*Poll* If this is the real Bargs...

[bane_dd]

1. No, he's not. He's lanky and hobbles around. Have you seen him play this season? And how can you compare him to Amare? Amare has already proved that he's still an elite big man after his surgeries.

2. I don't even know where to begin. Bargnani is nowhere close to "the best ball handler of the big men in the league". He's not even the best ball handling big man ON HIS OWN TEAM. And you honestly believe he's better than Okur in every aspect of the game??? Do you watch any games other than the ones that the Raptors are in? Jeez man....

1. Oden is hobbling around this season because he is just coming back from a knee surgery and had a high ankle sprain at the beginning of the season. If you watched Oden play at Oklahoma than you would know what I'm saying. Oden is both strong and agile, particularly given his size.

2. Bargnani IS certainly the best ball handler among the big men on this team. Between him, Bosh, JO, Hump and Jake, please tell me who is a better ball handler? And please don't tell me that Chris "Los Manos" Bosh is it. As far as watching games other than Raptors, I am POSITIVE that I watch more games than you as I have LeaguePass and usually watch at least one complete game every day. Not to mention that I am likely older than you and have been watching NBA since the 1979-80 season.

[appel]

1. No, he's not. He's lanky and hobbles around. Have you seen him play this season? And how can you compare him to Amare? Amare has already proved that he's still an elite big man after his surgeries.

Ok
Tell me about Amare's defense
Six year in NBA...

Sorry I must be going crazy. I don't remember saying anything about Amare's defense. Or his offense for that matter. In fact, I didn't even bring him up! I did scoff at the other guy comparing him to Oden with respect to having microfacture surgeries though. I don't see how that has anything to do with Amare's defense....

Sorry i must be stupid
You told "Have you see him play this season?"
I was thinking he was a basketball player, playing defense and offense too
But maybe Amare is a soccer player and heìs playing only offense

[depaso+]

The "real" Bargs (if you are referring to the past 9 games or whatever it is) will never be a 50% shooter. Bargs is a shooter, and will always be a streaky player. However if he can be a 21-8-2 blocks, 46%,38% kind of guy in his prime(alongside Bosh) then I'd be happy. I am convinced in order for Andrea to be successful he will need to be a mass shooter.

[dillio]

Sorry i must be stupid
You told "Have you see him play this season?"
I was thinking he was a basketball player, playing defense and offense too
But maybe Amare is a soccer player and heìs playing only offense

I think your first statement is correct.
I was referring to Oden. NOT Amare. Read what I wrote again and try to understand the context. I was implying that Oden is not as agile and strong as the guy made him sound when I asked "have you seen him play?". What does that question have to do with Amare's defense? I'm guessing english isn't your first language?

[dillio]

1. Oden is hobbling around this season because he is just coming back from a knee surgery and had a high ankle sprain at the beginning of the season. If you watched Oden play at Oklahoma than you would know what I'm saying. Oden is both strong and agile, particularly given his size.

2. Bargnani IS certainly the best ball handler among the big men on this team. Between him, Bosh, JO, Hump and Jake, please tell me who is a better ball handler? And please don't tell me that Chris "Los Manos" Bosh is it. As far as watching games other than Raptors, I am POSITIVE that I watch more games than you as I have LeaguePass and usually watch at least one complete game every day. Not to mention that I am likely older than you and have been watching NBA since the 1979-80 season.

1. My argument is that Oden may well be damaged goods. He killed it in college and he WAS stronger and more agile than a lot of COLLEGE bigs, but compared with NBA bigs? Not so sure about that..
Also he didn't play at Oklahoma... he played at Ohio State. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant Ohio...

2. Bosh is a much better ball handler than Bargnani. Bargnani is a better shooter than Bosh, but there's no way in hell he's a better ball handler. I can't believe you watch that many basketball games and can say that Bargnani might be "the best ball handling big man in the league". That's perposterous.

[bane_dd]

1. My argument is that Oden may well be damaged goods. He killed it in college and he WAS stronger and more agile than a lot of COLLEGE bigs, but compared with NBA bigs? Not so sure about that..
Also he didn't play at Oklahoma... he played at Ohio State. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant Ohio...

