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Jermaine was causing problems from the start

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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#21 » by jonny three time » Fri May 22, 2009 5:31 am

I'm not really surprised to hear it. JO was very selfish on the offensive end and didn't care much about his own personal shot selection, so it makes sense that he would say something about his lack of touches even when the team was winning. Star players are like that even when they're over-the-hill. I'm just glad he's gone.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#22 » by Kabookalu » Fri May 22, 2009 5:34 am

J-Roc wrote:Uhh, because Bargnani is better than Mo or Robin Lopez. More suited to learn what was being taught. It's not just that JO passed along some stuff, but Bargnani learned it.


Better than those guys? You're missing the point here, I don't even know what you're talking about. People are saying that JO was a great mentor for Bargnani because of his improvements. People also forget that he went to a big man camp last offseason. I've seen some of the big man camps on TV and the one Bargnani went to is supposedly the best the country has to offer. They train you like it's boot camp. I'm much more inclined to believe his substantial improvement as a big man came from big man camp, not from a past his prime JO who tries blocking everything in sight, is an overrated rebounder, and whose offensive game mainly consists of shooting fadeaways.

What part of JO did Bargnani learn from again? Is it his tendency to block everything in sight? I don't think so, most of Bargnani's blocks have come straight up from his man and he's a very mediocre, sometimes even poor, help defender. Is it his fadeaway jumpshooting? No, because Bargnani is still largely a perimeter oriented big whose game consists of coming and shooting off of screens, pump faking, and driving to the basket. The only time he posts up is when he has a mismatch which he has been doing for the past two seasons previous to this one. Man defense? Perhaps, since he actually has a player to guard in practice that posts up, but he's always been a solid man defender and his man defense hasn't improved that much, and I'm pretty sure big man camp had more to do with the improvement then JO.

So again, what did Bargnani learn from JO? If Bargnani doesn't go to big man camp, how much would he have improved simply by having JO mentor him? I'm not saying he didn't have any positive impact on his game, but if anything JO's influence wasn't anything large.

evilRyu wrote:FWIW, Bargnani did come out and admit that JO was one of the best things that's happened to him.


Yeah I remember that, but how much of learning from JO can actually be accumulated into Bargnani's improvement? What if he's just being politically correct? And there are stats to prove that Bargnani, for some odd reason, plays horribly when JO is in the rotation. After his breakout, Bargnani with JO back in the lineup was like shooting sub .400%. After the trade, he goes back to shooting around .500%
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#23 » by Shaazzam » Fri May 22, 2009 6:05 am

dacrusha wrote:
ADROCK wrote:
NORTH2SOUTH wrote:According to Triano on the Bill Watters show he stated he knew Jermaine was a problem 3 games into the season when the team was 3-0. Jermaine had already complained to sam 3 or so times already how he didn't like the offence and how he was used. I found that surprising. I liked Jermaine but apparently he was an issue even early on. Too Bad.


love jo and if this is true.he essentially got sam fired....thanks buddy.the only crap thing about it was that the boys couldnt adjust to reap the benefits fast enough to get us to the playoffs...next season is going to be very different.


Funny enough, we only started playing better once JO was jettisoned to Miami.

His 'swagger' and 'defensive attitude' is way blown out of proportion: he came into camp out of shape and gave us little throughout the season... oh yeah, and he also gave up on the team in Oklahoma City.

Good riddance.


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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#24 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri May 22, 2009 6:20 am

Choker wrote:
raptor21_85 wrote:The most important thing Jermaine contributed with the team is on Bargs' development.


I hear this a lot, but how do people know this for sure? How come Mo Pete wasn't able to slash like Carter? How come Robin Lopez doesn't have post moves like Shaq? I'd say that throughout the course of the season, Bargnani's defense regressed. He played his best defense in the beginning of the season when coming off the bench, and this was during a period of time where JO was still new to the team. If JO really did help Bargnani's development by any significant amount, it should have improved, not regressed.


Work ethic is what he learned from JO imo. He spent 4 hours in the gym with him almost every day during the offseason. Pretty crazy. Considering Andrea has been looked at as lazy and unmotivated at times during his second season (even Sam has said some things about this) I think it isn't far fetched JO helped him realize the importance of putting in work off the court.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#25 » by Kabookalu » Fri May 22, 2009 6:27 am

Basketball_Jones wrote:Work ethic is what he learned from JO imo. He spent 4 hours in the gym with him almost every day during the offseason. Pretty crazy. Considering Andrea has been looked at as lazy and unmotivated at times during his second season (even Sam has said some things about this) I think it isn't far fetched JO helped him realize the importance of putting in work off the court.


BC drafted Bargnani for several things. One, he thought he could be an immediate contributor. Two, he had the highest potential out of anyone in the draft. Three, high calipher tests. Four, his work ethic.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#26 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri May 22, 2009 6:38 am

Choker wrote:
Basketball_Jones wrote:Work ethic is what he learned from JO imo. He spent 4 hours in the gym with him almost every day during the offseason. Pretty crazy. Considering Andrea has been looked at as lazy and unmotivated at times during his second season (even Sam has said some things about this) I think it isn't far fetched JO helped him realize the importance of putting in work off the court.


