Moon VS Marion

[The Notic]

I love how the guy who is arguably the most overrated player of the decade because of people simply looking at his statistical output has suddenly become an intangibles guy who's impact on the game is unmeasurable. Seriously. This is great stuff.

[rdtx2005]

I love how the guy who is arguably the most overrated player of the decade because of people simply looking at his statistical output has suddenly become an intangibles guy who's impact on the game is unmeasurable. Seriously. This is great stuff.

so are you saying that Jamario Moon would call out the team for putting out no energy? or that Jamario Moon would help the Raptors revive their fast break game that was non-existent even when Moon was here?

Stats are one thing.. but not the only thing... you are just doing the same thing, but in the opposite sense.. you are downplaying the 'impact' on the game because you feel the stats are more important.

goes both ways.

[CPT]

Anyone who is still defending this trade is a **** (Please Use More Appropriate Word), straight up. Just stop talking about it. Pretend it didn't happen. If someone bashes it, just ignore it. Anything else just makes you look stupid.

Anyone who says crap like that doesn't know much about the CBA or the Raps committed salaries before and after the trade.

Right.

I definitely don't know that we are practically married to Marion unless we want to renounce everyone and use our little bit of cap space to fill about a third of our roster.

Nor do I know that taking on Marcus Banks cuts into any financial benefit acquiring Marion could have given us.

I sure as hell don't know that we gave up a lot to get that horrible contract of O'Neal's that we had to get rid of at all costs 8 months later.

What part of the CBA would lead you to believe that throwing in first round draft picks and starters/rotation players making $700,000 is a good move?

[The Notic]

so are you saying that Jamario Moon would call out the team? or that Jamario Moon would help the Raptors revive their fast break game?

Marion is not a leader in any bigger way than Moon was. He somehow found himself unhappy on 60 win teams because he felt he wasn't getting the credit. His attitude in Miami was not liked.

What fast break game have we revived, exactly? We've been in the bottom 10 pace-wise for like 2+ years now.

Stats are one thing.. but not the only thing... you are just doing the same thing, but in the opposite sense.. you are downplaying the 'impact' on the game because you feel the stats are more important.

goes both ways.

No. It's just funny that Shawn Marion is somehow getting this undeserved intangibles tag at the point of his career where he can no longer put up the numbers that use to justify his worth.

[Reignman]

Taking into consideration that if BC resigns Marion it won't be for his current salary, it'll be in the $10 mil range then there is no comparison.

The biggest difference between the two is Marion helps facilitate the offense while Moon relies on others for looks and definately doesn't generate any looks for others. Marion can shoot, pass and understands how to find spots that help out his scrubby teammates when they are trapped or need to be bailed out.

And this is with Marion playing with a point guard that does nothing for his game. Wait till we find a different point guard this offseason who has decent court vision and can run a bit and I think Marion can go back to a 18/10 player for another year or 2.

[The Notic]

Taking into consideration that if BC resigns Marion it won't be for his current salary, it'll be in the $10 mil range then there is no comparison.

Good stuff. Really solid so far.

The biggest difference between the two is Marion helps facilitate the offense while Moon relies on others for looks and definately doesn't generate any looks for others. Marion can shoot, pass and understands how to find spots that help out his scrubby teammates when they are trapped or need to be bailed out.

This is true. Marion does do this.

And this is with Marion playing with a point guard that does nothing for his game. Wait till we find a different point guard this offseason who has decent court vision and can run a bit and I think Marion can go back to a 18/10 player for another year or 2.

AARGGHH. You couldn't hold it in, could you? You had to slip this in. Hack.

[Fairview4Life]

Anyone who is still defending this trade is a **** (Please Use More Appropriate Word), straight up. Just stop talking about it. Pretend it didn't happen. If someone bashes it, just ignore it. Anything else just makes you look stupid.

Anyone who says crap like that doesn't know much about the CBA or the Raps committed salaries before and after the trade.

Right.

I definitely don't know that we are practically married to Marion unless we want to renounce everyone and use our little bit of cap space to fill about a third of our roster.

Nor do I know that taking on Marcus Banks cuts into any financial benefit acquiring Marion could have given us.

I sure as hell don't know that we gave up a lot to get that horrible contract of O'Neal's that we had to get rid of at all costs 8 months later.

What part of the CBA would lead you to believe that throwing in first round draft picks and starters/rotation players making $700,000 is a good move?

