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Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano?

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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#21 » by RapsVC15 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:31 pm

I feel like I get a better advantage sitting on my couch and posting on an internet message board, rather than being with the team 24/7 and in practices.

..yeah so I'd say I'm right.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#22 » by nikeone » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:33 pm

kalel123 wrote:Preseason is what it is. Remember the most successful season in recent memory, we weren't that good to start the season either cause of all the new faces and harder schedule earlier on. I think when the games start to really count will be when to make a judgement but even then it'll take some time cause of all new faces still and... have you guys looked at our early schedule? That's one heck of a tough schedule for a new team.


Didn't we kill teams in the preseason the year we won the divisoion. I think we only lost one game during that preseason and the team chemistry on and off the court appeared to be amazing. You could tell during that teams preseason that they were going to be a decent team. We started the regular season slow but eventually found the confidence we had during that preseason.... I remember the coaching staff saying before that preseason started that we are going to play every game to win. Preseason or not they played to win and build chemistry. In the end I think that worked out. Does it make sense to not install your offense for the surprise factor when NBA teams usually figure out a teams system after the first regular game? So we are not installing our offense with nine new guys for the surprise factor in one game out of 82? If anything the only surprise is going to be how confused our nine new players get when they have to run several new plays they never seen before.

This team is completely different as is the stratedgy in the preseason. Will it turn out to be good that we didn't put in an offense throughout the preseason, didn't care if we won or lost, rested some of the key guys for no reason and didn't give our guys the minutes and conditioning needed to be ready on day one?

Only time will tell but personally I like going after it in the preseason and preparing these guys for what is to come. Especially when you have nine new faces on your team, they need every second of this preseason to get used to each other.... In my opinion we treated this preseason as if this team has been together for 10 years and won several titles, we coasted, we gave guys time off, we didn't install an offense. As a result it looks like these guys lack conditioning and look confused as to what is going on at both ends of the court.

I think overall Triano has not prepared this team for Oct 28th or for the first month which is not the easiest schedule in the world. I hope I am wrong and we come out throwin knockout punches but with 10 days before our first game and our starters being unable to play half of a game without gasping for air is not a good sign. Neither is the negative visuals of heads hanging and quitting when the times get tough and the score gets out of hand.

You look at the Celtics a team that already won a title and could coast in the preseason if they wanted to. They have played with regular season intensity from game 1 in the preseason and the results are evident to me. They are in tip top shape and they have fully grasped the system at both ends of the floor. They basically look like they are in mid season form while we look completely lost and completely out of shape.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#23 » by saham » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:05 pm

nikeone wrote:Only time will tell but personally I like going after it in the preseason and preparing these guys for what is to come. Especially when you have nine new faces on your team, they need every second of this preseason to get used to each other.... In my opinion we treated this preseason as if this team has been together for 10 years and won several titles, we coasted, we gave guys time off, we didn't install an offense. As a result it looks like these guys lack conditioning and look confused as to what is going on at both ends of the court.


The only guy who got time off is Hedo and he wasn't bad at all in yesterdays game. He is a veteran and knows how to play the game. We didn't want him to get injured due to fatigue early in the year. He had a long season last year and then played for his national team till 2-3 weeks before the camp started. Bosh didn't take part in the contact practices and a couple of preseason games due to his injury. It wasn't like we planned to sit him those games. Look at Marion, he tried playing through a calf injury and guess what happened ? He is out for the whole preseason. Now do you catch my drift ?

Wright and Evans are out with injury as well. Do you think its wise to bring them back without proper healing and conditioning ?

nikeone wrote:You look at the Celtics a team that already won a title and could coast in the preseason if they wanted to. They have played with regular season intensity from game 1 in the preseason and the results are evident to me. They are in tip top shape and they have fully grasped the system at both ends of the floor. They basically look like they are in mid season form while we look completely lost and completely out of shape.


90% of the celtics core is playing together for two years. And it's not like they played their butts off in the preseason. Their big 3 didn't play in back to back games. They already have a lot of chemistry and know each other very well, so obviously you see it on the court. It takes time to build chemistry, knowing eachother strengths and weaknesses.

Raptors fan need to be patient in the preseason as well as 25 games into the season. There will be some tough times early in the year as the team would look confused and make mistakes while getting used to eachother.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#24 » by canguy20m » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:06 pm

it's not really about the losses in preseason it's how the games played out. the raptors have been blown out of most of their preseason games. playing at home doesn't seem to make a difference.
i know it's the preseason but any other team playing their starters lots of minutes and losing like the raptors have, would have been called out by coaches, players, fans.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#25 » by Double Helix » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:21 pm

Three things jump out at me as reasons to accept what Triano's suggesting:

1) We will not be playing many of the bottom-end bench players big minutes in the regular season and certainly not all at once like some sort of full rotation "2nd line." Bosh, Bargnani and Turk will all play closer to 36 minutes and haven't been there yet and the bench players who will play will share time with starters, hopefully resulting in improved play.