2. Bosh is a much better ball handler than Bargnani. Bargnani is a better shooter than Bosh, but there's no way in hell he's a better ball handler. I can't believe you watch that many basketball games and can say that Bargnani might be "the best ball handling big man in the league". That's perposterous.

My bad, I meant to write Ohio but it came out as Oklahoma. And I don't dispute that Oden may be damaged goods (if you go back to my first post in this thread you will see that I state that the jury is still out on that) but given good health, Oden is quite strong and athletic, regardless of his uneven legs.

And Bosh is not as good a ball handler as Bargnani. Watch closely, Bargnani is actually very good at putting the ball on the floor even when he is not driving. Being an excellent ball handler does not only involve going to the hoop (which Bosh does a lot of but he rarely uses more than one dribble doing so) but also some secondary ball handling duties. Bargnani is very comfortable dribbling the ball around and passing it, something that Bosh can do on occasion but is not very good at doing. Bargnani also uses his dribble to create space for his shot often, where Bosh usually relies on jab steps and ball/head fakes.

And I disagree with you that Bargnani is a better shooter than Bosh. Bosh is very good from up close to about 20 feet out, Bargnani prefers mid to long range shots but at best they are about equal in terms of pure shooting talent. One thing I notice is that Bargnani does not get phased under pressure, he makes shots/free throws with game on the line more regularly than anyone else on the team.

[dillio]

We'll agree to disagree then. Maybe it's just me, but every time Bargs puts the ball on the floor I hold my breath. And I agree that he makes shots under pressure, but I disagree about free throws. I've seen him brick several in the 2 games prior to yesterday's (I missed yesterday's as I'm out of town). He even missed 2 in a row in Sunday's game (I believe). Bosh rarely misses free throws in the clutch, but he does have a tendency of missing his jumpers.

In terms of ball handling, I'll always remember that game Bosh had against KG's Timberwolves a few years back, where on one play, he had KG outside the 3-pt line, drove past him (essentially beating him off the dribble) and finished with a reverse layup. I can't see Bargs ever having the ability to beat anyone off the dribble. The only time his drive is effective is when his man falls for a fake and there aren't too many defenders in front of him to take charges/steal the ball. I'll keep watching, but I do notice Bargs putting his head down and awkwardly driving into traffic which is what's making me very leary to admit that his ball handling is that great. He might just look awkward because he's so damn tall, but who knows.

[raptor21_85]

Roy would've been better, just because he would've fit better in this team. But, I don't know, Roy went to a losser team, while Bargs went to division Champion team.

[raptor21_85]

I also want to say that if Bargs gets even better, he will be a good example for other star players to come to play to TO, just because Bargs said he likes a lot Canada and maybe he wants to play in toronto his whole career.

[COY0607]

roy is a superstar in the making........this guy is going to be a pierce type player

[Carnage]

No, as Roy would be the better player. Obviously, hindsight is 20/20 and no at the time pictured Roy to be this good and on track to be a Tier 1 Superstar in this league, but you cannot discount at it, and as such, would be the first pick if the draft was re-done.

As for Bargs, are these past 9 games a real sign or a tease? If these are a real sign, then fantastic. Although I'd wager that he'd never be Top 5 center, making a few all-star teams is still better than nothing (although Rudy Gay will probably make about the same if not more all-star teams).

[JYD]

IF this is the real Bargs, and it's starting to look like it is, Roy is the only one I might consider over him now. Definitely not Aldridge, and not Gay (who I and just about everyone else here would have swapped Bargs for in an instant last month).

The Bargs we've seen in the last few weeks is what we were hoping for all along. A guy who can defend C and create a lot of offense and space on the other end.

Personally, at 2006 draft time, I wanted Bargs provided he turned out to be a C. It's hard not to pass up a very good offensive player who can play C.

Then starting last offseason, I started thinking we should shop him. Not for nothing, but with JO coming in I was hoping for something like Bargs for Jefferson. Because he really looked like he was not going to be a 5..maybe succeed as a 4 somewhere else but not a 5.

