Matt Carroll

[SamBone]

word from my source here in Philly (guy from the sixers that works out with Carroll everyday) is that Cuban wants Toronto to sweaten the deal. So I doubt that will happen, and Carroll will be moving to Dallas at the end of the week.

[Grizzled]

I wouldn’t be against maybe throwing in a second round pick, but I wouldn’t give up too much more. We have other options as well. If we hang onto Banks we could trade him and cash at the trade deadline next year to some cash starved team under the cap. If we set that deal up before the season it could allow us to re-sign more of our FAs this summer knowing that we’d be dropping Banks’ contract from our salary at the deadline.

[lucasc]

I wouldn’t be against maybe throwing in a second round pick, but I wouldn’t give up too much more. We have other options as well. If we hang onto Banks we could trade him and cash at the trade deadline next year to some cash starved team under the cap. If we set that deal up before the season it could allow us to re-sign more of our FAs this summer knowing that we’d be dropping Banks’ contract from our salary at the deadline.

Throw in a 2nd round pick? WOW, just WOW.

This is from the same guy that was pronouncing Calderon as the 4th best point guard in the league behind Paul, Williams, & Nash just 2 seasons ago.

[Deoh]

word from my source here in Philly (guy from the sixers that works out with Carroll everyday) is that Cuban wants Toronto to sweaten the deal. So I doubt that will happen, and Carroll will be moving to Dallas at the end of the week.

<----What BC is doing if that's true.

[Upgrayedd]

word from my source here in Philly (guy from the sixers that works out with Carroll everyday) is that Cuban wants Toronto to sweaten the deal. So I doubt that will happen, and Carroll will be moving to Dallas at the end of the week.

Well if that's true than No Deal Howie.

[Muss]

[quote=grizzled] Well, you may well feel that your knowledge of our team and our future plans is better than JT’s, but the fact remains that JT is our head coach, and BC should be playing attention to what he wants and not what you think we need. Do you agree?

No, BC should understand (and I have faith he will with all the other good moves he's made thus far) that we have no need for a 5th string SG, particularly when we have belinelli who does the same job but has upside, and douby who we have as a desperation SG. He should understand that Jack, Wright, DD and Marco will all be above Carrol in depth chart and that if we were going to have a 6th SG he'd be on a min contract, NOT CARROL's!!!! Who said JT even wants Carrol? This trade was just a rumour and there has been no further news on it as far as I know. Just because JT might want another shooter doesn't mean its Carrol.

By the way, telling me my argument is wrong just because I'm not JT and I'm not involved with the Raps other than being a fan is a pretty tiresome and bad arguemnt on your part. Seriously, I'm entitled to an opinion on how the franchise is going as much as the next guy. If I want I CAN criticize any move/potential move we make. Thats like me telling you that you can't criticize any NBA player because you've never made it in the NBA, or you couldn't stick in the NBA. That's just wrong, of course you'd be able to criticize and say that player X sucks because he isn't very good comparative to player Y. Likewise I can critisise any potential move we may or may not make, BC/JT or anyone else's decisions. Jeez.

It’s not better value because in this scenario we trade away a far worse contract. If you get a bad contract, but you trade away a worse contract for it, then you come out ahead. If you trade away a -6, and you get back a -4, then you are better off than you were to begin with. Capishe?

I'm sorry what? Carrol's contract is worse than Bank's contract. Why are you making up fairy numbers? Are you hinting that I'm stupid because I don't agree with you, and that I need to be given a -6 and a -4 and told -4 is better!?!? What the hell was that?
Banks is a 2 year deal. Eat him this year, next year he's expiring. Trade him to a sucky team as an expiring for a 2nd round or something. Hell let him expire. This is much better than getting Carrol the 30year old declining jump shooter for 4 years!!! Capishe?
(In all seriousness though, I really can't understand how anyone could think Carrol has a better contract than Banks).

Again, the first two years of Carroll’s contract are cancelled out by Banks’ contract. In fact we come out well ahead on that part of the deal because Carroll makes less money and is actually useful to us. What you have left is 2 years which are likely to be only modestly overpaid, and if BC could move Kapono when he had two years left and close to $13 million left on his contract, he can almost certainly move Carroll with two years and less than $7.5 million left on his contract.

To sum up, for the first two years we’d come out well ahead, because Carroll makes less than Banks and he would be that extra shooter that JT wants. For the next two years he’s probably only marginally overpaid, and BC has just recently moved a similar player with a much worse contract for a piece that we very much needed. In light of this summer’s events perhaps we should have a little more faith in BC’s ability to make a trade?

