Tell me again Please?

[Mustard_Tiger]

He's averaging a pretty good chunk of PT as it is though. I don't see why we need to make a trade like this to maybe open up 6 more minutes/game for Bargnani. Just make it work, and when a trade that actually makes sense comes along do it.

Agreed.

I dunno, I think most were happy with it. Bad timing with if though.

I wasn't happy with the Sam firing. He got Bosh to play hard, and actually understood the strengths of this basketball team (the pick and roll, the half court offense). What I wasn't expecting was for Triano to be so bad...he's singlehandedly made our offense less efficient somehow. We now lack any sort of an identity at all. We're not even "a bunch of shooters" as Stephen Jackson said earlier this season after a loss.

It will definitly be hard to rebuild if he's here making max money. No shot at good lotto picks. No money for good free agents. Not a whole lot of peices to trade. meh.

Basically, we're screwed. Not that it's all Colangelo's fault, but he should have realized you can't build around 2 finesse bigs in this league and expect to win anything. Ultimately the only way out of this is to get rid of Bosh or Bargnani.

[Mustard_Tiger]

I honestly don't understand this trade either. I think marion sucks.

It's like we traded ford, rasho, 1st for a few-month rental?

and a bad contract in banks.

Yeah...if Banks is coming with Marion...wow. Colangelo will have actually screwed all of this up.

For the first time in a long time, I'm not feeling too confident in his abilities as a GM.

[There There]

WHO IS GOING TO GUARD DWIGHT HOWARD IN THE PLAYOFFS IF WE DO IN FACT MAKE IT?

Jose

[JD225]

Banks is the deal breaker in my opinion. If Kapono is sent out it's a decent trade. If he isn't it's damn awful.

[The Duke]

This is a BAD BAD trade (JO for Marion/Banks).

I'd rather trade Bosh for a different package then this....

Honestly, part of me is thinking why did Bargs need to start playing well before the deadline

[mand_187]

Wow, people here truly are clueless. JO, as great as he was with us, cannot seem to stay on the court. We are 29th in the league in defensive rebounding. We are giving away second chance scoring like crazy. Marion addresses defensive rebounding. He also will be on the court more often than JO. He also offers us a HUGEEEEEEEE increase at the wings that I'm sure everyone here is getting sick of seeing (Moon with 8 3pt attempts a game but only making one). The experiment didn't work, BC is just trying to salvage the situation while he can get something out of it. Sure we don't want to add in the bad contract coming in, but JO's contract isn't the best either and it's just Miami balancing their books.

[joeyt618]

WHO IS GOING TO GUARD DWIGHT HOWARD IN THE PLAYOFFS IF WE DO IN FACT MAKE IT?

Who can?
You can't put a team together just so you can try and stop one player. Who says we'll face them in the playoffs anyway?

[mand_187]

This is a BAD BAD trade (JO for Marion/Banks).

I'd rather trade Bosh for a different package then this....

Honestly, part of me is thinking why did Bargs need to start playing well before the deadline

I would love to trade JO to get a star PF and trade Bosh to get a SUPERSTAR swingman as well. I think as long as we have a consistent threat at the 5-4-2 (or 5-4-3) and stars at the 1-3 (or 1-2) we could probably do better than at the 1 and 4.

[There There]

He's averaging a pretty good chunk of PT as it is though. I don't see why we need to make a trade like this to maybe open up 6 more minutes/game for Bargnani. Just make it work, and when a trade that actually makes sense comes along do it.

The problem BC faces is JO's health. The breeze that was created when his knee came within inches of touching another Warrior in that Golden State game was enough to have him sit out those 9 games.

His knee is obviously much more fragile than thought. What if he completely blows it out ? We then have 23 million dollars tied up in someone who will see as much PT as Hassan Adams, yet won't even sit on the bench and wave the towel like Hassan did. And if 23 million can't buy you a towel waver, then at least it can get you Marcus Banks.

