Future frontcourt of finesse, good or bad?

[dagger]

I could see alot iof free agents going to Memphis in 2010, because they are up and coming.

Then you're nuts. Bad teams rarely get Tier 1 free agents because Tier 1 free agents always have multiple options. And if you have ever been to Memphis, you'd know that there is not much reason to go there as a free agent. No endorsements. Mediocre city. But I guess if you like Beale Street Blues and pork ribs, you can at least kill a quiet evening or two.

[Ong_dynasty]

So a team with Bargnani at C Bosh at PF Lebron at SF Wade at SG and Paul at PG won't work?
That is a team with two finesse big men right?!?!You guys seems so adamant about that!!
Fair enough it is unrealistic..but the point is, you need to surround these players..

25 years ago the thought of an SG leading a team to 6 championships was ridiculous with below average C's was ridiculous...
3 years ago the thought of a player like KG winning a championship was also ridiculous.."what can you say now'..(as what the commercial said)
Even the Detroit team that won..if you ask fans of a team not having a superstar on the team winning a title it would have been laughed at..
These things do happen.
The league is a superstar driven league. and chances are the best 2 or 3 players are the ones that actually win it all..Unless you can think of a way of getting that superstar..the chances of winning the championship becomes lower..
and if you think relying on lady luck and lottery balls will do the trick...lol..

Do not get me wrong..A team of Barg's and Bosh may not win a championship...but only 1 out of 30 teams can..it doesn't mean you give up on it...

What about the pacers team of a few years ago?!?!they went by the "book" had a good center in Foster had a defensive PF in O'Neal had Artest..great defensive team..I mean I assume that what you want this team to be..but still didnt pull it off.. there are alot of variables that go into a team being a champion

[Hendrix]

[

Why does being crap mean you have chance at building yourself into a championship team and being mediocre doesn't? What's the difference. I hear this all the time around these parts and other teams boards. It takes more than just tanking and getting high picks and being crap for years to build a title contender.

There are three ways to add talent to a team, draft picks, free agents and trades. Nowhere is there a requirement to be crap to accomplish any of those things to continue to build a championship team.

Two key players for the Spurs were drafted after the 20th pick in the draft. We already have a 20/10 24 year old PF, a 23 year old center who is showing promise and a steady PG, again what's blowing it up going to do. There's no guarantee that just being crap and getting good young players' leads to the promised land.

Yes there's 3 ways to add talent to a team. Trades, free agents, and draft picks. But when you have a bunch of your guys on big deals, instead of rook deal but not enough talent on the team to even make the playoffs you take your self out of the equation significantly with all of them.

Free agents- With Bosh on a max deal. Calderon making $9 million or w/e. Bargnani making whatever he'll make. You pretty much take yourself out of the free agent market. Very hard to get under the cap in this case. Look at KG's years in Minny.

Draft-Yes it's possible to get guys mid 1st round, and in the 2nd round but it's a lot less likely.

Trades-If we don't have enough talent to even make the playoffs, then we don't have enough talent to make trades to improve to contender status. I mean, Bosh, Calderon, and Bargnani+Scrubs. That's not even close, you'de need like a couple trades that border on robery to fill that team in enough.


I mean it's definitly possible to do it, but normally teams build from the ground up. I think you'r just basing it on way too much luck this way. And this is all even if Bosh does re-sign which is a question mark in itself. If he doesn't then we're back in the lotto, and ddidn't even get young guys coming back for him.

[Hendrix]

I could see alot iof free agents going to Memphis in 2010, because they are up and coming.

Then you're nuts. Bad teams rarely get Tier 1 free agents because Tier 1 free agents always have multiple options. And if you have ever been to Memphis, you'd know that there is not much reason to go there as a free agent. No endorsements. Mediocre city. But I guess if you like Beale Street Blues and pork ribs, you can at least kill a quiet evening or two.

When did I say teir 1? No they wont get Kobe, LBJ, or Wade. But have you seen the 2010 free aggent list?

[Ong_dynasty]

[

Why does being crap mean you have chance at building yourself into a championship team and being mediocre doesn't? What's the difference. I hear this all the time around these parts and other teams boards. It takes more than just tanking and getting high picks and being crap for years to build a title contender.