To sum it up, when Banks is expiring he will be far easier to trade than Carrol. I'm not expecting miricles, but we'd get more for an expiring Banks than a 3 year Carrol any day of the week. This, this is good value and good reason to keep Banks. Just because BC has pulled off some miricle (george-Marco) moves is a terrible reason to suggest he'l easily pull it off again and that we should get an even worse contract just because no one likes Banks.
I don't understand why you think trading for Carrol will help. It won't, long term it really will hurt us. We get a small amount of wiggle room. Yes getting under the luxury tax is important but don't shoot yourself in the foot while you do it for christs sake! Then a useless player for 2 years when we could have a roster spot and no money going to a useless player. If JT wants Carrol we have to tell him NO! Because Carrol has a dreadful contract.
Why not go after Sasha Vujacic. Heck even adam frikin Morrison. Lakers don't need both. We don't need either. But at least if we pulled that off we wouldn't be shootin our future up at the same time because Sasha has just 2 years and Morrison 1!

[Muss]

And for the people evaluating Carroll’s stats, what he did in limited minutes in 20 games with Dallas isn’t really relevant. His numbers with Charlotte would be more relevant.

I think it is very relevant. The fact that he didn't play in Dallas, despite being healthy, tells you all you need to know. Coupled with the fact that when he did play, he was dreadful. Yes its only 5mpg, but those stats are fugly no matter how you look at them!

Especially considering those are the sort of mins we'd expect him to play if he signed with us.

[Blasphemy]

CARROLL SUCKS!!!

[Grizzled]

[quote=grizzled] Well, you may well feel that your knowledge of our team and our future plans is better than JT’s, but the fact remains that JT is our head coach, and BC should be playing attention to what he wants and not what you think we need. Do you agree?

No, BC should understand ...

I’m repeating things that have been stated at least twice before, but what the heck, one more for the road. JT would like another shooter. Carroll is a much better shooter than Jack, Wright, or DD.

Also, trading Banks for Carroll would be cheaper that adding some random min. salary FA. You can’t look at Carroll’s incoming salary without comparing it to Banks’ out going salary. This seems to be a difficult point for you to understand. In isolation it looks bad to have a player on the end of your bench who’s making close to $5 million but is only playing spot minutes, but it you traded away a player who makes more and would play less to get him then you come out ahead. I don’t know how to make it any simpler than that.

This has also been repeated a couple of times, but there are two separate issues here. If you want to argue about JT’s belief that he could use another shooter then that’s a separate question. But since he has said he would like to have another one then he’s the one BC should be listening to, not you. Why would BC want acquire another shooter? Because the way his head coach sees the season unfolding he believes he could use another one. Do you really think BC should listen to you over his HC?

I guess the fact that you refer to Carroll as being 30 shows how little you know about him, and how much I’m probably wasting my time by repeating the same answers to you over and over, but I’ll just finish this post and then be done with it. Over the next two years Banks makes more money and would give us less than Carroll. Clearly Carroll has the better contract for us over that time. And because of Carroll’s declining salary he only makes $7.5 million in total over the last 2 years of his contract. He may even be worth that then, but if he isn’t I have no doubt that BC could trade him for something we could use, as he did with Kapono this year, and remember that Kapono was making almost twice as much.

[rrdjutriurt]

word from my source here in Philly (guy from the sixers that works out with Carroll everyday) is that Cuban wants Toronto to sweaten the deal. So I doubt that will happen, and Carroll will be moving to Dallas at the end of the week.

Thanks, you made my day. There is no way this trade gets done now and that's the way i prefer it. Now that Ukic is gone, Banks will be just fine as our 3rd point guard and will play well when Calderon goes down.

[Morris_Shatford]

remember Carroll's success in Charlotte is why Kapono was cut from the Bobcats

PWNED

[SamBone]

From what I a hearing is that Toronto wants Carroll, Dallas wants to give up Carroll, but does not want Banks dead contract considering they already have 4 PG's (Kidd, JJ, Beabouis, Terry). If Tor adds incentives Cuban will do it, but most likely they will need a 3rd team to get involved so Dallas can get a BIg instead of Banks. Rumored teams to take Banks are Charlotte(Nazr Muhammed to Dallas) and NY Knicks (Jefferies to Dallas)

[TheMagician]

From what I a hearing is that Toronto wants Carroll, Dallas wants to give up Carroll, but does not want Banks dead contract considering they already have 4 PG's (Kidd, JJ, Beabouis, Terry). If Tor adds incentives Cuban will do it, but most likely they will need a 3rd team to get involved so Dallas can get a BIg instead of Banks. Rumored teams to take Banks are Charlotte(Nazr Muhammed to Dallas) and NY Knicks (Jefferies to Dallas)

Why doesn't Toronto just trade for a Big and not deal with Dallas? Do we really need Carroll more than a big?