BC drafted Bargnani for several things. One, he thought he could be an immediate contributor. Two, he had the highest potential out of anyone in the draft. Three, high calipher tests. Four, his work ethic.


Well it's a shame BC messed up on that lol. Andrea's work ethic and attitude in year 2 was pretty bad.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#27 » by Kabookalu » Fri May 22, 2009 6:46 am

Basketball_Jones wrote:Well it's a shame BC messed up on that lol. Andrea's work ethic and attitude in year 2 was pretty bad.


My point was that Bargnani didn't learn how to have a good work ethic from JO. Sounds fishy that a guy who was drafted for having an excellent work ethic, was treated poorly his second season and has been branded as a lazy and unmotivated player, is leaked out that he hit the gym 4 hours a day, and the credit is being given to Jermaine O'neal.

Roko Ukic is said to by a gym rat, where is the improvement? He has Jason Kapono to teach him how to shoot and Jose Calderon on how to run a team. If he doesn't improve, what of it then?
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#28 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri May 22, 2009 7:03 am

That's a fair assessment as well. it. I just was in shock when I read all the stuff about his offseason training. It just seemed like a complete 180 in his work ethic to me. Bargs probably would have broken out himself, obviously JO isn't the man who made him who he is. However, I have my doubts Bargs would have trained as hard without JO. I just don't have much confidence in Andrea's work ethic I guess. As for Roko, well it takes talent and work ethic. If you lack one, you won't get anywhere. I don't think Roko has the talent, but we will see.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#29 » by Crazy-Canuck » Fri May 22, 2009 7:18 am

Some of Bargs improvements came as a result of Jo and some from scheduling.
Just being around JO had to have helped Bargs pick up some of the little nuances of playing C in the NBA.
I believe that this was the first year that Bargs worked on his game under NBA supervision, rather than having a commitment to play or workout with the Italian National team.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#30 » by ponder276 » Fri May 22, 2009 8:29 am

I have always liked what JO brought as a rebounder and defender, but he's always been a VERY POOR offensive player, IMO. He is not able to get himself many high percentage looks at all, but he insists on regularly jacking up that terrible fade-away j from the high post, even though he almost never hits it. He is clearly someone who never "got it" on offense. Throughout his prime he shot about .450 from the field, with more turnovers than assists, and only about 5 fta/game, which is TERRIBLE offensive efficiency for a big, but he still insisted on taking tonnes of shots, while being a huge ball stopper/black hole. I have always seen JO as being much worse than ZBo offensively, although prime JO was obviously way better than ZBo overall since he was a defensive force, while ZBo has always been a defensive liability.

But yeah, JO has just never understood his limitations offensively, he really does not know a good shot from a bad shot, and he's always thought he was a better offensive player than he really was.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#31 » by ansoncarter » Fri May 22, 2009 9:17 am

^he just never had great touch in close imo.

thats why I never cared we traded charlie villanueva. He's impressive at creating a decent look but doesn't have the touch to ever make himself elite. And it's something you either have or you don't imo
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#32 » by teamLeiweke » Fri May 22, 2009 11:02 am

It does not sound like he was causing problems, if true, it sounds like he was questioning Sam's offensive sets, and I dont blame him!!!
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#33 » by chsh22 » Fri May 22, 2009 11:22 am

We should give up a round of applause for JO then. He allowed the franchise to step forward and move past the Mo-Shats offense.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#34 » by ATLTimekeeper » Fri May 22, 2009 11:53 am

Problem isn't the right word. Triano just said he knew it wouldn't work out. He then went into JO and Bosh taking turns killing the clock as another reason.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#35 » by timdunkit » Fri May 22, 2009 11:57 am

ponder276 wrote:I have always liked what JO brought as a rebounder and defender, but he's always been a VERY POOR offensive player, IMO. He is not able to get himself many high percentage looks at all, but he insists on regularly jacking up that terrible fade-away j from the high post, even though he almost never hits it. He is clearly someone who never "got it" on offense. Throughout his prime he shot about .450 from the field, with more turnovers than assists, and only about 5 fta/game, which is TERRIBLE offensive efficiency for a big, but he still insisted on taking tonnes of shots, while being a huge ball stopper/black hole. I have always seen JO as being much worse than ZBo offensively, although prime JO was obviously way better than ZBo overall since he was a defensive force, while ZBo has always been a defensive liability.

But yeah, JO has just never understood his limitations offensively, he really does not know a good shot from a bad shot, and he's always thought he was a better offensive player than he really was.


Sorry to say but with JO this team was a bad rebounding team ... we were better rebounding team with Bargnani then JO.