Marcus Banks doesn't cut into flexibility in 2010 like JO's raise does in 2009. The Raps would have the same team next season, with more minimum salary players and no Moon or AP unless they paid luxury tax, if they didn't move JO. The same team minus Moon and AP, that has failed miserably. And with the drop in lux tax coming it's not even a guarantee they wouldn't be paying it anyway. The part of the CBA that makes me believe throwing in a non lotto 1st round pick and a player who would not be on the team the next season anyway (and who's salary would be better used on other positions if the Raps keep Marion) is the part that talks about the second team actually agreeing to the trade in order for it to be made official.

[rdtx2005]

Marion is not a leader in any bigger way than Moon was. He somehow found himself unhappy on 60 win teams because he felt he wasn't getting the credit. His attitude in Miami was not liked.

and why has been there articles about Shawn Marion calling out the Raptors squad for not "bringing" it? Or are you just using the fallacy that "past events will predict future outcomes"?

He may not be a leader to the 100% definition of a leader. but he has 'changed' the team.

What fast break game have we revived, exactly? We've been in the bottom 10 pace-wise for like 2+ years now.

Marion comes in.. and immediately we have out BEST fast break game of the year. and another poster (probably Supersub15) posted that our pace has dramatically increased SINCE the Marion trade.

again.. you are using "past events predicting the future" without actually seeing it with your own eyes.

No. It's just funny that Shawn Marion is somehow getting this undeserved intangibles tag at the point of his career where he can no longer put up the numbers that use to justify his worth.

how is it undeserved that he brings a different 'dynamic' to the Raptors?

[Reignman]

Taking into consideration that if BC resigns Marion it won't be for his current salary, it'll be in the $10 mil range then there is no comparison.

Good stuff. Really solid so far.

The biggest difference between the two is Marion helps facilitate the offense while Moon relies on others for looks and definately doesn't generate any looks for others. Marion can shoot, pass and understands how to find spots that help out his scrubby teammates when they are trapped or need to be bailed out.

This is true. Marion does do this.

And this is with Marion playing with a point guard that does nothing for his game. Wait till we find a different point guard this offseason who has decent court vision and can run a bit and I think Marion can go back to a 18/10 player for another year or 2.

AARGGHH. You couldn't hold it in, could you? You had to slip this in. Hack.[/quote]

LOL. Do you disagree? You really think Jose is the type of point guard that'll bring out the best in a player like Marion? He's the anti-Nash. Anyway, it might sting, but it's the truth.

[J-Roc]

Moon won't be a crunch time defensive player for Miami. They will lose in the playoffs and they will not go anywhere next year. Miami is doing nothing this season and next. Not sure how they "won" anything.

Raps needed to see what a Marion type guy could or couldn't accomplish with Bosh and Bargnani. Just finding out that it doesn't work it something we had to find out to move on.

[Winggfly]

No one on the team can make Marion a better player, like Chris Webber said during the All Star weekend, Marion is a complimentary player, you need someone on the team who can make him better.

As for Moon, pretty much the same thing, although I think Marion is more Athletic than him, but since Moon has Wade, Moon becomes a better player than he was in Toronto.

Moon is actually dunking now, making the highlight reels!

[The Notic]

and why has been there articles about Shawn Marion calling out the Raptors squad for not "bringing" it? Or are you just using the fallacy that "past events will predict future outcomes"?

He may not be a leader to the 100% definition of a leader. but he has 'changed' the team.

How has he changed us, exactly? Whatever way he's changed us it hasn't reflected in the wins-loss columns. I'm going with what I've seen/heard/read from Marion and those around him in the past 5+ years over the past few weeks of being with the Raptors.

Marion comes in.. and immediately we have out BEST fast break game of the year. and another poster (probably Supersub15) posted that our pace has dramatically increased SINCE the Marion trade.

again.. you are using "past events predicting the future" without actually seeing it with your own eyes.

You specifically used the word 'revive'. So yes, past events are relevant in the discussion when you say something has been 'revived'.

how is it undeserved that he brings a different 'dynamic' to the Raptors?

Marion's worth has always lied in his statistical output. That's how his All-Star and All-NBA selections were justified even though he really couldn't do what other star wings could do with regards to creating their own offense or making their teammates better. Now that he's not able to produce the same kind of numbers, his intangibles are being used to justify his worth. It's funny.

Does this new 'dynamic' translate to wins-losses btw?

[garbagnani]

One big difference: Which one has the most upside vs the big contract? Wade said Moon was one of the best athletes in the NBA. All he needs is some coaching. Potentially he's way better than Marion around the basket, shooting and defense. Miami uses him to cover the best scorer. Every Miami commentator says he's much better than Marion already. But I guess BC figured he just wasn't worth the $750.000.

Wrong, BC figured that he had to trade JO, and obviously Miami wanted Moon. Its the cost of doing business, to get something you want you have to give up something you might not want to part with.

