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Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players

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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#41 » by Undefeated » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:41 pm

UssjTrunks wrote:Bargs was atrocious for a good part of the season, that's why his PPG is so low, and his efficiency even lower. He's definitely not a very efficient player, but is certainly not the 5th least productive.


You mean to say that Bargnani is definitely not a very efficient player for the first-half of the season... When you’re told to play a different position in the starting line-up (SF) that you had never even played in your career, getting yanked in and out of the starting 5 and a coaching change, I doubt you would be very consistent/efficient. By next season, I can guarantee you Bargnani will be a very efficient player for the team and be sure to see his PER to go up in every category...
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#42 » by Dam » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:30 pm

hahahahahaaaa...
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#43 » by forrestek » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:51 am

Anyone that knows bball knows that they see in AB! I know, I know, there are a lot of very negative soccer wieners on this board...

If it’s not plain as day in actually watching games, the stats for AB this season (where 1/2 the season for various reasons he sucked, and the whole season he boxed out and let rebounds fall to teammates) were:

Net PER (82games):
PF = -1.4
C = -0.7

This is a young big on the Raps this season who has shown that he can:
1. Create his own shot!!!
2. Play solid man D on PFs or Centres
3. Shoot high percentage 3s, has developed a mid-range game, and a post game before our eyes!
4. Has incredible court vision and passing skills for a big
5. And he has just started to show what he is capable of; he has the tools to be much better than Dirk or Ocur.

I'll go on record to say AB will be a stud. He has a swagger and an edge and I would take him over any other player on the roster to build a team around.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#44 » by A_wildstabatanything » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:11 am

Jason Michaels wrote:
+1

The funnier aspect is how Bargnani is supposed to be a good defender - this would be why the Raptors have CB4 guard the most imposing big man from the opposing team, or risk the likes of Brook Lopez et al having career nights on AB.



Now you're just talking out of your ass. Bargnani is almost always given the toughest defensive matchup - Yao, Shaq, Dwight, Big Z, Duncan, Gasol, etc.

Brook Lopez's highest scoring game against the Raptors was 14 points and he scored at least 12 of them against JO. In our first game against the Nets Lopez was carving up O'Neal in the post.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#45 » by Kabookalu » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:20 am

I think what attributes to this atrocious outcome for AB in this statistic is that he doesn't grab a lot of rebounds. However, it's not to say that he has no value in the rebounding department, he has a lot of impact but they don't show in the boxscores. Unfortunately for him, he's going to be the loser in a lot of these types of statistics, so I wouldn't worry about it. If he's only able to be a 6rpg guy for his career but with the boxing out ability of Bill Laimbeer, I would be ecstatic.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#46 » by RapsGirl » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:45 am

A_wildstabatanything wrote:
Jason Michaels wrote:
+1

The funnier aspect is how Bargnani is supposed to be a good defender - this would be why the Raptors have CB4 guard the most imposing big man from the opposing team, or risk the likes of Brook Lopez et al having career nights on AB.



Now you're just talking out of your ass. Bargnani is almost always given the toughest defensive matchup - Yao, Shaq, Dwight, Big Z, Duncan, Gasol, etc.

Brook Lopez's highest scoring game against the Raptors was 14 points and he scored at least 12 of them against JO. In our first game against the Nets Lopez was carving up O'Neal in the post.


go back & watch those games. Bosh had to "take over" AB's defensive assignment far too often. which IMO is dumb b/c it put him in risk of picking up unnecessary fouls.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#47 » by ItsDanger » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:11 am

This is BS. With all the mediocre players getting a lot of minutes, how can this be valid?
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#48 » by gloriousthree » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:29 pm

RapsGirl wrote:
A_wildstabatanything wrote:
Jason Michaels wrote:
+1

The funnier aspect is how Bargnani is supposed to be a good defender - this would be why the Raptors have CB4 guard the most imposing big man from the opposing team, or risk the likes of Brook Lopez et al having career nights on AB.



Now you're just talking out of your ass. Bargnani is almost always given the toughest defensive matchup - Yao, Shaq, Dwight, Big Z, Duncan, Gasol, etc.

Brook Lopez's highest scoring game against the Raptors was 14 points and he scored at least 12 of them against JO. In our first game against the Nets Lopez was carving up O'Neal in the post.


go back & watch those games. Bosh had to "take over" AB's defensive assignment far too often. which IMO is dumb b/c it put him in risk of picking up unnecessary fouls.