But seriously, this team has too many holes right now, and too little flexibility, to have 23 million dollars tied up in someone who could go down at any moment. And maybe he is hurting team chemistry ? I'm not going to go down the path of trying to interpret what's going on in that locker room, but the fact that he is nowhere to be seen when he is injured is not a good sign of team unity.

If BC is trying to move JK, then i'm ok with Marcus' bad contract replacing JK's. Should make for an interesting month around here.

[Mustard_Tiger]

This is a BAD BAD trade (JO for Marion/Banks).

I'd rather trade Bosh for a different package then this....

As would I, it makes far more sense for our long term success.

Honestly, part of me is thinking why did Bargs need to start playing well before the deadline

[/quote]
Haha, very true, it's actually served in hurting us in a way. It's given Colangelo the idea that Bargnani and Bosh can be the leaders of a contending team.

[Hendrix]

[I wasn't happy with the Sam firing. He got Bosh to play hard, and actually understood the strengths of this basketball team (the pick and roll, the half court offense). What I wasn't expecting was for Triano to be so bad...he's singlehandedly made our offense less efficient somehow. We now lack any sort of an identity at all. We're not even "a bunch of shooters" as Stephen Jackson said earlier this season after a loss.

I didn't want Smitch as the coach, but I also was pretty sure Triano wasn't the answer. So bad timing imo, I would have just kept Smitch because there was no good replacments.

But I guess if BC wasn't going to keep Smitch anyways down the road, maybe he wanted to see what another coach could do so he could evaluate his talent or something.

Basically, we're screwed. Not that it's all Colangelo's fault, but he should have realized you can't build around 2 finesse bigs in this league and expect to win anything. Ultimately the only way out of this is to get rid of Bosh or Bargnani.

No I definitly don't blame BC, I've been behind like 90% of his moves, and he's had some tough luck. but the last 6 months or so pretty much boil down to trading out 1st, Rasho's expiring, and TJ for Banks + expiring. And that's pretty crappy.

[Paperclip]

He's averaging a pretty good chunk of PT as it is though. I don't see why we need to make a trade like this to maybe open up 6 more minutes/game for Bargnani. Just make it work, and when a trade that actually makes sense comes along do it.

The problem BC faces is JO's health. The breeze that was created when his knee came within inches of touching another Warrior in that Golden State game was enough to have him sit out those 9 games.

His knee is obviously much more fragile than thought. What if he completely blows it out ? We then have 23 million dollars tied up in someone who will see as much PT as Hassan Adams, yet won't even sit on the bench and wave the towel like Hassan did. And if 23 million can't buy you a towel waver, then at least it can get you Marcus Banks.

But seriously, this team has too many holes right now, and too little flexibility, to have 23 million dollars tied up in someone who could go down at any moment. And maybe he is hurting team chemistry ? I'm not going to go down the path of trying to interpret what's going on in that locker room, but the fact that he is nowhere to be seen when he is injured is not a good sign of team unity.

If BC is trying to move JK, then i'm ok with Marcus' bad contract replacing JK's. Should make for an interesting month around here.

except JO wasnt or isnt part of our future plans. Unless you believe we could contend this year or next, you would see the asset of JO was his contract. Another reason we pulled the trigger on the trade was because Bargnani was stinking it up in his 2nd year. Obviously it backfired but, this type of reactionary decision to trade JO for Marion makes little sense, if we plan to be anything close to contenders. This move will likely set us back. Would you rather have more capspace in 2010, or less in 2009 with a weaker pool? I too dont believe JO isnt worth keeping but, Id rather be more patient and ride it out to see if a better deal is on the table.

Regarding those mentioning Marions worth as a player.....Renting Marion as a player doesn`t help us in the future, so talking about how he is better than our wings is doesn`t mean much, we would still have a big hole at C and on the wings at the end of the season. IMO he doesn`t actually solve our wing problems either(atleast the level of impact), but that can be left for debate in another thread.