I always said that JO's presence was overrated ... His PR training guy must be really proud of him because JO really has the ability to connect with fans (Im not saying he had us fooled but rather he did his job well).
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#36 » by appel » Fri May 22, 2009 12:12 pm

Choker wrote:
raptor21_85 wrote:it hasn't regressed, actually if you notice, Bargs always guards the best PF/C of the foe, because his D is better than Bosh'. And Bargs leads the team on blocks per game. Nevertheless, he has to increase his Help D.


Nah I'd say that his defense in the beginning of the season was much better then later on. He was aggressive and he played overall great defense, man and help. Later on Bargnani stopped being as aggressive.



You can't be too aggressive if you're the only C
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#37 » by TheDrunkenOak » Fri May 22, 2009 12:31 pm

timdunkit wrote:
ponder276 wrote:I have always liked what JO brought as a rebounder and defender, but he's always been a VERY POOR offensive player, IMO. He is not able to get himself many high percentage looks at all, but he insists on regularly jacking up that terrible fade-away j from the high post, even though he almost never hits it. He is clearly someone who never "got it" on offense. Throughout his prime he shot about .450 from the field, with more turnovers than assists, and only about 5 fta/game, which is TERRIBLE offensive efficiency for a big, but he still insisted on taking tonnes of shots, while being a huge ball stopper/black hole. I have always seen JO as being much worse than ZBo offensively, although prime JO was obviously way better than ZBo overall since he was a defensive force, while ZBo has always been a defensive liability.

But yeah, JO has just never understood his limitations offensively, he really does not know a good shot from a bad shot, and he's always thought he was a better offensive player than he really was.


Sorry to say but with JO this team was a bad rebounding team ... we were better rebounding team with Bargnani then JO.

I always said that JO's presence was overrated ... His PR training guy must be really proud of him because JO really has the ability to connect with fans (Im not saying he had us fooled but rather he did his job well).



JO was able to connect with the fans by giving his all, each and every time he stepped on the court. Which, by the way, we haven't seen for such a long time. We cherish our blue collar warriors, who give their heart and soul when they play. We were tired of seeing softies day in and day out. So it was refreshing to see a warrior who has a swagger and puts in the effort, despite his limitations.

Geez...how quickly people forget...
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#38 » by Yuri Vaultin » Fri May 22, 2009 12:56 pm

TheDrunkenOak wrote:JO was able to connect with the fans by giving his all, each and every time he stepped on the court. Which, by the way, we haven't seen for such a long time. We cherish our blue collar warriors, who give their heart and soul when they play. We were tired of seeing softies day in and day out. So it was refreshing to see a warrior who has a swagger and puts in the effort, despite his limitations.

Geez...how quickly people forget...


Very rarely do "blue collar warriors" make in excess of $20Mil. It was nice seeing him take charges, block shots. It was horrific to see his turn around jumper that he loved so much.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#39 » by basketball royalty » Fri May 22, 2009 1:22 pm

Just wondering why this would come up at all? I mean, why would Jay bring something like that to the media? Either he has to work on his interview skills or he is going to be a $#!+ disturber for no good reason.
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Re: Jermaine was causing problems from the start 

Post#40 » by timdunkit » Fri May 22, 2009 1:24 pm

TheDrunkenOak wrote:
timdunkit wrote:
ponder276 wrote:I have always liked what JO brought as a rebounder and defender, but he's always been a VERY POOR offensive player, IMO. He is not able to get himself many high percentage looks at all, but he insists on regularly jacking up that terrible fade-away j from the high post, even though he almost never hits it. He is clearly someone who never "got it" on offense. Throughout his prime he shot about .450 from the field, with more turnovers than assists, and only about 5 fta/game, which is TERRIBLE offensive efficiency for a big, but he still insisted on taking tonnes of shots, while being a huge ball stopper/black hole. I have always seen JO as being much worse than ZBo offensively, although prime JO was obviously way better than ZBo overall since he was a defensive force, while ZBo has always been a defensive liability.

But yeah, JO has just never understood his limitations offensively, he really does not know a good shot from a bad shot, and he's always thought he was a better offensive player than he really was.


Sorry to say but with JO this team was a bad rebounding team ... we were better rebounding team with Bargnani then JO.

I always said that JO's presence was overrated ... His PR training guy must be really proud of him because JO really has the ability to connect with fans (Im not saying he had us fooled but rather he did his job well).



JO was able to connect with the fans by giving his all, each and every time he stepped on the court. Which, by the way, we haven't seen for such a long time. We cherish our blue collar warriors, who give their heart and soul when they play. We were tired of seeing softies day in and day out. So it was refreshing to see a warrior who has a swagger and puts in the effort, despite his limitations.

Geez...how quickly people forget...


It wasn't necessarily his play on teh court I think cause us to connect. JO gave us all hope at the beginning of the season (anyone care to remember his words?). When he talk to the media he always had good things to say about Toronto, about the fans and just good positive things in general. He seemed media savvy and really genuine person which the fans really fell for and love. His play on the court could be best describe as mediocore ...

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