The only player that really killed AB and where Bosh had to take over consistently was Big Z. In all the other cases it was because AB was getting in foul trouble (especially against Dwight with BS fouls), AB was on the bench to get his rest or when Triano wanted to throw some different looks at an opponent (it's called strategy).
Very few centers have had career nights against us this season and that is to the credit of our guys. AB may not be a great defender, something no one will claim, but he's definetly not a bad one either.

Edit: Against Shaq in Phoenix both AB and Bosh were getting their arses handed to them.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#49 » by Duncanfan » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:03 pm

forrestek wrote:Anyone that knows bball knows that they see in AB! I know, I know, there are a lot of very negative soccer wieners on this board...

If it’s not plain as day in actually watching games, the stats for AB this season (where 1/2 the season for various reasons he sucked, and the whole season he boxed out and let rebounds fall to teammates) were:

Net PER (82games):
PF = -1.4
C = -0.7

This is a young big on the Raps this season who has shown that he can:
1. Create his own shot!!!
2. Play solid man D on PFs or Centres
3. Shoot high percentage 3s, has developed a mid-range game, and a post game before our eyes!
4. Has incredible court vision and passing skills for a big
5. And he has just started to show what he is capable of; he has the tools to be much better than Dirk or Ocur.

I'll go on record to say AB will be a stud. He has a swagger and an edge and I would take him over any other player on the roster to build a team around.



Huh?? Backing down a PG for a turn around J in the post is NOT post game! As for his passing and "incredible" court vision, one good pass every 40 games doesn't make him an incredible passer
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#50 » by Kakapato » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:37 pm

Duncanfan wrote:Huh?? Backing down a PG for a turn around J in the post is NOT post game!


Why in the hell should he back down a PF or C when he can beat them at midrange driving to the basket???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L4vuuveD30

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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#51 » by RockTHECasbah » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:04 pm

BTW Bosh is often listed as a C on 82games
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#52 » by JN » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:58 pm

A large reason that he is in the bottom five is because he played so many minutes. Basically you have a score per minute and they multiply by minutes played to get your overall rating. So two equally crappy players, the one who plays more, is deemed as less productive.... or a guy who plays much less and is worse on the floor then you, but only plays 20% of your minutes, is not seen as least productive.

I would rather the rating be normalized to per48. and tha ranking be done for all players with over 500 minutes. Almost all in the bottom 45 are worst per minute, and some much more so. He might be in the 20-25th percentile (wild ass guess) on a per minute basis. Not great.

I would imagine this formula heavily values offensive rebounds, steals and turnovers as they generate extra possessions.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#53 » by garbagnani » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:06 pm

RockTHECasbah wrote:BTW Bosh is often listed as a C on 82games


bosh never played C for us. Bargs always plays C
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#54 » by RockTHECasbah » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:43 pm

garbagnani wrote:
RockTHECasbah wrote:BTW Bosh is often listed as a C on 82games


bosh never played C for us. Bargs always plays C


Bosh is often listed as a C on 82games

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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#55 » by J-Roc » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:52 pm

If the stats say he's a C, then he's a C.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#56 » by Eating a Book » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:39 pm

J-Roc wrote:If the stats say he's a C, then he's a C.


J-Roc wrote:Stats never mean much to me.


viewtopic.php?f=32&t=897307&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

This is definitive, yes?
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#57 » by J-Roc » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:46 pm

Scrapdoomfraud wrote:
J-Roc wrote:If the stats say he's a C, then he's a C.


J-Roc wrote:Stats never mean much to me.


viewtopic.php?f=32&t=897307&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

This is definitive, yes?


I'm glad I didn't have to make it green for people to get it. But just in case....yes, I think stats are vastly overrated.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#58 » by Eating a Book » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:47 pm

J-Roc wrote:
Scrapdoomfraud wrote:
J-Roc wrote:If the stats say he's a C, then he's a C.


J-Roc wrote:Stats never mean much to me.


viewtopic.php?f=32&t=897307&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60

This is definitive, yes?


I'm glad I didn't have to make it green for people to get it. But just in case....yes, I think stats are vastly overrated.


Statistically, that's not true.
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#59 » by J-Roc » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:53 pm

Scrapdoomfraud wrote:
J-Roc wrote:
I'm glad I didn't have to make it green for people to get it. But just in case....yes, I think stats are vastly overrated.


Statistically, that's not true.


Depends on your definition of "vastly overrated".
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Re: Article: AB and JK are 5th/6th LEAST productive players 

Post#60 » by Eating a Book » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:58 pm

J-Roc wrote:
Scrapdoomfraud wrote:
J-Roc wrote:
I'm glad I didn't have to make it green for people to get it. But just in case....yes, I think stats are vastly overrated.


Statistically, that's not true.


Depends on your definition of "vastly overrated".

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