2) The 9 new players aspect (2 on the starting lineup) really does make sense to me. There's nothing worse than somebody in charge (in business or sports) throwing a ton of new expectations or procedures on its staff all at once and expecting everybody to get it all at once. I'm of the opinion that you work on your biggest weakness first (in this case defence) and hammer away at it bit by bit until your employees start getting it and build on it from there. Dramatic improvement in any area of protocol requires communication time, assessment, feedback and discipline. I'm seeing those things from Jay in his scrums with reporters. He's calling out certain players who aren't getting it. He's pointing to the star player's lack of conditioning. He's getting them ready his own way.

3) Preseason never matters. There are teams who go undefeated and suck during the regular season and others who are medicore who go to the NBA finals. The games are interesting but not entirely representative of regular season play because all of the coaches are trying out different things and testing new players. You might get a big win against a perceived big team who was content with the loss to get a returning, injured player or draft pick big minutes. Just as I would be telling people not to be too high and mighty if we were dominating the preseason, I'm equally convinced that what we're seeing out there isn't going to be entirely representative of what we're going to see over the next 83 games (including the last preseason game).

What really sucks though is that our opening month is a tough schedule and morale is important in sports. Even if we were firing on all cylinders we'd have a tough time being .500 after November so what's going to happen when we're not? Do signs of promise not count for anything as we then head into an easier part of the season? Did we really expect to be one of the top 8 teams in the entire league this year? I ask because we've got a lot of those guys on our schedule to start the season and I don't want everybody dooming and glooming if and when we lose to those teams.

What's disappointing to think about is a scenario where we keep improving and improving to the point where we're essentially playing like a top 10 team in the entire league but it's not reflected in our record after November because we're playing teams even better than that and the combination of negative fan energy, bad press questioning, power rankings, etc brings down the morale of the team before it has a chance to string a bunch of wins together against weaker competition. I'm being optimistic but I believe if we can get out of November relatively close to .500 we have a really good chance of having 45 (or so) wins on the season. In other words, I can easily imagine a scenario where we begin the season below .500 and finish above it but have to have some patience and hope the morale doesn't dip too low during the low points.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#26 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:29 pm

Preseason may not matter in the sense that it doesn't count towards the regular season record, but it definitely does matter or they wouldn't play the games. And believe it or not, there have actually been a few people who've looked into preseason records as indicators of regular season success. Hollinger, in particular, found it a relatively accurate way to predict which teams would see a breakout season during the regular season - a theory which he used in part when he predicted the Raptors would break out the year they won 47 games.

Sure, there are always outliers, but those outliers are more often than not good teams that don't take preseason so serious at the start and wind up playing close to .500 ball thanks to coming on strong at the end. To see just how preseason can, in fact, play out as a slightly warped version of the regular season, just take a look at the preseason standings right now. Aside from the Cavs being 2-3 and maybe the Hornets at 2-4 and the Nuggets at 1-2, the top teams are all where you'd expect them to be. Some teams are doing slightly better than they traditionally have, but odds are that makes them better candicates for a breakout season than the Raptors. It isn't a hard and fast rule, just a statistical observation on likelihoods.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#27 » by kush- » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:47 pm

im calling bull$hit on this whole "time to gel" garbage. the team will have 2 months under their belt before the real season starts, and i think that's more than enough time for a coach to install his system.

ppl keep talking about the 9 new players on our team. well guess what, our core remains exactly the same with calderon-bosh-bargani. we changed 2 of our starters and supposedly improved our bench 10fold. Look at a team like Orlando, they replaced 2 starters in losing turk and courtney lee, what happened to their "time to gel"?

We look at our game with Boston, and people keep referring to how we're facing a team that's "been together" for 2+seasons and a championship. But why doesn't anyone mention how they salvaged their ENTIRE team, and hit the ground running? Boston recreated their team from top to bottom, and when the season started, they never looked back, and won a championship in the process.

So STOP already with this "time to gel" garbage. If our team is as talented as everyone says it is, then it is up to the coach to bring all the pieces together. No more excuses.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#28 » by Tofubeque » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:01 pm

canguy20m wrote:it's not really about the losses in preseason it's how the games played out. the raptors have been blown out of most of their preseason games. playing at home doesn't seem to make a difference.