[Grizzled]

From what I a hearing is that Toronto wants Carroll, Dallas wants to give up Carroll, but does not want Banks dead contract considering they already have 4 PG's (Kidd, JJ, Beabouis, Terry). If Tor adds incentives Cuban will do it, but most likely they will need a 3rd team to get involved so Dallas can get a BIg instead of Banks. Rumored teams to take Banks are Charlotte(Nazr Muhammed to Dallas) and NY Knicks (Jefferies to Dallas)

Why doesn't Toronto just trade for a Big and not deal with Dallas? Do we really need Carroll more than a big?

I don't think we need another big anymore, and JT has said he would like another shooter, so it seems that Carroll fits the bill.

[totallyr]

From what I a hearing is that Toronto wants Carroll, Dallas wants to give up Carroll, but does not want Banks dead contract considering they already have 4 PG's (Kidd, JJ, Beabouis, Terry). If Tor adds incentives Cuban will do it, but most likely they will need a 3rd team to get involved so Dallas can get a BIg instead of Banks. Rumored teams to take Banks are Charlotte(Nazr Muhammed to Dallas) and NY Knicks (Jefferies to Dallas)

Why doesn't Toronto just trade for a Big and not deal with Dallas? Do we really need Carroll more than a big?

Makes alot more sense

[Muss]

[quote=grizzled] Well, you may well feel that your knowledge of our team and our future plans is better than JT’s, but the fact remains that JT is our head coach, and BC should be playing attention to what he wants and not what you think we need. Do you agree?

No, BC should understand ...

I’m repeating things that have been stated at least twice before, but what the heck, one more for the road. JT would like another shooter. Carroll is a much better shooter than Jack, Wright, or DD.

Also, trading Banks for Carroll would be cheaper that adding some random min. salary FA. You can’t look at Carroll’s incoming salary without comparing it to Banks’ out going salary. This seems to be a difficult point for you to understand. In isolation it looks bad to have a player on the end of your bench who’s making close to $5 million but is only playing spot minutes, but it you traded away a player who makes more and would play less to get him then you come out ahead. I don’t know how to make it any simpler than that.

This has also been repeated a couple of times, but there are two separate issues here. If you want to argue about JT’s belief that he could use another shooter then that’s a separate question. But since he has said he would like to have another one then he’s the one BC should be listening to, not you. Why would BC want acquire another shooter? Because the way his head coach sees the season unfolding he believes he could use another one. Do you really think BC should listen to you over his HC?

I guess the fact that you refer to Carroll as being 30 shows how little you know about him, and how much I’m probably wasting my time by repeating the same answers to you over and over, but I’ll just finish this post and then be done with it. Over the next two years Banks makes more money and would give us less than Carroll. Clearly Carroll has the better contract for us over that time. And because of Carroll’s declining salary he only makes $7.5 million in total over the last 2 years of his contract. He may even be worth that then, but if he isn’t I have no doubt that BC could trade him for something we could use, as he did with Kapono this year, and remember that Kapono was making almost twice as much.

You see the thing is Carrol will be 29 when the season starts. His contract is horrific. It boggles the mind why BC would get JT this shooter when he could buyout banks and get a vet min and in total money saved, yes this is CHEAPER than Carrol.

I said 30 something Carrol because thats what we will get 2 years down the line, by which point banks will be gone. By which point you will see just how horrible this trade is because by this point Carrol will be our Banks.

Carrol's contract is far far far worse than Bank's. We save NO money. Go to http://www.shamsports.com look at the salaries and work it out for yourself. In total if we bought out Banks and signed a vet min, the total cost is less than Carrol's total contract! So why get Carrol, when this would SAVE MONEY (add to that mr vet min shooter would expire in 1 year). Did you read anything I posted? Yes per year Carrol's salary is lower than Bank's until WAIT, Banks finishes in year 2 and Carrol still has another 2 years!!!!! HELLO!!!!
SIMPLES!!!!

You also failed to respond to my other post, the fact that Carrol's play in Dallas is relevant. Those are the mins we'd expect him to get here. He played terrible for Dallas so why would he be better for us? Don't look at carear stats, Carrol is on the decline. The only reason I beleive BC was able to trade Kapono for Evans is because Philly were so incredible desperate for outside shooting. Don't expect a team to be in such a situation down the line. Therefore don't expect Carrol to be moved in anything but a filler for a trade. Which brings me neetly back to my original point all those pages ago, why not use Banks for that.

