Reminder: Chris Bosh's average over the first 15 games

[BasketballAbyss]

Look, people need to understand that he put up those numbers because the entire offense that Mitchell ran was designed for Bosh to succeed. Two out of every three plays were horns-up or 1-4 high screen-roll. Bosh got 40 touches a game and was always in a place to score, so he put up sick numbers.

The downside? Every one on the team not named Chris Bosh or Jose Calderon struggled during that time. The offense was too predictable, too set, and did not take into account the abilities of the rest of the team.

It's not a coincidence that Bosh's production decline is coupled with a rise in production by Bargnani, Graham, Moon, O'Neal, and Kapono. Triano's new offense is not all about Bosh, it's about the Raptors.

And how's that working out? We have a worse record than when Smitch was coaching.

And yes perhaps you could say that under Smitch the offense was designed for CB to succeed, however, the fact that he was so efficient and productive has more to say of Chris's skills. Cause if you seriously look at it, during the time that Sam was coaching, CB did not have a usg rating (basically how much he's being used in the offense) than any other superstar in the league. His total shot percentage was also off the charts. That says more about CB's skills than the offense that the team is running IMO.

[Kakapato]

Look, people need to understand that he put up those numbers because the entire offense that Mitchell ran was designed for Bosh to succeed. Two out of every three plays were horns-up or 1-4 high screen-roll. Bosh got 40 touches a game and was always in a place to score, so he put up sick numbers.

The downside? Every one on the team not named Chris Bosh or Jose Calderon struggled during that time. The offense was too predictable, too set, and did not take into account the abilities of the rest of the team.

It's not a coincidence that Bosh's production decline is coupled with a rise in production by Bargnani, Graham, Moon, O'Neal, and Kapono. Triano's new offense is not all about Bosh, it's about the Raptors.

And how's that working out? We have a worse record than when Smitch was coaching.

And yes perhaps you could say that under Smitch the offense was designed for CB to succeed, however, the fact that he was so efficient and productive has more to say of Chris's skills. Cause if you seriously look at it, during the time that Sam was coaching, CB did not have a usg rating (basically how much he's being used in the offense) than any other superstar in the league. His total shot percentage was also off the charts. That says more about CB's skills than the offense that the team is running IMO.

OK, lets take back Smitch...

Anyway where had that system brought you?

I think that NOW we are trying to improve ourself... basketball is a 5v5 game... if you play 1v5 and your ONE is well defended...

[The Journey Man]

One has been thrown under the bus as Bustnani who was gonna be out of the league and one has been hailed as an unquestionable superstar. There IS a difference in expectations and rightfully so.

All some of us are saying is stop going to Bosh in the clutch and stop with this "give the ball to your best player" nonsense in crunch time which has been a giant failure time and time again. Lemme ask you a question, do you actually feel safe with the ball in Bosh's hands when we're lets say down 1 or down 2 or tied?

Bosh's "clutchness" has already been addressed in a thread made by supersub. If everyone could stop drinking their haterade, they could actually read it and understand that Bosh has been pretty clutch for a big man over the past few years

[The Journey Man]

Look, people need to understand that he put up those numbers because the entire offense that Mitchell ran was designed for Bosh to succeed. Two out of every three plays were horns-up or 1-4 high screen-roll. Bosh got 40 touches a game and was always in a place to score, so he put up sick numbers.

The downside? Every one on the team not named Chris Bosh or Jose Calderon struggled during that time. The offense was too predictable, too set, and did not take into account the abilities of the rest of the team.

It's not a coincidence that Bosh's production decline is coupled with a rise in production by Bargnani, Graham, Moon, O'Neal, and Kapono. Triano's new offense is not all about Bosh, it's about the Raptors.

This is ridiculous. He got touches but the entire defense focused on HIM. Double and triple teamed and he still was extremely efficient with a lot of rebounds. And during that stretch of 15 games, we went 8-7.

[_Mantofini_]

One has been thrown under the bus as Bustnani who was gonna be out of the league and one has been hailed as an unquestionable superstar. There IS a difference in expectations and rightfully so.

