Maybe a Rebuild Isn't Necessary

[gangstaff]

I think it's because that list is just your subjective opinion that a lot of people disagree with.

Hah, the smarmy know-it-all king of the one liners thinks that is a subjective opinion?

How was it smarmy? It's the truth. Your list of "facts" is not only subjective for the most part, but also incomplete and skewed to present the vision of the future that you agree with. A lot of people disagree with that, which is where "all the optimism" is coming from.

Still waiting to hear how it was subjective.

[underdog33]

We're 8-18 under Triano.
Our "core" can't play defense.
We have absolutely nothing on the wings, for now or the future.
We're going to trade our toughest player and only inside presence for cap space.

Where is all this optimism coming from? I think we're worse off now than 3 years ago when BC took over.

I think it's because that list is just your subjective opinion that a lot of people disagree with.

Hah, the smarmy know-it-all king of the one liners thinks that is a subjective opinion?

Subjective: Subjectivity refers to a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires. It is often used casually to refer to unjustified personal opinions, in contrast to knowledge and justified belief. In philosophy, the term is often contrasted with objectivity.

Our record is a fact.
Bosh, Bargs, and especially Jose are bad to average defenders. Not sure how anyone can argue with that, but go ahead and try.
Our wings are: Parker (33 year old EuroLeaguer), Moon (28 year old BushLeaguer), Kapono (27 year old "shooter"), Graham (26 year old bust). No youth, no talent.
JO is easily our toughest player and best inside presence. We are trading him because we're out of the playoffs and we're eager to free up time for Bargs. I don't like the move, but it is what it is. It also gives up cap space a year earlier so we can sign...who? I'm sure BC won't botch it like he did Kapono, Fred Jones, Will Solomon, Maceo Baston.

I agree with all of gangstaff's points, but on the other hand, I don't think it's necessarily time to abandon all hope. I'm waiting to see how Colangelo will fix his mistakes, and if he doesn't, I look forward to what his successor will do in the event that Colangelo is fired.

[timdunkit]

Good job Fenris. I have said this all the time, good ball-movement and off-ball movement could help offset the raptors need of a wing who could create. We have seen it at times when our wings decide to move, they get easy cuts and lay ups and open shots. Its was also one of the reason why I said JO should have been the garbage man and CB4 the main cog on offense and it was the only way the 2 would work. If one of the bigs is constantly setting picks and crashing glass while the other gets the iso's. Except it didn't work like that, both Bosh and JO got iso's which caused everyone to be spot up shooters. I would love to see Messina's system and see how our future holds ... When we have the assets its easier to fufill our needs, and sooner or later we could get a wing but with what we have I don't see it happening till we move JO and make some cap room .....

[Fairview4Life]

Still waiting to hear how it was subjective.

......

Our "core" can't play defense.
We have absolutely nothing on the wings, for now or the future.
We're going to trade our toughest player and only inside presence for cap space.

Our core can play defense. Saying they can't is your subjective opinion. Jose Calderon can't play defense very well. Luckily, he isn't the only core player. On top of that, since defense is a learned skill and experience is a big help, Bargnani's dramatic improvement this season points to even better play defensively in the future for the Bargs/Bosh combo.

We do have something on the wings. We have useful players (although, no star) with decent contracts for the most part, who can either remain as backups or be moved as parts of a larger trade. Your subjective opinion is that we have nothing. That is hardly a fact, and is also subject to your particular interpretation of what "nothing" actually is.

JO, our toughest player, has been injured for 15 games and has been supplanted by the improved play of Bargnani. Like the TJ trade, the Raps are moving him for talent in another less crowded position (Bargs wasn't exactly crowding anyone out of frontcourt minutes last year). It's your subjective opinion that he's the Raps toughest player and requires your interpretation of what toughness actually means. Some people might not think that the teams toughest player would miss more than a third of the season, for example. Or that the team wouldn't be one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the league with it's toughest player in the lineup, and one of the best with Bargnani starting instead.

Also included in why people might not just blindly accept your subjective interpretation of the "facts" is that the one fact you posted, the record under Triano, is meant to mislead. You somehow neglected to mention that Jose has missed 9 of those 26 games and played injured in 1 of them, and JO has missed 10. Or the 6 game western road trip under Triano. Or the fact the Raps haven't had 2 days off in a row since Christmas, which was their only 2 day break since Triano had been hired. Some might think that it would be difficult for a new coach to implement anything new with so many injuries and so little practice time.

So, as you can see, of the four points you posted, 3 of them are entirely your subjective opinion, and one is out of context enough that reasonable people can feel fine ignoring it for the most part. They are also not the only four "facts" that might cause someone to feel good or bad about the Raptors. So even though you can't see where all the optimism is coming from, others reasonably can, since their opinion differs from yours.

[Pchu]

A complete rebuild is probably not necessary. They do need to make some changes for obvious reason.

When you look at the roster: we got an all-star Bosh, and a pretty solid PG in Calderon.

If Bargnani can stay at this level, he will be a solid starter (not an allstar), perhaps he could have an impact like Memet Okur.

So you need a very good wing, a guy who is near or at all-star level.
Could use some good players from the bench as well.

It's not impossible to do all that in the offseason, but the key is to trade JO's contract so it will give the team's flexibility it needs to move forward.

[raptor_loyalist]

You can't teach stupid... rebuild.

It's relatively easy to label certain members of this squad stupid. But I don't think intelligence is the biggest proponent in the Raptors' lack of success in the last 2 months.

I don't know how long you've been avidly watching Raptors' ball but I for one am not ready for another 3-4 years rebuilding again after VC was traded. Forget it.

What most seem to be missing here is this team lacks serious chemistry. It has none. When a team does not have a go-to, clutch persona to give the ball to during crunch time chemistry plays a huge role. That's what the 47-35 2006/07 squad had.

