Stat of the day:Raptors rebounding in the last 5 games

Avenger · Post #1 » by **Avenger** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:42 pm

copied this from another forum(all credit to that poster), simply further proof that oneal has not only not improved our rebounding but probably made it worse. We were one of the best (4th) defensive rebounding teams in the league last year but dropped to 28th with Mr.Oneal

the stat is pretty simple to follow, DRB% is how much percent of opponent miss shots we pick up. ORB% is how percent of our own missed shots we pick up

Code: Select all

Split             ORB%                   DRB%
2006-7 Season     .222 (30th)            .745 (8th)
2007-8 Season     .234 (25th)            .751 (4th)
2008-9 Season     .225 (29th)            .716 (27th)
Last 5 games      .229                   .746

MikeM · Post #2 » by **MikeM** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:44 pm

Bargnani boxes his man out into the third row, this is why we grab more defensive rebounds. It's almost silly how he boxes his man out before the other team even shoots it.

EventHorizon · Post #3 » by **EventHorizon** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:47 pm

The team is more relaxed when Oneal is in the game and don't battle or boards. When he is not, everyone contributes and folks like Parker and Graham put up 6 rebounds or more.

Hendrix · Post #4 » by **Hendrix** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:50 pm

5 game sample size is pretty crappy to draw conclusions from when we're talking about .035% being the difference from the top of the league, and the bottom of the league imo.

Also there's a slew of reasons why we sucked at rebounding for the majority of the season so far, the least of which have to do with J.O.

Post #5 » by **supersub15** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:50 pm

The drop in DRB is due mostly to our defensive philosphy whereby we ALWAYS switch on pick-and-roll. How many times have you seen Bosh guarding the PG out on the perimeter? Unfortunately, our wings (Parker and Kapono) are among the worst rebounders in the league at their position and Moon took about 20 games before he became assertive again on the boards. Add in the Bargnani experience at SF, and there you have it.

O'Neal has nothing to do with it.

~ TeRRoR SquaD ~ · Post #6 » by **~ TeRRoR SquaD ~** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:51 pm

I dont know if we can outright blame it all on JO, we're simply makin shats while the other team is not.

Korr · Post #7 » by **Korr** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:51 pm

This is why Andrea's relatively low rebounding number (for a 5) should never be an issue. Dude does a great job of boxing out his man, which usually is the other team's best rebounder.

When we're able to neutralize the rebounding of guys like Yao and Dwight, our rebounding numbers as a team is gonna go up.

tmoney34 · Post #8 » by **tmoney34** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:51 pm

MikeM wrote:Bargnani boxes his man out into the third row, this is why we grab more defensive rebounds. It's almost silly how he boxes his man out before the other team even shoots it.

This is definitely one of the things I love about how Bargs is playing right now. He makes a huge effort to make sure his man can't get to the glass. I know yesterday Washington had about 10 offensive boards but 2 or 3 of those came in one play and were all long rebounds.

Avenger · Post #9 » by **Avenger** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:52 pm

Hendrix wrote:5 game sample size is pretty crappy to draw conclusions from when we're talking about .035% being the difference from the top of the league, and the bottom of the league imo.

Also there's a slew of reasons why we sucked at rebounding for the majority of the season so far, the least of which have to do with J.O.

its not just 5 games, we dropped 24 spots in the Defensive rebounding column this season compared to last season. We were a better rebounding team with Rasho and Bargnani than we are with oneal, its pretty obvious. Sure, losing Delfino hurts a little bit but he doesn't account for the unbelievable drop.

Avenger · Post #10 » by **Avenger** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:54 pm

~ TeRRoR SquaD ~ wrote:I dont know if we can outright blame it all on JO, we're simply makin shats while the other team is not.

this stat neutralizes that effect, we are only counting the ones that the opponent and our team misses

MEDIC · Post #11 » by **MEDIC** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 6:56 pm

MikeM wrote:Bargnani boxes his man out into the third row, this is why we grab more defensive rebounds. It's almost silly how he boxes his man out before the other team even shoots it.

Yup. That's why you don't see the rebounding stats from him. He is focusing primarily on making sure the opposing C does not get the rebound, which in turn prevents him from getting the rebound. I don't mind this approach. As long as we are competitive in the rebounding department. Maybe eventually he will learn to do both.

Anyone recall what Rasho did when it came to defensive rebounding (he didn't have high rebounding #'s for a C either)? Maybe Bargs picked up this strategy from him?

MEDIC · Post #12 » by **MEDIC** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:01 pm

supersub15 wrote:The drop in DRB is due mostly to our defensive philosphy whereby we ALWAYS switch on pick-and-roll. How many times have you seen Bosh guarding the PG out on the perimeter? Unfortunately, our wings (Parker and Kapono) are among the worst rebounders in the league at their position and Moon took about 20 games before he became assertive again on the boards. Add in the Bargnani experience at SF, and there you have it.

O'Neal has nothing to do with it.

I don't think anyone is blaming O'Neal specifically.

For whatever reason there is a lot of standing around out there when JO is on the floor. Almost like the rest of the team isn't sure what they are supposed to be doing. One thing that has to be remembered is that a lot of our players have Euro basketball background. This half court, post player, hold on to the ball style generally isn't played there. Everyone is involved.

