68/24/7/4/6

[Hendrix]

I don't know how much you can really expect better then Parker for your 5th best player. Every team. Even San Antonio, Cleveland have guys worse then Parker as key contributers.

The bench, and the core just isn't that good.

Raw stats don't really tell much imo. I mean

20.3ppg 5.8apg 3.3rpg. .582ts%.
22.6ppg 2.6apg 9.2rpg .585ts%
16.8ppg 3.3apg 4.7rpg .561ts%

or

20.5ppg 6.7apg 2.9rpg .535ts%
20.5ppg 3.8apg 10.6rpg .561ts%
16.5ppg 3.5apg 4.7rpg .595ts%


Which PG-SG-PF core's better? 05/06 Raptors with Mike James, Morris Peterson, and Chris Bosh or current Tony Parker, Manuc Ginobili, and Tim Duncan?

[BigShotBob13]

So does that explain the countless times he looks off marion and AB cutting/fastbreaking to the basket just to pass to parker/kapono and watch them miss the shot?

We keep saying we have a good shooting team, newsflash we don't. We have SOME good shooters. AP and Kapono aren't them, AP is when he has a good game but that's about it. To have a PG make a pass for a shot instead of a cut to the basket where you have a higher percentage and a chance to draw a foul is absurd.

Countless times? Marion, grand total of 7 games, one game where he played 5 minutes. Kapono isn't a good shooter? Ill just laugh and move on. You post as if Jose misses every single time that happens, read my post again. I said Jose chooses to pass because he puts his teammates in the best position to score. He should hit Bargnani more inside but until this season he wasn't a factor, he's had a great resurgence and it SHOULD be on Jose to get him the ball more. I am 100% positive that Jose knows this, he isn't in the NBA because he's an idiot. He's in the NBA because he can play basketball and play it well. We saw him progress this far from being a PG who couldn't shoot, to tentative running the offense into a PG who can shoot the lights out and can run the show better then most PG in the league. He's shown us he can improve the weaknesses in his game and show a desire to be better. He gets back to 100% without any fear of pulling the hamstring again, gets to know a system where there's a defined role for players and gets some time to practice with his team, then people should make judgments. This season is a complete write off.

[Scase]

So does that explain the countless times he looks off marion and AB cutting/fastbreaking to the basket just to pass to parker/kapono and watch them miss the shot?

We keep saying we have a good shooting team, newsflash we don't. We have SOME good shooters. AP and Kapono aren't them, AP is when he has a good game but that's about it. To have a PG make a pass for a shot instead of a cut to the basket where you have a higher percentage and a chance to draw a foul is absurd.

Countless times? Marion, grand total of 7 games, one game where he played 5 minutes. Kapono isn't a good shooter? Ill just laugh and move on. You post as if Jose misses every single time that happens, read my post again. I said Jose chooses to pass because he puts his teammates in the best position to score. He should hit Bargnani more inside but until this season he wasn't a factor, he's had a great resurgence and it SHOULD be on Jose to get him the ball more. I am 100% positive that Jose knows this, he isn't in the NBA because he's an idiot. He's in the NBA because he can play basketball and play it well. We saw him progress this far from being a PG who couldn't shoot, to tentative running the offense into a PG who can shoot the lights out and can run the show better then most PG in the league. He's shown us he can improve the weaknesses in his game and show a desire to be better. He gets back to 100% without any fear of pulling the hamstring again, gets to know a system where there's a defined role for players and gets some time to practice with his team, then people should make judgments. This season is a complete write off.

Referencing it as being only 7 games makes me believe you haven't been watching them very closely. Marion cuts to the basket so many times a night he puts the rest of the team to shame and I cannot recall more than a couple times Jose has actually hit him in the right spot.

The fact that you are defending Kapono as being a good shooter worries me, ANY NBA player is a good shooter when they are open and Kapono is no different. Reggie Miller, Ray Allen THEY are good shooters, JK is not.

Jose's progress has amounted to being a reliable shooter and that's about it. From last year he is virtually identical if not a little regressed. He has had pathetic defense since day one and has not improved on it in the slightest bit.

And the excuse for him not passing to cutters? Really stretching there, as I stated in another thread the majority of the time he simply passes to Bosh and Bosh gets HIM the assist not Jose getting bosh a clean look. Hense the reason he can play a game with an assist total of 16 and be virtually nonexistent.

I don't think hes a terrible PG I simply think he is average, but above all he is not the right type of PG needed for this team. Whether or not he can pass to a cutter, throw an actually well timed/placed ally-oop pass, drive and kick etc etc. Doesn't mean a damn thing if he doesn't actually DO it.