I want it back.

Next, Bryan Colangelo needs to speak through action right now and FIX this team because he's the one to blame here, not the players.

[Danchan]

but the question is... do you think Raptors without rebuilding/retooling have enough talent to compete?

[beno]

everyone seems to be high on messina, i'm sure he and triano has chatted at least once or more.

[Free CDR]

The only rebuilding we need is on JO's knee

[Raps in 4]

The problem is this team isn't used to playing by any system (there was no such thing as a system under Smitch). I agree with what you're saying though.

[youreachiteach]

Still waiting to hear how it was subjective.

......

Our "core" can't play defense.
We have absolutely nothing on the wings, for now or the future.
We're going to trade our toughest player and only inside presence for cap space.

Our core can play defense. Saying they can't is your subjective opinion. Jose Calderon can't play defense very well. Luckily, he isn't the only core player. On top of that, since defense is a learned skill and experience is a big help, Bargnani's dramatic improvement this season points to even better play defensively in the future for the Bargs/Bosh combo.

We do have something on the wings. We have useful players (although, no star) with decent contracts for the most part, who can either remain as backups or be moved as parts of a larger trade. Your subjective opinion is that we have nothing. That is hardly a fact, and is also subject to your particular interpretation of what "nothing" actually is.

JO, our toughest player, has been injured for 15 games and has been supplanted by the improved play of Bargnani. Like the TJ trade, the Raps are moving him for talent in another less crowded position (Bargs wasn't exactly crowding anyone out of frontcourt minutes last year). It's your subjective opinion that he's the Raps toughest player and requires your interpretation of what toughness actually means. Some people might not think that the teams toughest player would miss more than a third of the season, for example. Or that the team wouldn't be one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the league with it's toughest player in the lineup, and one of the best with Bargnani starting instead.

Also included in why people might not just blindly accept your subjective interpretation of the "facts" is that the one fact you posted, the record under Triano, is meant to mislead. You somehow neglected to mention that Jose has missed 9 of those 26 games and played injured in 1 of them, and JO has missed 10. Or the 6 game western road trip under Triano. Or the fact the Raps haven't had 2 days off in a row since Christmas, which was their only 2 day break since Triano had been hired. Some might think that it would be difficult for a new coach to implement anything new with so many injuries and so little practice time.

So, as you can see, of the four points you posted, 3 of them are entirely your subjective opinion, and one is out of context enough that reasonable people can feel fine ignoring it for the most part. They are also not the only four "facts" that might cause someone to feel good or bad about the Raptors. So even though you can't see where all the optimism is coming from, others reasonably can, since their opinion differs from yours.

Pwned.

[gangstaff]

Still waiting to hear how it was subjective.

......

Our "core" can't play defense.
We have absolutely nothing on the wings, for now or the future.
We're going to trade our toughest player and only inside presence for cap space.

Our core can play defense. Saying they can't is your subjective opinion. Jose Calderon can't play defense very well. Luckily, he isn't the only core player. On top of that, since defense is a learned skill and experience is a big help, Bargnani's dramatic improvement this season points to even better play defensively in the future for the Bargs/Bosh combo.

We do have something on the wings. We have useful players (although, no star) with decent contracts for the most part, who can either remain as backups or be moved as parts of a larger trade. Your subjective opinion is that we have nothing. That is hardly a fact, and is also subject to your particular interpretation of what "nothing" actually is.

JO, our toughest player, has been injured for 15 games and has been supplanted by the improved play of Bargnani. Like the TJ trade, the Raps are moving him for talent in another less crowded position (Bargs wasn't exactly crowding anyone out of frontcourt minutes last year). It's your subjective opinion that he's the Raps toughest player and requires your interpretation of what toughness actually means. Some people might not think that the teams toughest player would miss more than a third of the season, for example. Or that the team wouldn't be one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the league with it's toughest player in the lineup, and one of the best with Bargnani starting instead.

Also included in why people might not just blindly accept your subjective interpretation of the "facts" is that the one fact you posted, the record under Triano, is meant to mislead. You somehow neglected to mention that Jose has missed 9 of those 26 games and played injured in 1 of them, and JO has missed 10. Or the 6 game western road trip under Triano. Or the fact the Raps haven't had 2 days off in a row since Christmas, which was their only 2 day break since Triano had been hired. Some might think that it would be difficult for a new coach to implement anything new with so many injuries and so little practice time.

So, as you can see, of the four points you posted, 3 of them are entirely your subjective opinion, and one is out of context enough that reasonable people can feel fine ignoring it for the most part. They are also not the only four "facts" that might cause someone to feel good or bad about the Raptors. So even though you can't see where all the optimism is coming from, others reasonably can, since their opinion differs from yours.

Pwned.

Not. Only a homer would believe that Bargs is going to turn into our defensive anchor and make up for Jose's matador defense. Holy wishful thinking Batman.

Useful players? Our wings are the WORST IN THE LEAGUE. Certainly bottom 3. Name me another team's wing players that are worse in terms of productivity and upside.

JO was held out for a trade, that's pretty obvious. He'd have played quite a bit more otherwise. And he's still our only tough interior presence. Unless you think Bargs has been ripping down 50/50 boards and intimidating opposing players around the rim?

There's this little saying that I quite like: "You are what your record says you are". Every team has issues, injuries, etc. The fact is we're worse under Triano than we were under Mitchell. That isn't even a knock on Triano...I like him, I have no problem with him being our coach. It just goes to show that the garbage roster we have can't be saved by flipping coaches...that was a move by BC to save his own cred.

Regardless of any of this, I will fully admit that I see this team's future as glass half-empty. I guess that's a view not shared by many, which makes it maddening to read and post in these threads, but such is life. Different strokes for different folks.