Our recent success shows NOTHING about Calderon or JO!

[KG4oscar]

How can you say we don't need Calderon or JO ,or that they are overrated based off the examples of a couple of games we won recently.

I KNOW we beat some good teams, but we also barely beat washington, and Memphis wasn't pretty until the end of the third.

Calderon is NOT overrated. JO should not be traded.

Let's wait and see what happens when they come back before you accuse and call them out on things when they AREN"T EVEN PLAYING


That is all.

[LittleOzzy]

In my opinion Calderon should start when he returns but JO should come off the bench. I know it will never happen, but Bargnani has earned his minutes and should be allowed to continue as the starting center.

Bargnani at the 3 didn't work, Bargnani coming off the bench didn't work... so let the big fella start.

[Raps in 4]

I'm not saying they're overrated at all. JO is still a great player, but I feel we need a wing more than a back-up big, so trading him seems like the best option. And Calderon was never overrated, I can't wait for him to come back.

[Volcano]

It seems like there's more movement on offense with JO out. JO's more suited to a slow, ugly, half-court game..I don't think JO suits our system

[emfive]

In my opinion Calderon should start when he returns but JO should come off the bench. I know it will never happen, but Bargnani has earned his minutes and should be allowed to continue as the starting center.

Bargnani at the 3 didn't work, Bargnani coming off the bench didn't work... so let the big fella start.

I feel that JO is a detriment to the success of the team long term and short term. Yet you are correct. There is a standard out there in sport that a starter should not loose his spot because of injury and I feel it is the correct thing to do considering his history in the league as well. I will say though that it will be very interesting when he returns as to how the team performs. I will especially be interested to guage how his insertion in the lineup impacts our franchise guy.

[Cassius]

JO and Calderon are great players playing in a system that makes them both look bad.

Bosh and Bargs are gazelles on the break, Roko and Solomon can't handle full court pressure and no one else other than Hump can create their own shot in the half court. We're a running team to the core.

JO and Jose are half-court players to the tee. Both of them would be well served with a creative wing player playing alongside them and both are exposed as flawed players without one.

[TGM]

People who blame Calderon as the reason we were losing early in the season are crazy. Think about how many games he won for us last year when Ford was out. Calderon will only make us stronger.

The good thing about him be out for several games is that now Roko and Solomon seem to have finally adjusted to the nba tempo and should now give us much better off the bench performance. Prior to Calderon going out Will and Roko played bits and pieces and never got into the NBA rythym.

As for JO, I think he is a solid player, but just not a good fit for our team. I wouldn't blame him for losses, but he definitely makes us a pure half court team, which we don't seem to do as well.

Trianos fast past half court offenses requires shooters and thats what Bosh and Bargs can do.

Time to move JO and add more depth. I would love to see JO moved to the Bulls for Gooden, Hughes and a pick.

[MEDIC]

...

[Grizzled]

People who blame Calderon as the reason we were losing early in the season are crazy. Think about how many games he won for us last year when Ford was out. Calderon will only make us stronger.

The good thing about him be out for several games is that now Roko and Solomon seem to have finally adjusted to the nba tempo and should now give us much better off the bench performance. Prior to Calderon going out Will and Roko played bits and pieces and never got into the NBA rythym.

As for JO, I think he is a solid player, but just not a good fit for our team. I wouldn't blame him for losses, but he definitely makes us a pure half court team, which we don't seem to do as well.

Trianos fast past half court offenses requires shooters and thats what Bosh and Bargs can do.

Time to move JO and add more depth. I would love to see JO moved to the Bulls for Gooden, Hughes and a pick.

It's not about being crazy, and there is certainly nothing factual about it either. It's about having ulterior motives, and about trying to recruit 14 year olds into their agenda of hate.

[MEDIC]

JO and Calderon are great players playing in a system that makes them both look bad.

Bosh and Bargs are gazelles on the break, Roko and Solomon can't handle full court pressure and no one else other than Hump can create their own shot in the half court. We're a running team to the core.

JO and Jose are half-court players to the tee. Both of them would be well served with a creative wing player playing alongside them and both are exposed as flawed players without one.

I think there is "some" substance to what you are saying. Answer:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2429~1711~1981~3028~2806~615&teams=28~28~28~28~4~4&te=&cash=

[Grizzled]

A couple of facts about Calderon.

He has the second highest + rating of any of our regular players.
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809TOR.HTM

His PER is 4.6 higher than his opponents' PER.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08TOR1.HTM#bypos

[Lord Eder]

I think one thing it does show is that Chris Bosh is just THAT good. And when both our bigs are tearing it up it's not hard to rack up the assists.

NOT a knock on Calderon, more just praise for the efficiency of the big(s) on this team.

[Lord Eder]

I also don't think the success proves just how terrible Calderon is on defence.

