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FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors

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FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#1 » by DG88 » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:14 pm

FanHouse does their debate in the paint where they look at all teams in the NBA and two of their authors (fans) write about whether that said team is moving towrads being contenders or not. Here are the two arguments:

Fear the Raptors
Toronto had myriad problems in 2008-09, not the least of which was rebounding and interior defense. For those reasons, the acquisitions of Reggie Evans and Amir Johnson matter as much as the Hedo Turkoglu signing. Hedo will positively augment a Raptors attack that suffered from predictability and inconsistency (a rare but devastating combo), but Evans -- one of the best rebounding monsters of this era of basketball -- and A.J. should do heaps of good near the rim.

Bosh is actually a stellar rebounder at the power forward spot. But Bargnani ... he's awful. Bargnani's three seasons each show up in among the eight worst offensive rebounding seasons for 7-foot players in basketball history. Sure, Dirk Nowitzki shows up there frequently too ... but Dirk can hit the defensive glass. But Bargnani repeatedly shows up among the worst 7-foot defensive rebounders, too. Last season, the only 7-footers with worst defensive rebounding rates than Bargs were Pacer teammates Rasho Nesterovic and Roy Hibbert, who happened to play with rebound-soaking Jeff Foster and Troy Murphy.

That's why Evans and Johnson are so important. Reggie eternally finishes among the top 20 defensive rebounders in the league, and even higher in offensive rebounding. Amir isn't quite so good on the defensive boards, but he excels on the offensive glass. Between Evans and Johnson, the Raps suddenly have a wealth of frontline options to help in rebounding. They both happen to be solid defenders as well, and you can see either fitting alongside either Bosh or Bargnani inasmuch that neither requires touches on offense.


You can read the rest here:
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/08/25/deba ... e-raptors/

The Raptors Can't Escape Mediocrity
The Toronto Raptors never have won more than 47 games in a season, and they probably never will, which makes this whole debate kind of sad. It's a wonderful city with a lively international flair, but it has a franchise that is destined for a life of basketball mediocrity.

They should have stuck to hockey.

Yes, the basketball fans are a little excited now because the Raptors wheeled and dealed all summer, thinking they were growing stronger when mostly they were just spinning their wheels, making noise and going nowhere.

The Raptors won 33 games last season and they'll probably win another five now, letting them contend for the eighth and final playoff spot before the inevitable happens next summer.

Chris Bosh is going to break their heart again, just like Tracy McGrady did in 2000 and then Vince Carter did in 2004.

American-born players love to visit Toronto. They just don't like to stay too long, which is a fight the franchise has waged since its inception in 1995. When Bosh becomes an unrestricted free agent next summer, the lure of Miami, New York or even Cleveland will take him away.

The Raptors signed unrestricted free agent forward Hedo Turkoglu of Orlando to a five-year, $53 million deal. They signed restricted free agent Jarrett Jack of Indiana to a $20 million contract. Both were nice additions, but guess what? Their current teams didn't try to hard to keep them. That should tell you something.


You can read the rest here:
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/08/25/deba ... ediocrity/

So Raps fans which one of these two authors is right in your opinion.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#2 » by Turnpikebandit » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:24 pm

Seems like nothing but an exercise in killing offseason time... both articles are hot garbage.

So they're either in the "upper strata" of the conference or will never win more than 47 games again?
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#3 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:24 pm

Well, I'll say Miss Cleo predicting the Raps "probably never will" win more than 47 games, ever, is an idiot. No idea about the other guy.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#4 » by Consequence » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:24 pm

Am I ever glad that Ziller was in support and Povtak against. Povtak sucks (building a great team in Toronto is "impossible"? Come on man.), but Ziller is a very good writer. He also does some pretty cool statistical work.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#5 » by dagger » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:38 pm

It's a point/counterpoint debate. You have to be strong in defence of the POV you are told to take. Both guys are entitled to, even encourage to, exaggerate for effect.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#6 » by Gold Chain » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:40 pm

If a .500 team gets the blood pumping, then the Raptors might get you excited. It's a great city, but building a great team there is an impossible task.


What a sweeping statement.

Attention all RealGM Raptor posters. I think it is time we fold up shop and just disperse and support other teams because we will never be able to build a great team. Ever.

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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#7 » by MinnyMo » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:56 pm

From Potvak:
The Raptors signed unrestricted free agent forward Hedo Turkoglu of Orlando to a five-year, $53 million deal. They signed restricted free agent Jarrett Jack of Indiana to a $20 million contract. Both were nice additions, but guess what? Their current teams didn't try to hard to keep them. That should tell you something


That's the thing that irks me, if this guy had any clue of the other teams cap situations, he would know that both teams would love to have said players back on the roster.

Pacers couldn't match Jack's offer because it would mean going over the luxury tax for a team who for at least this season, will not make the playoffs.

The magic couldn't re-sign Hedo because a) he was asking for more than they were willing to pay, b) the team is already over the luxury tax and they didn't want to go over more than they have to, and finally c) the trade for Vince would make Turkoglu somewhat redundant.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#8 » by djsunyc » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:04 pm

speaking of debates...my friend was on the debate team in high school. they had a huge event in massachussettes. they called it the mass-debate...
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#9 » by DG88 » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:04 pm

MinnyMo wrote:
From Potvak:
The Raptors signed unrestricted free agent forward Hedo Turkoglu of Orlando to a five-year, $53 million deal. They signed restricted free agent Jarrett Jack of Indiana to a $20 million contract. Both were nice additions, but guess what? Their current teams didn't try to hard to keep them. That should tell you something


That's the thing that irks me, if this guy had any clue of the other teams cap situations, he would know that both teams would love to have said players back on the roster.