An expiring Banks could be shifted for something reasnable. Denver got a 2nd rounder for Hunter for God's sake. A 4year/3year Carrol can't be. You assume that We'd eat Bank's entire contract (only if we let him expire/waive) but I firmly believe that we'd be able to trade him as an expiring. Yes this season and next Banks makes more than Carrol, while contributing nothing. But what about the years beyond that? We have a Carrol (now a 30 something) sitting doing nothing but wasting a roster spot till he expires, or your fairy tale trade comes along. In which time his total contract is greater than Banks+vet min.

OK JT wants another shooter, fine i don't agree with him, but surely you can see there are much better options than Carrol. And thats half my point. We don't need to get Carrol. I'd be happier with Adam Morrison than Carrol's contract for crying out loud we can get more for value for Banks than Carrol. Yes Carrol is a better shooter than DD/Wright/Jack, but wait. Did you see him play in Dallas? Are you aware that we swap Banks for Sasha Vujacic/Adam Morrison (if the lakers would do such a thing, don't think they will) and Sasha would expire in 2 years rather than 4? Or Adam expires this year, rather than next.

If your argueing this is a good trade because of one man, JT's, opinion then I don't think much of your argueing skills quite frankly. Hedo can shoot. Jose can shoot. Marco can shoot. DD can shoot pretty well. Jack/wright are OK at shooting. Bargs can shoot. And Rasho is just money. Douby (our already fringe shooter in a pg body) can shoot. Why would we all have to blindly follow the coach's thoughts? Can't you see, its not a good idea?

But this, this is what really scares me.

Clearly Carrol has the better contract over time

Have you lost your mind??!!!?!?!?!?!! Over time we'd have 2 more years of Carrol than Banks. In which time I guarentee you a shooter we can get for cheaps is available!? As I've said before and will say one last time. Even if we bought out Banks, and signed another shooter to the Vet min in TOTAL COSTS WE WILL SAVE MONEY OVER GETTING CARROL!!! do the maths, add up the contracts yourself. You'l find out the most financially sound thing to do would be to wait till banks is expiring and trade him for a 2nd rounder, or let him expire, not Matt Carrol.

You'l be amazed.

[totallyr]

From what I a hearing is that Toronto wants Carroll, Dallas wants to give up Carroll, but does not want Banks dead contract considering they already have 4 PG's (Kidd, JJ, Beabouis, Terry). If Tor adds incentives Cuban will do it, but most likely they will need a 3rd team to get involved so Dallas can get a BIg instead of Banks. Rumored teams to take Banks are Charlotte(Nazr Muhammed to Dallas) and NY Knicks (Jefferies to Dallas)

Why doesn't Toronto just trade for a Big and not deal with Dallas? Do we really need Carroll more than a big?

I don't think we need another big anymore, and JT has said he would like another shooter, so it seems that Carroll fits the bill.

A 30 year old scrub with a 4 year contract, does not fit the bill, keep looking or keep Banks

[Grizzled]

Why doesn't Toronto just trade for a Big and not deal with Dallas? Do we really need Carroll more than a big?

I don't think we need another big anymore, and JT has said he would like another shooter, so it seems that Carroll fits the bill.

A 30 year old scrub with a 4 year contract, does not fit the bill, keep looking or keep Banks

He's not 30. He's a career .400 3pt shooter, and trading Banks for him would actually save us money.

[totallyr]

He'll be 30 in April, still you don't tie into an end of bench guy for 4 years, look we don't like Banks an end of bench guy for 2 years, keep looking.

[Muss]

A 30 year old scrub with a 4 year contract, does not fit the bill, keep looking or keep Banks
He's not 30. He's a career .400 3pt shooter, and trading Banks for him would actually save us money.

For christs sake it doesn't. Banks year 1 + Banks year 2, = $4,553,793 + $4,847,586

Carrol Year 1+year 2+ year3+ year 4 = $4,700,000 + $4,300,000 +$3,900,000 + $3,500,000

Banks= $9401379
Carrol= $16400000

I'll let you go crazy and add a vet min to banks. LOOK STILL LESS TOTAL COST THAN CARROL.

Only benefit of Carrol's trade is gettin lower cap for first 2 years, but shootin ourselves in the foot for the next 2 with a then 30something year old SCRUB!

Simple enough now?

Edit: Buying out Banks wouldn't be my plan, eating him for one more year and then trading him as an expiring/more attractive filler in a trade, would be my plan.
Edit: Also getting Carrol could help keep us under Luxury tax. But there is a point when having a terrible contract like this for a bench player just doesn't make it worth it.
Edit: You also failed to give me a single reason why Carrol's contract is better over time as you mentioned earlier.