There are three ways to add talent to a team, draft picks, free agents and trades. Nowhere is there a requirement to be crap to accomplish any of those things to continue to build a championship team.

Two key players for the Spurs were drafted after the 20th pick in the draft. We already have a 20/10 24 year old PF, a 23 year old center who is showing promise and a steady PG, again what's blowing it up going to do. There's no guarantee that just being crap and getting good young players' leads to the promised land.

Yes there's 3 ways to add talent to a team. Trades, free agents, and draft picks. But when you have a bunch of your guys on big deals, instead of rook deal but not enough talent on the team to even make the playoffs you take your self out of the equation significantly with all of them.

Free agents- With Bosh on a max deal. Calderon making $9 million or w/e. Bargnani making whatever he'll make. You pretty much take yourself out of the free agent market. Very hard to get under the cap in this case. Look at KG's years in Minny.

Draft-Yes it's possible to get guys mid 1st round, and in the 2nd round but it's a lot less likely.

Trades-If we don't have enough talent to even make the playoffs, then we don't have enough talent to make trades to improve to contender status. I mean, Bosh, Calderon, and Bargnani+Scrubs. That's not even close, you'de need like a couple trades that border on robery to fill that team in enough.


I mean it's definitly possible to do it, but normally teams build from the ground up. I think you'r just basing it on way too much luck this way.

But even a top 3 pick does not guarantee anything?!?!
Lets take this into acccount..over the last 10 years...the true superstar players that have been chosen number one to three...are Lebron and Dwight?!?! and Ill give you Oden..because he has to put it together right?!?! I do not want to include wade and paul and those ones..because no one expected them to be this good..!!
So not only do you have a 3 in 10 chance but you also have to rely on the lottery balls going your way..doesnt the worst team only have like a 30% chance of actually getting the number 1 pick?!?!I mean the odds are against you in actually lucking out..
You can try and build around good players like the blazers and what chicago did..But a team of good players does not get it done..and as much as everybody raves about the blazers..for them to win it all they really have to rely on Oden blossoming into what is expected of him..

It really is just not in your favor to try and win that way...it may take 10,20 and even 30 years..(when you look at odds that is)

[Hendrix]

[
But even a top 3 pick does not guarantee anything?!?!
Lets take this into acccount..over the last 10 years...the true superstar players that have been chosen number one to three...are Lebron and Dwight?!?! and Ill give you Oden..because he has to put it together right?!?! I do not want to include wade and paul and those ones..because no one expected them to be this good..!!
So not only do you have a 3 in 10 chance but you also have to rely on the lottery balls going your way..doesnt the worst team only have like a 30% chance of actually getting the number 1 pick?!?!I mean the odds are against you in actually lucking out..
You can try and build around good players like the blazers and what chicago did..But a team of good players does not get it done..and as much as everybody raves about the blazers..for them to win it all they really have to rely on Oden blossoming into what is expected of him..

It really is just not in your favor to try and win that way...it may take 10,20 and even 30 years..(when you look at odds that is)

which is why if you trade Bosh, you get gauranteed young players you already know are good then you're rellying a lot less on lotto balls. They are just kinda a bonus, and if it works out you have a whole bunch of nice young players on rookie deals to add free agents. I mean if you're heading down a path where Bosh has a good chance of bolting, then you're rellying souly on lotto balls, and that takes a lot longer to rebuild.

And you're a heck of a lot more likely to get impact players high lotto then late lotto treadmiull zone. Not gauranteed by any means, but a couple years there, and you should get something significant.

[Ong_dynasty]

[
But even a top 3 pick does not guarantee anything?!?!
Lets take this into acccount..over the last 10 years...the true superstar players that have been chosen number one to three...are Lebron and Dwight?!?! and Ill give you Oden..because he has to put it together right?!?! I do not want to include wade and paul and those ones..because no one expected them to be this good..!!
So not only do you have a 3 in 10 chance but you also have to rely on the lottery balls going your way..doesnt the worst team only have like a 30% chance of actually getting the number 1 pick?!?!I mean the odds are against you in actually lucking out..
You can try and build around good players like the blazers and what chicago did..But a team of good players does not get it done..and as much as everybody raves about the blazers..for them to win it all they really have to rely on Oden blossoming into what is expected of him..