The hamstring excuse is getting old, sure it slows him down physically but does it affect his mental state? Knowing where to pass? I highly doubt that. The players in the system are pretty obviously defined, we all know what Bosh is expected to do and where to do it. I'm pretty sure we all know how AB operates and I REALLY don't think anyone will question the fact that Marion cuts basically all the time. People need to stop making excuse after excuse.

Jose is simply overhyped and not as good as Raptors fans think, we need a different look at the PG spot simple as that and if we could pull off fleecing another team by sending them Jose and getting back a nice starter caliber SG then I'm all for it.

[Fairview4Life]

I haven't seen Jose look off Marion or Bargs when they run more than maybe twice.

[BigShotBob13]

So does that explain the countless times he looks off marion and AB cutting/fastbreaking to the basket just to pass to parker/kapono and watch them miss the shot?

We keep saying we have a good shooting team, newsflash we don't. We have SOME good shooters. AP and Kapono aren't them, AP is when he has a good game but that's about it. To have a PG make a pass for a shot instead of a cut to the basket where you have a higher percentage and a chance to draw a foul is absurd.

Countless times? Marion, grand total of 7 games, one game where he played 5 minutes. Kapono isn't a good shooter? Ill just laugh and move on. You post as if Jose misses every single time that happens, read my post again. I said Jose chooses to pass because he puts his teammates in the best position to score. He should hit Bargnani more inside but until this season he wasn't a factor, he's had a great resurgence and it SHOULD be on Jose to get him the ball more. I am 100% positive that Jose knows this, he isn't in the NBA because he's an idiot. He's in the NBA because he can play basketball and play it well. We saw him progress this far from being a PG who couldn't shoot, to tentative running the offense into a PG who can shoot the lights out and can run the show better then most PG in the league. He's shown us he can improve the weaknesses in his game and show a desire to be better. He gets back to 100% without any fear of pulling the hamstring again, gets to know a system where there's a defined role for players and gets some time to practice with his team, then people should make judgments. This season is a complete write off.

Referencing it as being only 7 games makes me believe you haven't been watching them very closely. Marion cuts to the basket so many times a night he puts the rest of the team to shame and I cannot recall more than a couple times Jose has actually hit him in the right spot.

The fact that you are defending Kapono as being a good shooter worries me, ANY NBA player is a good shooter when they are open and Kapono is no different. Reggie Miller, Ray Allen THEY are good shooters, JK is not.

Jose's progress has amounted to being a reliable shooter and that's about it. From last year he is virtually identical if not a little regressed. He has had pathetic defense since day one and has not improved on it in the slightest bit.

And the excuse for him not passing to cutters? Really stretching there, as I stated in another thread the majority of the time he simply passes to Bosh and Bosh gets HIM the assist not Jose getting bosh a clean look. Hense the reason he can play a game with an assist total of 16 and be virtually nonexistent.

I don't think hes a terrible PG I simply think he is average, but above all he is not the right type of PG needed for this team. Whether or not he can pass to a cutter, throw an actually well timed/placed ally-oop pass, drive and kick etc etc. Doesn't mean a damn thing if he doesn't actually DO it.

The hamstring excuse is getting old, sure it slows him down physically but does it affect his mental state? Knowing where to pass? I highly doubt that. The players in the system are pretty obviously defined, we all know what Bosh is expected to do and where to do it. I'm pretty sure we all know how AB operates and I REALLY don't think anyone will question the fact that Marion cuts basically all the time. People need to stop making excuse after excuse.

Jose is simply overhyped and not as good as Raptors fans think, we need a different look at the PG spot simple as that and if we could pull off fleecing another team by sending them Jose and getting back a nice starter caliber SG then I'm all for it.

EDIT: Look below

[J-Roc]

Better perimeter D would certainly help B&B. But also, I say B&B need to score MORE than they're doing now.

It's like Steve Nash. For him to be effective, he needs to show more on O than he gives up on D. Sure, his numbers were decent under Terry Porter's system. But that wasn't enough. He needed to put up even more numbers.

[BigShotBob13]

Referencing it as being only 7 games makes me believe you haven't been watching them very closely. Marion cuts to the basket so many times a night he puts the rest of the team to shame and I cannot recall more than a couple times Jose has actually hit him in the right spot.

The fact that you are defending Kapono as being a good shooter worries me, ANY NBA player is a good shooter when they are open and Kapono is no different. Reggie Miller, Ray Allen THEY are good shooters, JK is not.