Yeah, he's bad and at times looked like a chair on D. But 1) I honestly think he played as bad as he did becuase the injury and 2) The team is playing into JT's system lately. I noticed yesterday that they were overloading the strong side of the ball and communicating well enough to rotate over to the weak side if the ball found it's way there. The Lakers play a similar defensive style to this I think.

[rtcaino]

We'll see what happens when they come back.

I look forward to seeing whether Calderon, Bosh and Bargs can establish an effective three man game. Bosh and Bargs were playing really well with Solomon in that recent game. They hit 5 shots in a row, including nice passing by Bosh from down low, and 3's from both Bargs and Solomon. If Bargs continues to shoot efficiently, and Calderon continues to shoot as he always has, these guys could be very sick. (Especially if BC is able to add in some quality talent from the 2 and 3 spots.)

However, it is always possible that Bargs reverts to shooting percentages that NBA players typically shoot (below 60% from 3) and Calderon gets blamed.

[MEDIC]

I am starting to buy into the theory that THIS team does not necessarily need a top shelf point guard to be effective. Our success relies on ALL players passing the ball effectively & providing opportunities for each other.

All we really need the PG to do is dribble the ball up the court without losing it, hit open jump shots, be able to pass the ball quickly up the floor for fast break points & play good defense.

This season, Calderon has shown 2/4 of the said criteria.

Having said that, you can never replace what Calderon brings as a teammate/ in the locker room & the passion he has on the floor. He is a motivator.

[Lord Eder]

However, it is always possible that Bargs reverts to shooting percentages that NBA players typically shoot (below 60% from 3) and Calderon gets blamed.

Of course

But even if he drops his 3p% down to just over 40% he'll still be playing very effectively. Someone did the math the other day and I think the number was 18 points. on 50% and 40% shooting.

Some people will blame Calderon, I'm sure, but it's not warranted. Bargnani will cool off sooner or later. As long as he can maintain good percentage he'll be alright.

[timdunkit]

In my opinion Calderon should start when he returns but JO should come off the bench. I know it will never happen, but Bargnani has earned his minutes and should be allowed to continue as the starting center.

Bargnani at the 3 didn't work, Bargnani coming off the bench didn't work... so let the big fella start.

In the long run, I think it will be better for JO to come of the bench. I know people say "who wants 23 mill on the bench". Well first, he isnt in the long term plans of the team. Second, if he comes of the bench he will face easier competition and will actually have the ball run through him instead of competing with Bosh (kind of like Manu, instead of been a spot up shooter for parker and Duncan, he is the man when he comes of the bench). Facing easier comptition will probably liighten the load he carries and will give him less chance of getting injury (especially with his weak knees). Of course, it all depends if he is willing to do it? That is another story we have to wait to see if it happens ....

[Grizzled]

I am starting to buy into the theory that THIS team does not necessarily need a top shelf point guard to be effective. Our success relies on ALL players passing the ball effectively & providing opportunities for each other.

All we really need the PG to do is dribble the ball up the court without losing it, hit open jump shots, be able to pass the ball quickly up the floor for fast break points & play good defense.

This season, Calderon has shown 2/4 of the said criteria.

Having said that, you can never replace what Calderon brings as a teammate/ in the locker room & the passion he has on the floor. He is a motivator.

It's important to note that he's arguably the best in the league at the first 2, and I don't think he's as bad as even some of the objective observers claim at the latter two. I also think he can improve on the latter 2. Is he an all-star? Not yet, but he's a very good PG who is still only in his first season as a full time starter.

[lemondrop]

I think our recent success shows about Jose than it does JO but im not about to beat a drum about it. Jose Calderon is a steady solid pg but lets face it there is holes in his game that severely hampered us from Feburary of last year all the way through this season. Part of that is his lack of creavitiy, lack of vision on the fast break, his defence which is key for a pg because it is a teams first line of defence and his inability to get people easy buckets and involve others who need to be involved.

[Grizzled]

I think our recent success shows about Jose than it does JO but im not about to beat a drum about it. Jose Calderon is a steady solid pg but lets face it there is holes in his game that severely hampered us from Feburary of last year all the way through this season. Part of that is his lack of creavitiy, lack of vision on the fast break, his defence which is key for a pg because it is a teams first line of defence and his inability to get people easy buckets and involve others who need to be involved.

Actually we had our best record last year when Jose was our starter. And it's his ability to make smart plays, and perhaps more importantly his ability not to make dumb plays, that has helped us greatly. Some of the bone head plays Solomon has made recently has given us all flashbacks to bad TJ Ford memories I'm sure. Jose's solid play can perhaps be sometimes overlooked, but it just takes a few stupid plays by our backups to make you remember just how good Jose is.

(That said, I think it's important to add that Solomon has played pretty well overall during his few games as a starter. I can now see what BC saw in him, and if it's possible for a 30 year old player to learn to make better decisions and cut down on his mistakes, and make better decisions about when to shoot and when to pass, I think Solomon could well survive in the NBA past this year.)