get away with your pseudo-winner is "irrelevant"? The only reason my tone was harsh was because you felt the need to "lol" at the man's point and then proceeded to make a highly foolish claim.

lol well you're harshness with ME was not justified. mine with him WAS, *because* he may have been the same poster who was trying to tell me moon and ap are better than maggette...but even if he wasnt, he was trying to give me WHAT IFS like AP would get x amount more points cuz hes opened more blah blah blah..that means nothing really. he was trying to tell me everyone else's stats would go up, when in reality you cannot prove that AP and kapono don't score 20 pts a game (using an extreme) solely b/c they dont take 25 shots a game...i'm sure a lot has to do with freeing themselves up for *open* shots so many times a game and with more opportunity or more playing time doesnt necessarily mean scoring at the same pace.

WHEREAS, with TJ, we know what we get. last year PLUS this past year shows what kind of rate he can score at, and it's proabbly 2nd to bosh on the team. if you're trying to tell me that all of TJ's points will go to other players on the team, so YES in fact JO's 18 (which is optimistic imo) will come all for free...i think thats bologni and so should think any educated man.

[SHootaR]

Last I checked 18 is higher than 12, didnt we gain?

TJ got his 12 in 23 minutes...if JO is only playing 23 minutes you MIGHT have a point...but in reality you still wasn't b/c MY point was telling whoever it was (maybe it was you) that we're NOT just trading rasho + 17 for JO...you must account for TJ considering he was one of our better scorers. hence we won't be getting JO's points for free, or even just minus Rasho's...as the original poster aluded to. not factoring in TJ in the deal and his stats just b/c calderon will not take his minutes, doesnt make sense really since jose doesnt score nearly as much as TJ does.

and IMO...and i think a lot of the more knowledgable posters would agree...expecting JO to avg 18 here would be on the optimistic end.

[tnugget]

my thang is
three way clone parker/moon/kapono into a hybrid of a player that combines all of their best attributes
call him parmoonpono
basically what you have is
-parker's floor general leadership and basketball iq plus good defense
-moon's insane hops and atheticism and ability to jump from beyond the free throw line
-kapono's sweet stoke and ability to stroke it on demand
i think that parmoonpono would rival kobe bryant for mvp honors...
IF THIS WERE POSSIBLE, ****!

[Boogie!]

my thang is
three way clone parker/moon/kapono into a hybrid of a player that combines all of their best attributes
call him parmoonpono
basically what you have is
-parker's floor general leadership and basketball iq plus good defense
-moon's insane hops and atheticism and ability to jump from beyond the free throw line
-kapono's sweet stoke and ability to stroke it on demand
i think that parmoonpono would rival kobe bryant for mvp honors...
IF THIS WERE POSSIBLE, ****!

what's sad is that even when you combine all three of them, you still don't have good handles and the ability to create shots, which is really what we need out of the wing position.

[tnugget]

my thang is
three way clone parker/moon/kapono into a hybrid of a player that combines all of their best attributes
call him parmoonpono
basically what you have is
-parker's floor general leadership and basketball iq plus good defense
-moon's insane hops and atheticism and ability to jump from beyond the free throw line
-kapono's sweet stoke and ability to stroke it on demand
i think that parmoonpono would rival kobe bryant for mvp honors...
IF THIS WERE POSSIBLE, ****!

what's sad is that even when you combine all three of them, you still don't have good handles and the ability to create shots, which is really what we need out of the wing position.

lawl, this is true. It is actually quite sad..

[Uros Slowcar]

Once again, If Bargnani was and is so insignificant now, because the Raptors acquired JO, then they might as well cancel all of Bargnani's summer plans with the workouts, training, and camps. Who cares right???

My point is that 08/09 season does not depend on Bargnani's play. He was a massive liabilty last year, and going into this season relying on him to shoulder the load at C is not going to happen. You said "Bargnani has GOT TO BE a contributor this upcoming season otherwise the raptors are in big trouble". Thats not true.

[cdel00]

mine with him WAS, *because* he may have been the same poster who was trying to tell me moon and ap are better than maggette...

I am the one who made the claim about Moon being better than Maggette and I still believe it. I use no aliases and have nothing to gain or lose by posting on here. I simply enjoy it.

I also invited you to provide stats and explain why you thought Maggs was a better contributer than Moon was and I am still waiting for those. I've explained to you why I think Moon is better at SF than Maggs on the RAPTORS - much more efficient scorer, much better defender, less turn over prone, creates more oppurtunities through blocks, steals and offensie rebounds, doesn't need a high volume of shots to be effective, fits better with Sam as coach, etc.

I also explained that AP was the best 2G in league at making the entry pass to the low post and is deadly from 3, has a nice pull up jumper and is a natural team leader.

You simply dismissed the idea and continued discussing your ideas with other posters. Quite well I might add as your arguments have merit and are delivered within reason.

Furthermore I invite you visit the Clippers board and judge their rather luke warm reaction to Maggette leaving some are actually quite happy to see him go even though they got nothing in return.

Anyways, I have enjoyed the fairly well thought arguments on both sides of the discussion and have enjoyed reading your posts so thank you for contributing in a respectable and well thought out manner.