[Mustard_Tiger]

I didn't want Smitch as the coach, but I also was pretty sure Triano wasn't the answer. So bad timing imo, I would have just kept Smitch because there was no good replacments.
But I guess if BC wasn't going to keep Smitch anyways down the road, maybe he wanted to see what another coach could do so he could evaluate his talent or something.

Sam isn't a great coach for a contending team, but for an undisciplined team that lacked toughness like ours, I think he was just fine.

And you're right, it was terrible timing. An 8-9 record after an extremely tough start to the schedule and he fires him? It was almost like Colangelo was doing the fans' bidding, rather than what was better for the team.

No I definitly don't blame BC, I've been behind like 90% of his moves, and he's had some tough luck. but the last 6 months or so pretty much boil down to trading out 1st, Rasho's expiring, and TJ for Banks + expiring. And that's pretty crappy.

I really hope JO somehow plays and tweaks his knee again tomorrow causing Riley to decline this deal(sorry JO). It's that short-sighted and bad.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Right, Marion's worth as a player means absolutely nothing to me, nor should it matter to anybody else. The guy is just a rental for a few months in our attempt to reach the 7th/8th seed, and than he'll be gone.

[andyo]

Given the notion that we have to move J.O, I'd like some other alternatives but do people really think hanging on to him until 2010 is any better?

As I mentioned earlier, I would just move Bargs while his value is high and go for a wing. Reload in the draft, use our MLE, hire a new coach next year and make a run this year and in 2009.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Given the notion that we have to move J.O, I'd like some other alternatives but do people really think hanging on to him until 2010 is any better?

As I mentioned earlier, I would just move Bargs while his value is high and go for a wing. Reload in the draft, use our MLE, hire a new coach next year and make a run this year and in 2009.

Depends if you could get somebody great for Bargnani, which I kind of doubt. I think you have to keep him. Nobody will be willing to give up a lot for him because of the risk that he could just start to suck again.

[alberta_rapsfan]

ummm what part of the season have you guys missed? The part where JO misses game after game after game after game? The part where his **** contract led to us signing the likes of Will the Thrill and the Adams. Or was it the countless games JO did play but "was out of rythym due to injuries." The dude was a mistake plain and simple! The few games he did play well, he was a black hole and didnt coexsist with our best player. The sooner him and his s**t contract is gone the better. My only fear is that no one will want him, which is very possible. I for the life of me, could not find any reason on earth why anybody would want this 22 million doller DNP.

But guys we could hang on to him next year, so we can pay him 23 mil and watch him play even less games at an even more washed up level! Great idea! Get a clue this guy was one of the worst things to happen to the Raptors franchise in recent memory.

[Mustard_Tiger]

It doesn't seem like you actually read any of this thread at all.

[Mustard_Tiger]

Oh and there are many reasons why teams would want JO. Most of them have to do with the value of his contract. In fact, that was the reason we traded for him (or so I thought, before Colangelo screwed it all up by making this deal).

[Duncanfan]

Ok, lets say BC moves ahead with this trade. The cap this year was 59 million. According to some reports, the cap next year might decrease as league revenues are very low this year, attendance has been abysmal and television ratings ain't that great either. But for now, lets assume that the cap stays at 59 million, giving us about 12 million in cap space. Now, remember we don't get an MLE or LLE since we'd be under the cap by more than the MLE amount. All we'd get besides our cap space is the ability to sign minimum contract players.

Our roster before the 2009-2010 FA season would look like:

Jose / Roko / Banks
Kapono
??
Bosh / Hump
Bargnani / Jawai

This means we'd have 8 players on our roster.

Add our first round pick, thats an additional 2 million out of our cap space. The roster becomes:

Jose / Roko / Banks
Kapono
Draft Pick?
Bosh / Hump
Bargnani / Jawai

Now, to fill in the roster, forget about BC signing a major name bigman at the PF/C spot as it would take minutes away from Bargnani. Considering we need major help just to fill out our wing spots, we will be out in the market for a bigname Wingman (or bit players if BC wants to preserve cap space for the 2010 offseason).

