Stat of the day: Bench production (more like non-production)

[supersub15]

Toronto Bench

Wanted to check how our bench is doing this year as compared to last year:

(ranking in parentheses)

Code: Select all

          2008-2009    2007-2008
Points    25.8 (25)      34.6  (3)
Def Reb    7.9 (27)      10.5  (4)
Off Reb    2.8 (28)       3.7 (17)
FG%      0.432 (21)     0.439 (12)
3P%      0.315 (26)     0.383  (3)
FTA        6.1 (25)       6.6 (20)
Blocks     1.0 (27)       1.0 (29)
Assists    5.6 (17)       8.5  (1)
Steals     2.0 (25)       2.6 (10)
DEff*     -8.2 (28)      +7.3  (3)

* Effiency Differential = Team Efficiency - Opponent Effiency

We sacrified a lot of production off the bench to get Jermaine O'Neal was has not been able to compensate for the loss of Rasho, TJ and Delfino. Another 10 to 12 ppg scorer (Delfino?) would have helped bridge the gap and got us some more wins. Colangelo's O'Neal mortgage has failed and the replacements on the bench can barely get off the bench (Jawai, Solo man, Ukic).

[J-Roc]

Problem with that bench stuff from previous years is that the bench was as good as the starters. And that was always a fundamental flaw of this team. Starters like AP, Moon were not good enough. Rasho. Our bench was bound to get more minutes.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Not to mention the 1st rounder.

Hickson, Koufos, Lee, Batum, Hill are all making contributions to playoff teams.

[Fairview4Life]

The starters went from 14th to 9th so far, even with Jose's injury (luckily Bargs stepped up when JO went out). But the bench went from 3rd to 28th.

This is why JO needs to be moved. With Bargs playing well, the starters can seemingly handle themselves. But with so much money tied up in JO's salary, the Raps can't get anyone to either improve the starting lineup (like Orlando, who succeed with an even worse bench), or shore up the bench to have high level consistency throughout the game. Or even do both.

I don't see how the conclusion can be anything other than to move JO.

If we keep him, move Bargs back to the bench and hope he's actually turned the corner.

[Guy Smiley]

I hate JO. I hated him before the trade and I despise him more each day.

This thread fuels my rage against that pansy.

Hi Shaazzam.

[carmelo115]

It seems like BC really screwed up big time with that JO trade. I guess he thought that awesome players like Soloman, Ukic, Jawai, Kapono, and Graham would be a great bench. Scary because these guys would be at the 13th to 15th players on other teams bench but on ours they're part of the rotation.

[Fairview4Life]

It seems like BC really screwed up big time with that JO trade. I guess he thought that awesome players like Soloman, Ukic, Jawai, Kapono, and Graham would be a great bench. Scary because these guys would be at the 13th to 15th players on other teams bench but on ours they're part of the rotation.

I doubt he thought that they would be a great bench. Just that the starters would be enough, and that Bargs coming off the bench would be good.

[Brinbe]

Yeah, I was just thinking this very same thing after someone in another thread posted stats that showed that we've won a nice majority of 1st quarters this year. So if we're still losing that just shows that we have a weak bench without a consistent source of scoring to rely upon. This is really one area where the under performing players and bad contracts (Kapono) really hurt us the most.

[knickerbocker2k2]

Problem is bench is not being used. We had better bench last year but our bench this year is being non-existent. Only person to get regular minutes has being Graham & one of JO/Bargs.

-Hump hasn't gotten consistent minutes. Jake has being ahead of him sometimes and unfortunately now he is injured.

-Solomon/Ukic. It has being one or the other except for short stretch where Jose was injured. They have being mis-used. You should give one of them extended minutes for extended time. Sometimes Solomon gets 1st half and then Ukic second half backup minutes.

-Graham. Since Triano he has being getting regular minutes but inconsistent results. I think they should give him specific role. I believe he can be used as Corliss Williamson type of role of the bench. We should run plays for him off the post or iso against slower players. However most of his minutes seem to come with the starters and as such can't justify running offense through him when there are better options.

Last year we would see times where we would have 3-4 bench players at the same time. This year maximum is 2 bench players with most times only 1. Even if your bench is horrible you have to give them consistent minutes rather then spot up minutes depending on match ups and who produces in limited time.

[RN06]

Wow, the Raptors bench dropped big time in almost every single category. I agree that BC screwed up big time with this deal, but JO did help the team in a way though. If it wasn't for JO, then Andrea Bargnani might have not panned out. Bargnani credits JO for helping his game during the summer, but then this is just my opinion.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It seems like BC really screwed up big time with that JO trade. I guess he thought that awesome players like Soloman, Ukic, Jawai, Kapono, and Graham would be a great bench. Scary because these guys would be at the 13th to 15th players on other teams bench but on ours they're part of the rotation.