All some of us are saying is stop going to Bosh in the clutch and stop with this "give the ball to your best player" nonsense in crunch time which has been a giant failure time and time again. Lemme ask you a question, do you actually feel safe with the ball in Bosh's hands when we're lets say down 1 or down 2 or tied?

Depends on the amount of time left. I feel safe if there are 24+ seconds left on the clock. If it's the last shot of the game I think it's a bad idea only because it's easier to stop a big man on one posession than it is to stop a wing since good wing players are able to score from more spots on the court.

If provided with the time, Bosh is great down the stretch. He makes good passes, he attacks and gets to the line. Clutch is more than just taking the last shot. Clutch is turning it on when it counts and, for the most part, CB has done that (excluding the Boston games).

[SuigintouEV]

10.5 RPG

..and countless missed box-outs

1.1 BLK
2.33 AST

Which are pretty bad stats for a big who you got on a max contract.

So basically TC's only argument is that Bosh was scoring a lot, albeit efficiently. We already know that. Him, JO, and Jose were also freezing up our offense into the ugliest garbage i've seen in my life.

[BasketballAbyss]

Look, people need to understand that he put up those numbers because the entire offense that Mitchell ran was designed for Bosh to succeed. Two out of every three plays were horns-up or 1-4 high screen-roll. Bosh got 40 touches a game and was always in a place to score, so he put up sick numbers.

The downside? Every one on the team not named Chris Bosh or Jose Calderon struggled during that time. The offense was too predictable, too set, and did not take into account the abilities of the rest of the team.

It's not a coincidence that Bosh's production decline is coupled with a rise in production by Bargnani, Graham, Moon, O'Neal, and Kapono. Triano's new offense is not all about Bosh, it's about the Raptors.

And how's that working out? We have a worse record than when Smitch was coaching.

And yes perhaps you could say that under Smitch the offense was designed for CB to succeed, however, the fact that he was so efficient and productive has more to say of Chris's skills. Cause if you seriously look at it, during the time that Sam was coaching, CB did not have a usg rating (basically how much he's being used in the offense) than any other superstar in the league. His total shot percentage was also off the charts. That says more about CB's skills than the offense that the team is running IMO.

OK, lets take back Smitch...

Anyway where had that system brought you?

I think that NOW we are trying to improve ourself... basketball is a 5v5 game... if you play 1v5 and your ONE is well defended...

I'm not saying I want Smitch back. I'm just trying to say that a lot of people try to discredit Bosh's numbers by saying that it was the system and not him. I'm saying that it was more his own skillset than the system.

I don't mind what Jay is running but I think that in order for us to become more successful we need to involve Bosh more often than we are now. But instead of increasing the iso plays for him, perhaps we should be freeing him up for midrange jumpers or running more hi low feeds or UCLA cuts. I don't know, anything to get easier baskets. Running the iso plays everytime takes up a lot of energy.

[The Journey Man]

Chris Bosh potential Defensive Player of the Year article: http://www.hooplife.ca/raptorshq/viewHQArticle.php?id=484

Really, just stop the hate.

LMFAO at posting the defensive player of the year article!!! That article may have been relevant when it was written... in the summer! Heck, he even played inspired defense for the first 10 games or so... but since then he's been anything but a defensive force.

Look, I know Chris is still the best talent on the team but to ignore the fact that his level has play has dropped since the first 15 games is just plain dumb. He is NOT the player that started off the season with MVP aspirations. His defense leaves little to be desired... he's late on help and rarely challenges drives.

And sure he gets to the line, but you CAN'T deny that when Chris got the ball at the end of last game that you weren't begging him to drive and get contact! Not a single one of us was sitting there thinking 'fade away, fade away fade away'. It was freaking Joakim Noah for F sakes, he was sure to get a call!

So to be discontent with Bosh's decision making is valid. HE himself was practicing drives at the end of practice yesterday... so to say that we're stupid for doubting Bosh is wrong.

He's a great player... I don't think there's anyway we resign him in 2010... and I think he's overrated. But for now he IS the franchise and our best player.

BTW there's a difference between being critical and hate. I find that more and more people are misusing the term hater these days.