[CPT]

Anyone who says crap like that doesn't know much about the CBA or the Raps committed salaries before and after the trade.

Right.

I definitely don't know that we are practically married to Marion unless we want to renounce everyone and use our little bit of cap space to fill about a third of our roster.

Nor do I know that taking on Marcus Banks cuts into any financial benefit acquiring Marion could have given us.

I sure as hell don't know that we gave up a lot to get that horrible contract of O'Neal's that we had to get rid of at all costs 8 months later.

What part of the CBA would lead you to believe that throwing in first round draft picks and starters/rotation players making $700,000 is a good move?

Marcus Banks doesn't cut into flexibility in 2010 like JO's raise does in 2009. The Raps would have the same team next season, with more minimum salary players and no Moon or AP unless they paid luxury tax, if they didn't move JO. The same team minus Moon and AP, that has failed miserably. And with the drop in lux tax coming it's not even a guarantee they wouldn't be paying it anyway. The part of the CBA that makes me believe throwing in a non lotto 1st round pick and a player who would not be on the team the next season anyway (and who's salary would be better used on other positions if the Raps keep Marion) is the part that talks about the second team actually agreeing to the trade in order for it to be made official.

I guess I'm just one of the people who believes Miami would have taken the deal for a lot less in the final hour. The cap space provided by Marion's expiring was of no use to them, they wanted a C for the home stretch and playoffs this year, and they wanted to dump Banks. They got everything they wanted and picked up a starter and a 1st round pick for their trouble.

If we would have had the same team minus Moon and AP going into next year, that would have been the case even if JO had worked out here. That's just piss poor planning, so I'm sorry if I'm not impressed that BC paid out the ass to fix a problem he created himself.

I also believe that JO's deal would have held more value in a trade this offseason or as late as next year's trade deadline. If that would have scared Bosh away (the usual argument against waiting), then I wouldn't want him here anyway. He's a smart enough guy to evaluate the Raps' future next summer, whether the changes come sooner or later. If not, I don't think we should be falling all over ourselves to pay him $20 million+ a year.

The trade looked bad at the time, it's looking worse now as Moon does well in Miami, and it's going to look downright horrible in a year or two when we're tied to Marion making $10 million a year to put up 10/7 and forking over our 14-16 pick to Miami.

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To the guy talking about a new PG coming in to revive Marion's career....come the **** on. Even if we trade Calderon, it won't be for a PG better than he is.

[djsunyc]

what is the point of this thread?

marion is a raptor. jermaine + moon were not helping us. you compare to what jermaine + moon did with us VS. what marion does for us...not what they do for the heat...who cares what they do for the heat?

Because that is their value.

Were people so pissed off at the VC trade because we gave up a guy putting up 16 ppg on 41% shooting?

Anyone who is still defending this trade is a **** (Please Use More Appropriate Word), straight up. Just stop talking about it. Pretend it didn't happen. If someone bashes it, just ignore it. Anything else just makes you look stupid.

again i ask, why does it matter what jermaine + moon are doing for miami? they weren't doing it for us, that's all that matters.

one man's garbage is another man's treasure.

i'll put it to you this way...you have a vcr at home but only own dvd's. your friend has vhs tapes but only has a dvd player. the vcr ain't doing anything for you and the dvd player ain't doing anything for your friend. so you guys decide to swap. bingo, now you can watch your dvd's and your friend can watch his vhs tapes.

but again, as long as you can watch dvd's, it really doesn't matter what your friend does now, does it?

you are looking and searching for any reason to dislike this trade b/c you want to. it's still a good trade for us. jermaine didn't improve us and moon was playing poorly.

[The Notic]

Moon won't be a crunch time defensive player for Miami. They will lose in the playoffs and they will not go anywhere next year. Miami is doing nothing this season and next.

lol @ 'crunch time defensive player'. also, great job of predicting how the future will play out. what exactly is doing 'nothing'. not winning a title? not making the second round? be specific so i can quote this when miami does it.

[garbagnani]

and why has been there articles about Shawn Marion calling out the Raptors squad for not "bringing" it? Or are you just using the fallacy that "past events will predict future outcomes"?

He may not be a leader to the 100% definition of a leader. but he has 'changed' the team.

How has he changed us, exactly? Whatever way he's changed us it hasn't reflected in the wins-loss columns. I'm going with what I've seen/heard/read from Marion and those around him in the past 5+ years over the past few weeks of being with the Raptors.

Marion comes in.. and immediately we have out BEST fast break game of the year. and another poster (probably Supersub15) posted that our pace has dramatically increased SINCE the Marion trade.

again.. you are using "past events predicting the future" without actually seeing it with your own eyes.