I'm sure he was also banking on Kapono playing like he did against Orlando. The idea was that either JO or Bosh would get the double team, and then there'd be a buffet of open looks. JO didn't get the double, and even Bosh is being guarded straight up more and more this year. Also, neither of them were passing much those first few months.

[TorontoSF]

I think the stat is something like this we have won like 21 out of 27 past 1st quarters. The bench production, or the fact that we dont get any might explain us always getting destroyed in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't explain our horrible play else where though, but our starting lineup isn't good enough to have such a horrible bench.

[djsunyc]

thanks for this supersub. i was telling a friend of mine this morning that the raps have no depth and that's what's really killing us. when we go to our subs, it hurts us alot. we didn't have that problem 2 years ago, and then we lost garbo - a player we did not replace last season. and that's why our win total went from 47 to 41 (not to mention bosh's injuries last season as well).

then this year, we entered the season with even worse depth than the year before.

our problem is not our pg.
our problem is not our pf.
our problem is not our c.

we have the worst 2/3 rotation in the league and we have zero backup pg.

that's why we need to chill with the panicking and say blow it up. we need to bolster our bench and that's why trading jermiane's $23 mil for an expiring is vital b/c we need to allocate those resources to multiple players since we can't go into the luxury.

[jonny three time]

It's a combination of the loss of Delfino and TJ that have made our bench so weak. When TJ and Jose were healthy one of them would always be on the court, and when TJ was hurt Delfino did a fine job as a backup PG as well. Delfino also gave us an athletic scorer who could slash and shoot which has shown to be a bigger loss than many of us expected.

Our team is built for guys to make plays for eachother, and when we go to the bench we don't really have a guy who can set anyone up for any easy looks. AP has recently shown the ability but it might be too little too late.

I hope that BC re-signs both Delfino and AP. I think they would make for a great guard tandem to play together when Jose sits as both can play on the ball or off the ball, and both are good defenders who can't be exploited. Don't get me wrong, I hope Ukic develops, but I wouldn't plan on him becoming significantly better by next year, its too important of a position for our team to gamble on.

[bill russell]

SS -- this is useful but would be more useful if we also included bench minutes this year and last. thanks

[chsh22]

It seems like BC really screwed up big time with that JO trade. I guess he thought that awesome players like Soloman, Ukic, Jawai, Kapono, and Graham would be a great bench. Scary because these guys would be at the 13th to 15th players on other teams bench but on ours they're part of the rotation.

I don't think it's so much of a screw up. If JO came back to his all-star numbers, he would have looked like a genius. I'm sure he thought it was worth the risk, plus we got more flexibility in '10 which is what his goal was.

People gotta keep in mind that BC was always intending on signing shorter-term contracts so that in 2010 we could make a play for another star player and re-sign Bosh.

Not only that, but with Bargnani crediting JO's arrival to the team as one of the sources of his improvement, there's at least some mitigating the damage of the trade. The real key is losing out on re-signing Delfino and keeping Rasho.

To top all of that off, the team's poor play at the beginning of the season gave us the excuse we needed to fire Sam.

[quickymgee]

he probably had no idea soloman would suck so much and kapono. hassan lost all basketball powers, jawai couldn't play for almost half the season. It seems pretty evident that the lack of bench production has destroyed us.

[Cassius]

Tarence Kinsey, Dahntay Jones, Matt Barnes, Quintin Ross, James Singleton, Birdman, Anthony Morrow, DeMarcus Nelson, Von Wafer, Devin Brown, Kareem Rush and Juan Dixon. Bonzi Wells isn't in the league as far as I know.

All of these guys are or were playing for the minimum for their teams and they're all better than Hassan Adams ever was or will be. I'm sure most of these guys don't even have guaranteed deals, but we felt it necessary to go overseas to find our backup shooting guard and point guard. JO's salary clearly is not garnering any value on the court, but neither are the other guys he brought in to fill the gaps.

It's getting to the point where BC has been getting so unlucky with his deals that you have to wonder why he keeps taking these chances.

[420520620720]

Its not all BCs fault or jermaines.
All we needed was AP to play like he had been and ONE of adams,ukic,moon,graham solomon or hump to have a better than average to career year.
Nobody stepped up and AP nearly fell off the map.APs shooting consistency disappeared in training camp and never returned.

[Deadpool Raptor]

That's the whole point of the trade though: it was a swing for the fences kind of move.

Either it panned out and we had an amazing team, or it didn't and we move on the plan B in the following year. I don't know if anyone had differing expectations coming into this season, I know I didn't.