So let me get this straight, a few games of questionable plays made by CB in late game stretches recently cancels out his play in the past 5 years, including MANY clutch plays in 4th?

[Kakapato]

I'm not saying I want Smitch back. I'm just trying to say that a lot of people try to discredit Bosh's numbers by saying that it was the system and not him. I'm saying that it was more his own skillset than the system.

I don't mind what Jay is running but I think that in order for us to become more successful we need to involve Bosh more often than we are now. But instead of increasing the iso plays for him, perhaps we should be freeing him up for midrange jumpers or running more hi low feeds or UCLA cuts. I don't know, anything to get easier baskets. Running the iso plays everytime takes up a lot of energy.

But nobody here say that he's not skilled... CB is a monster!

And I totally agree with you on the second part. No more iso play. Lets play like a team.
I know it's not easy to make everything work, but this is the reason that those coaches are payed millions and we are typing on our keyboard.

@OP... please stop calling posters "haters" when nobody here have screamed "Trade bosh!", "Bosh is useless" ect... if you want to know what's the meaning of hate look at the Bargs' threads of 10 days ago...

[The Journey Man]

10.5 RPG

..and countless missed box-outs

1.1 BLK
2.33 AST

Which are pretty bad stats for a big who you got on a max contract.

So basically TC's only argument is that Bosh was scoring a lot, albeit efficiently. We already know that. Him, JO, and Jose were also freezing up our offense into the ugliest garbage i've seen in my life.

Kevin Garnett:
1.4 BLK
2.66 AST

So KG is pretty bad? Or b/c he has .3 more BLK and .33 more AST he is elevated to average?

Amare:
1.1 BLK
2.2 AST

Karl Malone (during MVP)
0.6 BLK
4.5 AST

at age 24:
0.6 BLK
2.6 AST

Against, please stop drinking the haterade

[Joga_Bonito]

I think its okay to criticize Bosh BUT I think its STUPID to say "I don't care if Bosh leaves" or "trade Bosh" after a bad game or when he messes up in crunchtime.

Bosh is still young and can/will improve. I expect him to improve his "softness" against tough D and find better ways to score in crunch time.

[magani]

We get it with all the Bosh threads. However, when your team has a record of 16-24 the 'franchise' player will get the unbalanced negative attention as they do positive when the team is winning. The old adage of 'there are lies, damn lies, and then ther are statistics' applies to these discussions beautifully. I prefer Bill Parcells famous quote about "you are what your record says you are". We can turn those glowing statistic, shine them up real good, and turn the somebiatch sideways... At the end of the day, we are a soft, little-defence team with 8 games under .500. As good as Bosh is supposed to be, we should be a whole lot better with a player of his caliber on this team. The crux here is that Bosh doesn't really make anyone better on this team. He gets his alright, but he also gives up his too. There is no way to measure momentum in the game or how one soft play on the defensive end can deflate an entire team on the court. Yes, Bosh is our best player. He also gets his opportunities. I'd argue he really hasn't done anything this year to pick us up and take us on his shoulders on a winning streak. That's because he can't. How do you measure leadership? Shouldn't that be as important as these empty stats. Remember that we are 16-24 and Bosh is a big part of that record - win and lose.

[CreaM]

I think its okay to criticize Bosh BUT I think its STUPID to say "I don't care if Bosh leaves" or "trade Bosh" when he messes up in crunch time.

Bosh is still young and can/will improve. I expect him to improve his "softness" against tough D and find better ways to score in crunch time.

How exactly is he soft...

[The Journey Man]

I'm not saying I want Smitch back. I'm just trying to say that a lot of people try to discredit Bosh's numbers by saying that it was the system and not him. I'm saying that it was more his own skillset than the system.

I don't mind what Jay is running but I think that in order for us to become more successful we need to involve Bosh more often than we are now. But instead of increasing the iso plays for him, perhaps we should be freeing him up for midrange jumpers or running more hi low feeds or UCLA cuts. I don't know, anything to get easier baskets. Running the iso plays everytime takes up a lot of energy.

But nobody here say that he's not skilled... CB is a monster!