Here are the wings available in the offseason:

SG:
----
Allen Iverson Unrestricted
Jamal Crawford Early termination option
Ben Gordon Unrestricted
Marquis Daniels Team option
Quentin Richardson Early termination option
Jarrett Jack Restricted
Juan Carlos Navarro Restricted
Anthony Parker Unrestricted
Rashad McCants Restricted
Carlos Delfino Restricted
Anthony Morrow Unguaranteed
Gerald Green Unrestricted
Brent Barry Unguaranteed
Devin Brown Player option
Luther Head Restricted
Von Wafer Option on restriction
Damien Wilkins Early termination option
Michael Finley Player option
Bobby Jackson Unrestricted
Keith Bogans Unrestricted
Sasha Pavlovic Partially guaranteed
Dahntay Jones Unrestricted
Fred Jones Unrestricted
Kareem Rush Unrestricted
Juan Dixon Unrestricted
Sonny Weems Partially guaranteed
Thomas Gardner Option on restriction
Quinton Ross Unrestricted
Shannon Brown Option on restriction
Quincy Douby Unrestricted
Alex Acker Team option
Morris Almond Unrestricted
Greg Buckner Partially guaranteed
Maurice Ager Unrestricted

SF:
----
Ron Artest Unrestricted
Hidayet Turkoglu Early termination option
Shawn Marion Unrestricted
Lamar Odom Unrestricted
Al Harrington Player option
Marvin Williams Restricted
Josh Childress Restricted
Linas Kleiza Restricted
Grant Hill Unrestricted
Travis Outlaw Unguaranteed
Trevor Ariza Unrestricted
Matt Barnes Unrestricted
Wally Szczerbiak Unrestricted
Jamario Moon Option on restriction
Kyle Korver Early termination option
Desmond Mason Unrestricted
Jerry Stackhouse Partially guaranteed
Walter Herrmann Option on restriction
Jarvis Hayes Team option
Tarence Kinsey Unguaranteed
Ricky Davis Player option
Matt Harpring Partially guaranteed
Rodney Carney Restricted
Trenton Hassell Early termination option
Ime Udoka Unrestricted
James Singleton Option on restriction
Ersan Ilyasova Option on restriction
Steve Novak Option on restriction
Dominic McGuire Unguaranteed
Louis Amundson Team option
Josh Powell Unguaranteed
Joey Graham Restricted
Malik Hairston Unguaranteed
Jeremy Richardson Option on restriction
Sun Yue Unguaranteed
Yakhouba Diawara Player option
Rob Kurz Option on restriction
Stephen Graham Unrestricted
Ryan Bowen Unrestricted
Devean George Player option

Out of the above FA's, the major name wings are:
Allen Iverson, Josh Childress, Marvin Williams, Al Harrington, Lamar Odom, Hidayet Turkoglu, Ron Artest, Jamal Crawford, Ben Gordon, Quentin Richardson, Carlos Delfino.

Hedo is surely going to be re-signed by the Magic. Harrington, Odom, Iverson and Ricardson are not what we need. Artest is the anti-BC player. Crawford is probably not going to opt out and will wait to cash in on the 2010 off-season. Delfino would want MLE type money. That leaves Marvin Williams, Childress and Gordon. Each one of these guys will want anywhere upward of 8 million per, which again doesn't really make sense for us as their impact isn't that of a player who'd push us into contention or even make us a top-4 team in the league, especially with the lack of depth on our roster.

Not to mention, we'd have our own FA's to think about: Moon, Marion, AP, Joey.

I don't see how we'd be able to become any better next season given the current crop of FA's and lack of trading chips. I see another losing to mediocre season next year. The bench/depth will be a problem again and we'd be scrambling for wins.