You specifically used the word 'revive'. So yes, past events are relevant in the discussion when you say something has been 'revived'.

how is it undeserved that he brings a different 'dynamic' to the Raptors?

Marion's worth has always lied in his statistical output. That's how his All-Star and All-NBA selections were justified even though he really couldn't do what other star wings could do with regards to creating their own offense or making their teammates better. Now that he's not able to produce the same kind of numbers, his intangibles are being used to justify his worth. It's funny.

Does this new 'dynamic' translate to wins-losses btw?

this move was made for 2009. don;t you get it?

of course moon is going to look better next to wade, wade demands double teams, and creates. Wade is a special player, the type of player that truely improves his teammates around him. This doesn;t mean that moon is any good. I don;t miss him at all. he was horrible here. Miami wanted him in order to take on JO its simple.

On another note. It seems ridiculous to me that Miami gets credit for making a good trade. Had they not acquired Marion in the first place they would still have Shaq. Shaq is 10 times better than JO. The way Shaq is playing I would think him and wade could hav edone some damage

[Reignman]

Right.

I definitely don't know that we are practically married to Marion unless we want to renounce everyone and use our little bit of cap space to fill about a third of our roster.

Nor do I know that taking on Marcus Banks cuts into any financial benefit acquiring Marion could have given us.

I sure as hell don't know that we gave up a lot to get that horrible contract of O'Neal's that we had to get rid of at all costs 8 months later.

What part of the CBA would lead you to believe that throwing in first round draft picks and starters/rotation players making $700,000 is a good move?

Marcus Banks doesn't cut into flexibility in 2010 like JO's raise does in 2009. The Raps would have the same team next season, with more minimum salary players and no Moon or AP unless they paid luxury tax, if they didn't move JO. The same team minus Moon and AP, that has failed miserably. And with the drop in lux tax coming it's not even a guarantee they wouldn't be paying it anyway. The part of the CBA that makes me believe throwing in a non lotto 1st round pick and a player who would not be on the team the next season anyway (and who's salary would be better used on other positions if the Raps keep Marion) is the part that talks about the second team actually agreeing to the trade in order for it to be made official.

I guess I'm just one of the people who believes Miami would have taken the deal for a lot less in the final hour. The cap space provided by Marion's expiring was of no use to them, they wanted a C for the home stretch and playoffs this year, and they wanted to dump Banks. They got everything they wanted and picked up a starter and a 1st round pick for their trouble.

If we would have had the same team minus Moon and AP going into next year, that would have been the case even if JO had worked out here. That's just piss poor planning, so I'm sorry if I'm not impressed that BC paid out the ass to fix a problem he created himself.

I also believe that JO's deal would have held more value in a trade this offseason or as late as next year's trade deadline. If that would have scared Bosh away (the usual argument against waiting), then I wouldn't want him here anyway. He's a smart enough guy to evaluate the Raps' future next summer, whether the changes come sooner or later. If not, I don't think we should be falling all over ourselves to pay him $20 million+ a year.

The trade looked bad at the time, it's looking worse now as Moon does well in Miami, and it's going to look downright horrible in a year or two when we're tied to Marion making $10 million a year to put up 10/7 and forking over our 14-16 pick to Miami.

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To the guy talking about a new PG coming in to revive Marion's career....come the **** on. Even if we trade Calderon, it won't be for a PG better than he is.

I didn't say better, I said different. I'm not going into a detailed explanation on what I mean, I've said it too many times already.

[Fairview4Life]

Miami now has $69 million in salary next year, tied up in 11 players. With the drop in lux tax and the salary cap that is expected next year, they will be tied to more min salary guys and I really doubt they have Moon next season either.

The Raps had to make it worthwhile for the Heat to agree to be the same middling team next season. They did it by adding Moon instead of Solomon (the Raps had to add one of them to get below the lux tax this season), adding a non lotto 1st, and taking on Banks' 4 million deal. Miami taking the deal for "a lot" less is silly. Moon, non lotto 1st, and Banks' 2010 contract is already very little in the big scheme of things.

With the utter failure of the Raps with JO, he had to be moved. I don't know what you think was going to be available for his expiring deal next year, but with Paul Allen not even trading his expiring for a guy like Carter, why do you think MLSE would sign off on something like that next season? Especially with the cap and tax set to drop even further, and a potential lock out on the way.

[TO_Raptors]

Moon is a dummy.... He played like a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) for us. Taking too many outside shots. Now with Riley and Wade telling him if he does that they will make sure he never plays in the league again, he is listening.... But al Chris Bosh would want him to do is play dressup like a chick....lol Damn Rupaul...