Jose's progress has amounted to being a reliable shooter and that's about it. From last year he is virtually identical if not a little regressed. He has had pathetic defense since day one and has not improved on it in the slightest bit.

And the excuse for him not passing to cutters? Really stretching there, as I stated in another thread the majority of the time he simply passes to Bosh and Bosh gets HIM the assist not Jose getting bosh a clean look. Hense the reason he can play a game with an assist total of 16 and be virtually nonexistent.

I don't think hes a terrible PG I simply think he is average, but above all he is not the right type of PG needed for this team. Whether or not he can pass to a cutter, throw an actually well timed/placed ally-oop pass, drive and kick etc etc. Doesn't mean a damn thing if he doesn't actually DO it.

The hamstring excuse is getting old, sure it slows him down physically but does it affect his mental state? Knowing where to pass? I highly doubt that. The players in the system are pretty obviously defined, we all know what Bosh is expected to do and where to do it. I'm pretty sure we all know how AB operates and I REALLY don't think anyone will question the fact that Marion cuts basically all the time. People need to stop making excuse after excuse.

Jose is simply overhyped and not as good as Raptors fans think, we need a different look at the PG spot simple as that and if we could pull off fleecing another team by sending them Jose and getting back a nice starter caliber SG then I'm all for it.

I have been watching, you see one thing, I see another. Marion cuts to the net and he should get the ball, Jose needs to deliver it. The one thing Jose should not do is deliver it to him when he's in a bad spot, whats the point of running when you get a pass and you go nowhere with it. It's a dead end. Jose can improve in those areas and like I said, practice, practice and more practice with this in mind changes a lot. You seem to think that just because Marion does these things that it automatically generates points. Most times I see him make that pass, Marion gets stopped. He pulls it out and then tries driving. What was the point of initiating a pass when it goes nowhere?

ANY NBA player can be a good shooter? Yeah, go back to watching Voshkul hoist up ugly jumpers...oh wait, we have Marion on our team you're golden boy. He throws the ball at the net. Good luck with that argument, that really scares me. Allen, Miller they are great shooters and guys who can change games with their shooting. I don't expect that from JK, neither should you. In your book though, we should give JK shots to Voshkul or Marion from 3. Do you see how fallible your argument is?

Jose's progression has lead to him getting a 5 year, 8 million dollar contract to be an NBA starting PG on this team. Where don't you see progression? If Roko does the same then that's amazing, two diamonds in the rough that Babcock found. You may see no progression, but then again, you said ANY NBA player can be a good shooter. If Jose comes back next year and addresses all the problems you see in his game, do you think you've made a mistake or he's still just an average PG?

Your assist idea is getting old. Do you know the definition of an assist in basketball?

An assist is a pass that directly leads to a basket. This can be a pass to the low post that leads to a direct score, a long pass for a layup, a fast break pass to a teammate for a layup, and/or a pass that results in an open perimeter shot for a teammate. In basketball, an assist is awarded only if, in the judgement of the statistician, the last player's pass contributed directly to a made basket. An assist can be awarded for a basket scored after the ball has been dribbled if the player's pass led to the field goal being made.

Last time I checked, 16 assists means 32 or more points. Regardless of your definition of being non-existent or not. As someone on this board made the comment towards me, "You get on an NBA court and make ONE assist then you can bash the guy who made 16 assists". Bosh may "get" Jose his assists but in the end, Jose initiates what he thinks is the best play at that moment. BTW in Houston, Jose had 6 assists to both Bargs and Bosh, 2 each to Marion and JK. Marion had an alley-oop and a jumper. There's your alley-oop you wanted. Would 16 alley-oop assists make a better definition for you as an impact PG? Oh, BTW, this shows you the amount of production by anyone else on the court, when his 16 assists are through 4 players. Gives you a better idea what the main problem is doesn't it?

Hamstring getting old? Do you even know how difficult it is to play with a nagging injury like that? The consequences if he pulls it seriously or even tears it? If he did that just for the sake of pushing the ball faster and driving to the hoop more, where would that leave us? He would be useless, no one would take a trade for him. This season is lost, that much is apparent. Why should he risk injury and take us down even more? I think that if you think logically about it, Jose does deliver the ball to Bosh, he does deliver the ball to AB and I agree he has to look more for Marion. The rest of this team is non-existent and you blame the one player that is actually doing his job properly? He may not be doing it to the absolute extent of his abilities but you seem to think he has no room to grow and develop any more.