Now, he looks like a 5. He looks so much more comfortable rebounding the ball now it's unbelievable. Now he's just a competent rebounder for C, but he's made incredible strides, as well as with all aspects of his defense. And we're using him properly on offense now...playing to his strength on the perimeter playing off Bosh in the post, and trying to take advantage in the post with him on smaller defenders.

Again, if this is the real thing now, his numbers *right now* make him an incredibly valuable player. Imagine we get a really good defensive 3 to help him and Bosh out, and/or a wing who can create and shoot. Very tough team to play.

It goes to show how much us impatient fans know vs. a GM. Like BC mentioned a little while ago when everyone was crapping on Bargs, fans don't know the whole story of what's going on with the players. Obviously something has clicked (maybe Triano has some impact, maybe not), and that is great for us. I couldn't be happier to be wrong about bailing on him early.

So yes, if this is the real Bargs (a 20/7 C who defends well and create matchup nightmares next to Bosh), he is absolutely worth that pick, and the only guy arguably worthy going ahead of him is Roy. Gay is up there but doesn't have the value of a C putting up the same offensive stats.

[Fast_Feets]

I would agree with one thing is that Bargs catches the ball and drives to the hoop when he is in the right position. Bosh gets the ball too often in a position where he is on the block and then sits on it and thinks what he should do. If he were more able to just get the ball on the move and and make that quick step to the hoop he would be more effective.

[JD225]

Barg's great play is a direct result of a hot 3 point shooting streak. 61-68% shooting from three is a hot shooting streak. We have seen it from players like Parker and Kapono (in the playoffs).

So excuse me if I'm a little skeptical.

[appel]

I think your first statement is correct.
I was referring to Oden. NOT Amare. Read what I wrote again and try to understand the context. I was implying that Oden is not as agile and strong as the guy made him sound when I asked "have you seen him play?". What does that question have to do with Amare's defense? I'm guessing english isn't your first language?

Ok..Again then,,,

Amare has already proved that he's still an elite big man after his surgeries.

Tell me about Amare's defense

p.s. Yes Englis isn't my first language, is the third because i've never learned
Now tell me how many languages you can write without a translator

[Death Knight]

Barg's great play is a direct result of a hot 3 point shooting streak. 61-68% shooting from three is a hot shooting streak. We have seen it from players like Parker and Kapono (in the playoffs).

So excuse me if I'm a little skeptical.

But during the 8 games Bargnani is shooting 49% from 2s (37-75). That's not too bad. Even if his 3pt shooting drops down and he doesn't score 20+ anymore, 16-18 pts is still quite reasonable. If you're expecting Bargnani to go back to single digits in scoring again (9 or less), then I highly doubt it.

[josejosejose]

Bargs has obviously gotten a lot better but I don't think he is as good a ball handler as Bosh is quite yet. He is just not as confident yet going to the rim.

On a side note, Bargs should really learn this one move that Bosh does amazingly going both ways:

Bosh takes a hard drible, two steps around opposing player while cradling the ball near his body so he doesnt get it hit away, then finish with a layup or dunk. Many players do this, and I think that if Bargs gets this move down he'll get a lot better and more confident going to the rim.

The main part being the cradling of the ball, kind of like a football player would. Bosh does this and just charges into the paint, its great!

[bane_dd]

Bargs has obviously gotten a lot better but I don't think he is as good a ball handler as Bosh is quite yet. He is just not as confident yet going to the rim.

On a side note, Bargs should really learn this one move that Bosh does amazingly going both ways:

Bosh takes a hard drible, two steps around opposing player while cradling the ball near his body so he doesnt get it hit away, then finish with a layup or dunk. Many players do this, and I think that if Bargs gets this move down he'll get a lot better and more confident going to the rim.

The main part being the cradling of the ball, kind of like a football player would. Bosh does this and just charges into the paint, its great!

Once again, there was no suggestion that Bargnani can drive to the hoop as effectively as Bosh. But that is an entirely different skill from ball handling. Notice you said Bosh "takes a hard dribble". It's a hard dribble because he is not as smooth a ball handler and it is only one dribble because that's all he needs to create space.