Pacers couldn't match Jack's offer because it would mean going over the luxury tax for a team who for at least this season, will not make the playoffs.

The magic couldn't re-sign Hedo because a) he was asking for more than they were willing to pay, b) the team is already over the luxury tax and they didn't want to go over more than they have to, and finally c) the trade for Vince would make Turkoglu somewhat redundant.

I felt the same way with what he wrote. It looks like he never really looked at the circumstances of the teams that we got our players from.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#10 » by LLJ » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:39 pm

It would be unfortunate if we never win more than 47 games. And before you laugh, I don't think the Clippers have ever done it and they've been around longer.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#11 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:07 pm

LLJ wrote:It would be unfortunate if we never win more than 47 games. And before you laugh, I don't think the Clippers have ever done it and they've been around longer.


And would you be willing to predict they will never win more than 47 games, ever? And the Buffalo Braves did win 49 games once in the 70's.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#12 » by Grizzled » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:30 pm

I’m more in line with the former, but there’s lots of bad analysis in his middle paragraph.

Bosh is actually a stellar rebounder at the power forward spot. But Bargnani ... he's awful. Bargnani's three seasons each show up in among the eight worst offensive rebounding seasons for 7-foot players in basketball history. Sure, Dirk Nowitzki shows up there frequently too ... but Dirk can hit the defensive glass. But Bargnani repeatedly shows up among the worst 7-foot defensive rebounders, too. Last season, the only 7-footers with worst defensive rebounding rates than Bargs were Pacer teammates Rasho Nesterovic and Roy Hibbert, who happened to play with rebound-soaking Jeff Foster and Troy Murphy.

75% of Bargs shots are jump shots. How many other 7 footers can say that? Maybe only Dirk, which explains why his offensive rebounding numbers are so low, and why it’s best to pair him with a very good offensive rebounding SF (Amir Johnson says hi.). Bargnani’s defensive rebounding numbers aren’t that bad, and if the author considers that playing with Foster and Murphy is an excuse for Rasho and Hibbert then why didn’t he mention that Bargs was playing with Bosh, JO, and Marion? And that for a third of the season he was playing with Bosh and Marion at the same time!
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#13 » by bakafool » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm

"They should have stuck to hockey"

Whaaaaaaaaat?? Yeah like that's winning this city championships. That line was totally uncalled for.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#14 » by MrBojangelz71 » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:52 pm

The second article does little in the way of supporting itself. The collumnist uses our history, players unwillingness to play for us, the fact that we signed FA's away from the current teams, all teams will improve ....ect.... as his marching beat. What does Bosh leaving next season have to do with our performance this season? What player were we courting this offseason that refused to come her based on geographical differences?
Typical American journalist trying to pond off his ignorance as fact. Poor argument with little to no supporting facts to back it up.

In truth, we have no idea how this could turn out. Did we expand our depth? Yes. Did we improve our rebounding and toughness? Kinda and yes. Did we become more athletic? Kinda. Did we accumulate more talent? Yes. Will it all fall into place before the midway mark of the season? I sure hope so. If it does we will challenge for 4rth in the East. If not, we are fighting for a 7/8th spot.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#15 » by SciencePiggy » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:58 pm

Article 1 wrote:Bosh is actually a stellar rebounder at the power forward spot. But Bargnani ... he's awful. Bargnani's three seasons each show up in among the eight worst offensive rebounding seasons for 7-foot players in basketball history. Sure, Dirk Nowitzki shows up there frequently too ... but Dirk can hit the defensive glass. But Bargnani repeatedly shows up among the worst 7-foot defensive rebounders, too. Last season, the only 7-footers with worst defensive rebounding rates than Bargs were Pacer teammates Rasho Nesterovic and Roy Hibbert, who happened to play with rebound-soaking Jeff Foster and Troy Murphy.

He seems to imply that Rasho/Roy get a pass because they play next to great rebounders but Bargs gets thrown under the bus because he plays alongside a mere "stellar rebounder"? The teams with the best defensive rebounding PFs last year were IND, NYK (does Lee count?), DAL, TOR, and WAS. Now take a guess which teams had the worst defensive rebounding Cs last year :wink:

Edit: Beat'd by Grizzled, dang work getting in the way of my real research.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#16 » by MattBoner » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:41 pm

Their current teams didn't try to hard to keep them. That should tell you something.

someone should've told this guy they wanted to keep them but they couldn't afford them
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#17 » by garbage time » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:45 pm

MattBoner wrote:
Their current teams didn't try to hard to keep them. That should tell you something.

someone should've told this guy they wanted to keep them but they couldn't afford them


this is why threads reach 500 pages because guys like this don't even bother reading the first page, and they repeat what has already been said.
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#18 » by MattBoner » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:49 pm

well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#19 » by ansoncarter » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:58 pm

why did so many of you guys say Bargs defensive rebounding was decent? I ended up believing it

so many untrustworthy posters on here
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Re: FanHouse: Debate in the Paint Raptors 

Post#20 » by Basketball_Jones » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:01 pm

dagger wrote:It's a point/counterpoint debate. You have to be strong in defence of the POV you are told to take. Both guys are entitled to, even encourage to, exaggerate for effect.


Exactly. I really don't think anyone should be getting worked up over it. It was way over the top imo.
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