It really is just not in your favor to try and win that way...it may take 10,20 and even 30 years..(when you look at odds that is)

which is why if you trade Bosh, you get gauranteed young players you already know are good then you're rellying a lot less on lotto balls. They are just kinda a bonus, and if it works out you have a whole bunch of nice young players on rookie deals to add free agents. I mean if you're heading down a path where Bosh has a good chance of bolting, then you're rellying souly on lotto balls, and that takes a lot longer to rebuild.

And you're a heck of a lot more likely to get impact players high lotto then late lotto treadmiull zone. Not gauranteed by any means, but a couple years there, and you should get something significant.

What is your best case young players..I am assuming something along the lines of OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay?!?!I mean that is similar to a Luol Deng and Ben Gordon package a few years ago..and will lead to a treadmill team..so your back in the same place..
I guess that is where me and you disagree...I think the best option is to get rid of as many contracts as possible..start with Bosh and Bargnani.. see who you can get in the FA market..whether it be Marvin Williams or whoever..and then take it from there...
Another problem is..Bosh and Bargnani are not even that old..you get someone younger who is what 2 years younger??and you do not even guarantee that they can reach the level of bosh!!If you are talking about a 29 year old bosh and a 28 year old Bargnani..then you are right..it will probably be time (if the last 5 years did not prove a success)..but these guys are still young..in theory..we havnt even taken a year to try and build around these 2.

[Hendrix]

[What is your best case young players..I am assuming something along the lines of OJ Mayo and Rudy Gay?!?!I mean that is similar to a Luol Deng and Ben Gordon package a few years ago..and will lead to a treadmill team..so your back in the same place..
I guess that is where me and you disagree...I think the best option is to get rid of as many contracts as possible..start with Bosh and Bargnani.. see who you can get in the FA market..whether it be Marvin Williams or whoever..and then take it from there...
Another problem is..Bosh and Bargnani are not even that old..you get someone younger who is what 2 years younger??and you do not even guarantee that they can reach the level of bosh!!If you are talking about a 29 year old bosh and a 28 year old Bargnani..then you are right..it will probably be time (if the last 5 years did not prove a success)..but these guys are still young..in theory..we havnt even taken a year to try and build around these 2.

It has nothing to do with their age, and getting someone younger though. It has to do with contract sizes. If Bosh , and Bargs re-sign this is what we'll be paying in a couple years, Bosh-17million. Bargnani-9 million, Calderon-9million. You're never going to be good enough to get under the cap significantly enough to add good players through free agents. You don't have enough peices with the remainder of the roster to make trades for really good players. And that core will keep you just good enough to not get the high lotto picks. Basically the definition of a treadmill team.

I don't think we could get Mayo, and Gay +expiringsat all for Bosh. But if we did no that would not be a treadmill team in the slgithest. Beacuse your team is on rook contracts so can add free agents, has a higher chance of adding high draft picks, and just generally has far more flexibility.

Right now we're in win now mode, but we don't have the talent to win now, and have very little flexibility to improve the roster. The other roster has a lot of options to imporove.

[whysoserious]

I mean they could certainly just lead you back to the same mediocrity, but atleast you're giving yourself a chance at becoming better. We already know sticking with the one-dimensional Bosh as a #1 won't work.

We do? Since when did this question get answered? Remember a couple of years ago the Celtics fans were questioning sticking with Pierce and Minny fans were questioning stickign with KG, suddenly they are together and voila, look at what they can do along with Ray.

[Death Knight]

I mean they could certainly just lead you back to the same mediocrity, but atleast you're giving yourself a chance at becoming better. We already know sticking with the one-dimensional Bosh as a #1 won't work.

We do? Since when did this question get answered? Remember a couple of years ago the Celtics fans were questioning sticking with Pierce and Minny fans were questioning stickign with KG, suddenly they are together and voila, look at what they can do along with Ray.

Just like to point out that Pierce was injured and barely played during that horrible horibble season.