Bargnani, on the other hand, frequently takes more than one dribble on the perimeter trying to create separation for himself. He can dribble with either hand, put the ball between his legs, attempt crossovers and shoulder fakes while dribbling the ball. It may look somewhat clumsy but keep in mind that he is 7' tall. The distance between his hand and the ground is far greater than than of , say, Chris Paul or Jose Calderon. This is also the main reason smaller guys often strip him of the ball by reaching in.

You do bring up a very valid point, however. The move you are referring to with Bosh is the one where he tucks the ball, running back-style and takes it to the hoop. Bargnani needs to learn to protect the ball better on his drives and his shot fakes. Once he learns to do that, he can learn to be more patient in the low post because he will not fear the opponent stripping the ball from him. Once he learns a few basic post moves and patience, he could be very effective down low (more so than JO) because his game is a lot more versatile. He can pass effectively, he can shoot jump shots and he is even adding a short jump hook to his arsenal.

Bargnani is very skilled for a player his size. This is what Colangelo originally saw in him. While it has taken some time, he has not reached his full potential yet and will likely get better in the next couple of offseasons. Right on track for Colangelo's five year assessment, no? It's easy for all of us to play backseat GMs with the benefit of hindsight. But there is a reason why Colangelo gets paid the big bucks to do his job.

[josejosejose]

You're right by saying that Bargs is a good dribbler, but he is by no means able to consistently take his man one on one while dribbling like bosh, nevermind two on one, which bosh does occasionally. Ball handling is not just how well you can dribble with either hand, between the legs, or something like that... but also how you protect the ball for other players, and your decision making as you dribble.

As of now, Bargnani's has a quick first step and dribble away from the initial defender, but he lacks the body and ball control to finish if there is help. That is why it is key he learnt how to dribble and dish the ball out, which he now does.

In a previous post I mentioned Bosh's "hard dribble". This though is only a small part of bosh's game. Bosh often uses more than one dribble, spins, head fakes etc. to lead to his shot. Not only that but his baskets come from shots, floaters, drives, fadeaways, etc.. And he often does this when the whole defence is focused on him, scoring 25+ points a game. I just thought that the "hard dribble" would be a nice addition to add to the growing skills of andrea from the chris bosh playbook.

Bargs is tall of course, but Bosh is not far behind him... really they are on the same playing field height wise.

I think Bargs could get to another level with his dribbling, it's already a lot better than the last couple years. I've seen him on a few drives able to keep his head up while dribbling (I was very impressed), but he does look down still on occasion.

I think the main thing that hinders Bargnani is that he dribbles so high from the ground, that is why he has to look at the ball constantly. If you watch Bosh dribble, he stays quite close to the ground, thereby minimizing possible errors by decreasing the time the ball is out of his hands. This allows Bosh to focus more on the defence than the ball in his hands.

[dillio]

I think your first statement is correct.
I was referring to Oden. NOT Amare. Read what I wrote again and try to understand the context. I was implying that Oden is not as agile and strong as the guy made him sound when I asked "have you seen him play?". What does that question have to do with Amare's defense? I'm guessing english isn't your first language?

Ok..Again then,,,

Amare has already proved that he's still an elite big man after his surgeries.

Tell me about Amare's defense

p.s. Yes Englis isn't my first language, is the third because i've never learned
Now tell me how many languages you can write without a translator

I'm fluent in 2, but at least I can UNDERSTAND both of them. You seem to really be struggling to understand a very simple point I made in English. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Bargs conversation and you just keep making the same irrelevent point over and over again.

Amare:
- 03 Rookie of the Year
- 03 All Rookie 1st Team
- 04 All Star Rookie Challenge MVP
- 2 time All-NBA 2nd Team
- 1 time All-NBA 1st Team
- 3 Time NBA All-Star
in 5 years in the league. He never cared much on defense but that has NOTHING to do with his knee surgeries, which is what we were talking about in the first place. This has nothing to do with Bargnani, nobody was comparing him with Bargnani, this thread is about Bargnani. We were talking about knee surgeries (comparing him with Oden). Please go away now.