And I totally agree with you on the second part. No more iso play. Lets play like a team.
I know it's not easy to make everything work, but this is the reason that those coaches are payed millions and we are typing on our keyboard.

@OP... please stop calling posters "haters" when nobody here have screamed "Trade bosh!", "Bosh is useless" ect... if you want to know what's the meaning of hate look at the Bargs' threads of 10 days ago...

When people are saying Bosh is extremely bad defensively or so soft without backing it up, thats called being a hater.

I understand if it was backed up somehow, but it never is. At least some statistical data to show that he's not clutch or he's soft or he's not good defensively.

Furthermore, saying that he's second fiddle guys, or a guy who's the Scottie to a Jordan is ridiculous. The guy is 24.

Kevin Garnett, his idol at age 24:
22.0 PPG
1.8 BLK
11 RPG
76 FT%
47% FG%
5.8 FTA/game

Would you consider KG not a franchise calibre player? Is KG the Scottie to Pierce?

[shurikn]

Bosh is averaging 23.5/10 on 50% FG for the SEASON while being guarded by the best big defender on the opposing team and often facing double team or help defense.
I bet his stats from game 16 until now are still better than Bargs "MVP" stretch.

[Joga_Bonito]

I think its okay to criticize Bosh BUT I think its STUPID to say "I don't care if Bosh leaves" or "trade Bosh" when he messes up in crunch time.

Bosh is still young and can/will improve. I expect him to improve his "softness" against tough D and find better ways to score in crunch time.

How exactly is he soft...

I did not say he's soft, however against tough D, he has a bad habit of settling for jump shots (his softness against tough D).

[Avenger]

One has been thrown under the bus as Bustnani who was gonna be out of the league and one has been hailed as an unquestionable superstar. There IS a difference in expectations and rightfully so.

All some of us are saying is stop going to Bosh in the clutch and stop with this "give the ball to your best player" nonsense in crunch time which has been a giant failure time and time again. Lemme ask you a question, do you actually feel safe with the ball in Bosh's hands when we're lets say down 1 or down 2 or tied?

Depends on the amount of time left. I feel safe if there are 24+ seconds left on the clock. If it's the last shot of the game I think it's a bad idea only because it's easier to stop a big man on one posession than it is to stop a wing since good wing players are able to score from more spots on the court.

If provided with the time, Bosh is great down the stretch. He makes good passes, he attacks and gets to the line. Clutch is more than just taking the last shot. Clutch is turning it on when it counts and, for the most part, CB has done that (excluding the Boston games).

you didn't answer my question
stats can be manipulated to make them say what you want and especially clutch stats are too artificial for you to conclude anything

[dTox]

Bosh is the franchise!

[The Journey Man]

One has been thrown under the bus as Bustnani who was gonna be out of the league and one has been hailed as an unquestionable superstar. There IS a difference in expectations and rightfully so.

All some of us are saying is stop going to Bosh in the clutch and stop with this "give the ball to your best player" nonsense in crunch time which has been a giant failure time and time again. Lemme ask you a question, do you actually feel safe with the ball in Bosh's hands when we're lets say down 1 or down 2 or tied?

Depends on the amount of time left. I feel safe if there are 24+ seconds left on the clock. If it's the last shot of the game I think it's a bad idea only because it's easier to stop a big man on one posession than it is to stop a wing since good wing players are able to score from more spots on the court.

If provided with the time, Bosh is great down the stretch. He makes good passes, he attacks and gets to the line. Clutch is more than just taking the last shot. Clutch is turning it on when it counts and, for the most part, CB has done that (excluding the Boston games).

you didn't answer my question
stats can be manipulated to make them say what you want and especially clutch stats are too artificial for you to conclude anything

How are stats being manipulated? How are clutch stats too artificial? What is this based on? How is FG%, points, rebounds, all the same other stats you use for normal analysis, except used in the last 5 minutes of game when the score margin less than 5 too artificial?

[Assassin_1]

Bosh probably be a leader on 75% of the NBA teams and he be the best player on 66.6% of them too. Some of us have really high expectations for him after his HOF'er type streak at the beginning of the season.