[Mustard_Tiger]

I mean they could certainly just lead you back to the same mediocrity, but atleast you're giving yourself a chance at becoming better. We already know sticking with the one-dimensional Bosh as a #1 won't work.

We do? Since when did this question get answered? Remember a couple of years ago the Celtics fans were questioning sticking with Pierce and Minny fans were questioning stickign with KG, suddenly they are together and voila, look at what they can do along with Ray.

Finesse big men that don't play any defense do not win championships in this league, especially when they are as unclutch as Bosh.

[whysoserious]

I mean they could certainly just lead you back to the same mediocrity, but atleast you're giving yourself a chance at becoming better. We already know sticking with the one-dimensional Bosh as a #1 won't work.

We do? Since when did this question get answered? Remember a couple of years ago the Celtics fans were questioning sticking with Pierce and Minny fans were questioning stickign with KG, suddenly they are together and voila, look at what they can do along with Ray.

Just like to point out that Pierce was injured and barely played during that horrible horibble season.

That has nothing to do with it. Even the year before the C's were heading nowhere and people were questioning Pierce as a franchise guy but suddenly you add two all-stars around him with some youth and good role players and he looks a lot better and ready to carry a franchise.

[djsunyc]

kg got out of the 1st round once before getting to boston and that's after they acquired cassell + spree.

give bosh a wing player and he'll be fine.

stop criticizing him for NOT being lebron + wade + paul + dwight.

getting those players is pure luck. trading bosh ain't guaranteed to yield anything. he's a 20/10 player and is 24. he's not a cancer and he's a good citizen and represents the franchise well. why in the blue heck would you trade that type of player?

[whysoserious]

I mean they could certainly just lead you back to the same mediocrity, but atleast you're giving yourself a chance at becoming better. We already know sticking with the one-dimensional Bosh as a #1 won't work.

We do? Since when did this question get answered? Remember a couple of years ago the Celtics fans were questioning sticking with Pierce and Minny fans were questioning stickign with KG, suddenly they are together and voila, look at what they can do along with Ray.

Finesse big men that don't play any defense do not win championships in this league, especially when they are as unclutch as Bosh.

How many big men are clutch? Show me in the league the number of big men that are relied on to make plays at the end of the game for their team. For all the supposed great defense KG brought to the table he couldn't do it alone in Minny, and we've seen Bosh play good defense before when he wasn't so heavily relied upon offensively like in the olympics. I don't think he'll be an elite defender but more than adequate.

Put some better players around Bosh and his game takes off along with the whole team. I swear some of you expect Bosh to do things beyond what most teams would ever expect of such a player. The guy is 24 and never even had a second star let alone two like the elite teams do and yet you expect so much out of him.

[Mustard_Tiger]

I watched Dirk make a game-winning shot today.

[Mustard_Tiger]

We've moved away from the crux of the argument, though.

That a finesse, no defense front court of Bosh and Bargnani isn't a good base to win a championship. Anybody that's ever watched the NBA knows that. One of them should be traded, and on the assumption that Bosh is leaving in 2 years anyway, he should be the one.

[Ong_dynasty]

I watched Dirk make a game-winning shot today.

I didnt know if you know this..but your best player does not have to take the last shot...but dont tell anyone as the secret may come out...

Tim Duncan..for all his greatness...I can only remember him making one last sec shot in the playoffs (and that was with Fisher cancelling it out)

[whysoserious]

I watched Dirk make a game-winning shot today.

And? Dirk plays a completely different game, more hybrid SF/PF game. Besides he has a HOF PG playing with him and Howard and Terry also for other teams to key in on. Who else is there to key in on on this team?

Oh and since you brought him up, doesn't Dirk fit the mould of no defense playing PF? Didn't the Lakers make it to the finals with Gasol and Odom? Hardly world beaters on the defensive end.

It takes quite a bit of luck to make it to the finals or even win the championship but you guys expect Bosh to do it all by himself and if he doesn't he's a supposed fake star or not a franchise guy or just a star.

[Assassin_1]

A deal around Mayo/Gasol or Jefferson/First rounder or Fernandez/Aldridge/1st only get my attention for Bosh.