He's a good PG, he's not at CP3 level, Kidd level or Billups but he plays to his strengths and he should try to do more. He has room to develop and get better, that is for certain. This season has been up and down and all over. JT can't implement any sort of system, first we have uptempo, then we slow it down, then we try 3 bigs, then we go back to a traditional, then we go back...everyone harps about how it affects AB but affects the 4 other guys on the court as well. Now we're back to uptempo and it's producing results, yet everyone blames the guy that is actually running the show. We've had 7 games and the only blip was the Knick disaster. Other than that, did you expect this team to win any more then those games?

This team has far greater problems then Jose running the point. We have ZERO bench production, our wings show up once every 5 games and we have injuries on top of injuries. We need to address those problems first instead of trying to remove the only solid parts of our lineup.

Good luck trading him and his BYC. He's our PG for now and the near future. I hope he produces on the court and gets this team more wins. In the end, people label him as the main problem of a season gone completely wrong. He's not and it's up to BC to surround him with a better complementary wing player to make his game better. No PG is perfect, everyone is expecting Jose to be but whatever PG we do have in the fold, people here will find faults regardless.

[djsunyc]

thank you BSB13. anybody that gets 16 assists is not part of the problem. his shooting is lethal. he gives the ball up. his teammates love him. why get rid of a player like that on a very reasonable deal?

[Scase]

Wall of text

First off Marion is hardly my golden boy lol, I wasn't a supporter of the trade and still don't think he's worth the banks contract but he does things this team needed to do. Just because he isn't going to score doesn't mean he should be looked off. He's cutting it breaks up the defense and allows him to kick it out to someone open. You know that thing jose never does?

As for the shots, they shouldn't be going to JK Jake OR Marion. 2 of them are bad shooters and JK needs specific plays run for him which our coaching staff can't seem to figure out or they are just too easy to defend against cause the opposing teams know he will shoot and just to close out on him.

Again yes 16 assists is nice in theory but when a good 80% of them stem from passing to one or two guys and the basket only being scored because of the players skill in shooting instead of having an open look it degrades the impact of said assists. I never said they AREN'T assists I said they aren't IMPACT assists.

You say we have bigger problems to take care of, to which I agree. But how do you intend on taking care of them without trading any assets? You wanna trade Joey, JK, Jake, Banks, Obryant? Good luck getting anything for them. Jose isn't the type of PG this team needs he's better at a half court game, so you try to exchange the asset that doesn't fit for something that does.

[sl64]

our 3 bigs getting 21.8 is a credit to jose for getting them the ball where they like it.

we just don't have that balance at the SG spot to create offense when defenses clamp down.

I don't give Jose much credit because he doesn't deserve it. A lot of NBA PGs can run the pick and pop just like Calderon runs it and rack up assists. When you watch Calderon do you ever notice him making a great pass? No because it never happens. He makes the pass that he has to make because there are no other options. Most of his assists tonight came off of the high pick and pop with Bosh/Bargs who were both making their shots.

+1

I was watching the Mavs-Spurs game last night and I was shocked to see so many good passes being made. Kidd was making ridiculous thread-the-needle passes all game and Parker, though not really known for passing, always seemed to make the right pass and more importantly actually drives and kicks to create open looks... imagine that. Watching Calderon play, you NEVER really see any passes that make you think "wow that was a nice pass". It's always just the safe conservative pass to the guy coming off the pick or someone hovering around the 3 point line.

As for the shots, they shouldn't be going to JK Jake OR Marion. 2 of them are bad shooters and JK needs specific plays run for him which our coaching staff can't seem to figure out or they are just too easy to defend against cause the opposing teams know he will shoot and just to close out on him.

God forbid they actually sit him down and tell him to stop being a moron and trying to create off the dribble. The coaching is atrocious, don't get me wrong... they can't even figure out 1 play to get their 3 point shooter open? Really? That's gotta be some kind of litmus test of coaching, and Triano & co. (and Smitch) fail it. But most of his problem is on his end, that he has no feel for the game and is also stupid.

[BigShotBob13]

Whatever was posted

Look, I said was you can't move Jose. Despite your closed minded thinking. His BYC makes it near impossible to move him. After that all we have is crap. It's not my fault that the GM has decided to stack this team with a crap bench and worthless role players. This team has far larger problems then Jose and if you think moving him will solve all of them, then I'm glad you aren't the GM. You just fill one hole and leave another wide open.

[SkywalkerAC]

isn't jose non-BYC after the season is over?