I_Like_Dirt · Post #13 » by **I_Like_Dirt** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:04 pm

Why focus on the last 5 games instead of the last 8? In the 3 games before the last 5 the Raptors managed to outrebound the opposition twice (once by 10 and once by 12) and battle one of the best rebounding teams in the league (Portland) to the point where they only lost the battle on the boards 40 to 36. Why are we throwing that data out?

Hendrix · Post #14 » by **Hendrix** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:05 pm

Avenger wrote:
Hendrix wrote:5 game sample size is pretty crappy to draw conclusions from when we're talking about .035% being the difference from the top of the league, and the bottom of the league imo.

Also there's a slew of reasons why we sucked at rebounding for the majority of the season so far, the least of which have to do with J.O.

its not just 5 games, we dropped 24 spots in the Defensive rebounding column this season compared to last season. We were a better rebounding team with Rasho and Bargnani than we are with oneal, its pretty obvious. Sure, losing Delfino hurts a little bit but he doesn't account for the unbelievable drop.

Our defensive physoliphy has been terrible from a defensive rebounding standpoint for the majority of the year, and it wasnt in prior years.

At the start of the year under Smitch we were funneling to the middle where our bigs were constantly out of position becuase they had to help. Our perimiter defence has been terrible which our bigs have had to help, and we were switching a ton so our bigs were out on the perimiter while smaller dudes were trying to reboundd vs. bigs.

Then under Triano we started forcing baseline, but we were switching even more then originally. Which again ends up having smalls gaurding bigs, and isn't good for defensive rebounding.

I have only been able to watch a few games latley because of TSN2 and the holidays, but lately it does look like Bosh (and most of our bigs) have been doing an excellent job at hedging on picks and recovering with good team defence, and Rokmon has done an excellent job fighting through screens where before we'de just switch. These things have a lot more to do with DRB then J.O imo.

Post #15 » by **supersub15** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:06 pm

MEDIC wrote:I don't think anyone is blaming O'Neal specifically.

For whatever reason there is a lot of standing around out there when JO is on the floor. Almost like the rest of the team isn't sure what they are supposed to be doing. One thing that has to be remembered is that a lot of our players have Euro basketball background. This half court, post player, hold on to the ball style generally isn't played there. Everyone is involved.

What's standing around on offense has got to do with defensive rebounding?

Triano has already said it that our wings need to help our bigs in rebounding, because the latter are getting pulled away from the basket on switches. It's pretty simple: When O'Neal and Bosh are 15 feet away from the basket, somebody else has to box out and pick up the rebound.

Avenger · Post #16 » by **Avenger** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:08 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:Why focus on the last 5 games instead of the last 8? In the 3 games before the last 5 the Raptors managed to outrebound the opposition twice (once by 10 and once by 12) and battle one of the best rebounding teams in the league (Portland) to the point where they only lost the battle on the boards 40 to 36. Why are we throwing that data out?

it was to counter two things that people like to bring up a lot

This team is crap at rebounding without JO---> not true, we were #4 in Defensive Rebounding last year and #27 this year(29 prior to his injury)
With Andrea Bargnani at the 5, we rebound like crap--->not true, our defensive rebounding is back to last year's level and opposing centers haven't really gone off on the boards

doogie88 · Post #17 » by **doogie88** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:09 pm

Can someone post stats for DRB since Triano took over? Or I guess a game or two after he took over.
Would be interesting to see if that has a part in the numbers over teh last 5 days too, considering our defense now crowds the paint, you'd expect more RBs.

CrookedJ · Post #18 » by **CrookedJ** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:10 pm

I think like the defensive improvement, it has more to do with Calderon being out. Less defensive collapse to stop penetration = everyone able to stay with their man and box them out. Would also explain why the improvement is only on the defensive glass.

Phenomenologist · Post #19 » by **Phenomenologist** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:13 pm

MikeM wrote:Bargnani boxes his man out into the third row, this is why we grab more defensive rebounds. It's almost silly how he boxes his man out before the other team even shoots it.

Ok, so I'm not the only one who notices this. It's almost as though he doesn't care at all about actually collecting the board. He just makes sure that there's sufficient space for his teammates to grab it. Maybe as he continues to adapt to his new girth, he'll start being capable of both boxing out and actually grabbing the rebound.

MEDIC · Post #20 » by **MEDIC** » Thu Jan 8, 2009 7:15 pm

supersub15 wrote:
MEDIC wrote:I don't think anyone is blaming O'Neal specifically.

For whatever reason there is a lot of standing around out there when JO is on the floor. Almost like the rest of the team isn't sure what they are supposed to be doing. One thing that has to be remembered is that a lot of our players have Euro basketball background. This half court, post player, hold on to the ball style generally isn't played there. Everyone is involved.

What's standing around on offense has got to do with defensive rebounding?

Triano has already said it that our wings need to help our bigs in rebounding, because the latter are getting pulled away from the basket on switches. It's pretty simple: When O'Neal and Bosh are 15 feet away from the basket, somebody else has to box out and pick up the rebound.

I have noticed our wings standing around, expecting that JO or Bosh will get the rebound. (instead of just being aggressive & just going after it)