Well of course not, have you seen the crowds they've been playing in front of?

MLSE isn't doing the Raps any favours by charging full price for preseason games. :nonono:
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#29 » by quickymgee » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:51 pm

kush- wrote:im calling bull$hit on this whole "time to gel" garbage. the team will have 2 months under their belt before the real season starts, and i think that's more than enough time for a coach to install his system.

ppl keep talking about the 9 new players on our team. well guess what, our core remains exactly the same with calderon-bosh-bargani. we changed 2 of our starters and supposedly improved our bench 10fold. Look at a team like Orlando, they replaced 2 starters in losing turk and courtney lee, what happened to their "time to gel"?

We look at our game with Boston, and people keep referring to how we're facing a team that's "been together" for 2+seasons and a championship. But why doesn't anyone mention how they salvaged their ENTIRE team, and hit the ground running? Boston recreated their team from top to bottom, and when the season started, they never looked back, and won a championship in the process.

So STOP already with this "time to gel" garbage. If our team is as talented as everyone says it is, then it is up to the coach to bring all the pieces together. No more excuses.


nah i don't think it's enough time to gel together as a team at all, not to mention installing a new team mentality, and new staff. If you're watching the preseason games, and not seeing improvements with each passing game (proof that it's a matter of gel time, and practice of new systems and habits), then you're not watching the games. Boston hit the ground running in their first year together, because they have a core of 30 year old allstar vets, all of whom had been leaders of their respective teams before joining the Cs. I don't know if you understand the importnace of that. We have one allstar who has 5 less years in experience in Bosh. Do you think he'll be a BETTER leader or a WORSE leader given 5 more years as leader of a team? Now multiply that by 3 and you get Boston. I'd say if you got all three of those players at the age of 25 you would have been looking at a much more disfunctional team. If Bosh, calderon, and bargnani all had like 10 years of experience under their belt, do you not think that would help in their ability to bring along the other teamates and execute a system? Turkoglu is the only real veteran coming into this team, and he came in late. He's also not yet looked at as a leader of the team yet. That still lies on the relatively young bosh who, while is no longer a rookie, i don't think is much of a wise veteran yet. he's still learning that.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#30 » by Gold Chain » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:00 pm

Triano.

No one on here could possibly have a valid opinion of him as a coach yet. Impossible.

We'll see what happens when the lights go up.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#31 » by Double Helix » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:07 pm

Tofubeque wrote:
canguy20m wrote:it's not really about the losses in preseason it's how the games played out. the raptors have been blown out of most of their preseason games. playing at home doesn't seem to make a difference.


Well of course not, have you seen the crowds they've been playing in front of?

MLSE isn't doing the Raps any favours by charging full price for preseason games. :nonono:


Yeah, less than 7000 fans at the game against Boston, including some die-hard Celtics fans who made the trip. Is this a sign of our season? Only 7000 fans per game? ;)
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#32 » by JohnnyFlame » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:11 pm

Triano is correct. Especially when considering Bosh injured, Turk with not enough rest, Calderon coming off of injury. Three key players--not at 100%. Wright who will add defense not even in the picture. Evans who instantly was giving them what they haven't had in years quickly on the shelf.

Defense and toughness. Two players that can provide it not healthy. Offense with a lot of scoring options. Three important cogs not ready. Only AB at full strength.

They have one starter operating at full strength. They have numerous players who are new to each other, the coaching staff and the systems they will be using. I wouldn't expect under the circumstances they would be winning many games.

Fans just need to readjust. The Turk thing was a surprise. That Jose wasn't completely ready to go was a known. Then Bosh gets hurt. Then Evans and Wright. What looked like a great opportunity to have them working together didn't work out as planned. Still they should have the system learning well on it's way. Injuries etc. have slowed the process--Oh well that's how it goes. They won't have a winning preseason--Whoopee doo!!!!!!!
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#33 » by supaSPED » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:12 pm

if he's happy with crap defense than im against
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#34 » by Basketball_Jones » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:36 pm

There are nine new players, but only two of them should be playing 20 plus minutes. Jack and Turk. Everyone else really don't matter very much. Toughness with Wright and Evans is so overrated on this board. Those guys won't be playing big minutes, the chemistry needs to come from your starters.
So far, Calderon, Bosh, Turk, and Derozan have all been underwhelming. I'd say Turk is starting to get it though. However, I wouldn't be too worried about Bosh and Jose. They'll be okay, we know what they can do. It's the two guard rotation that everyone should be worried about. Without AP there, it's pretty much an experiment. Without any consistency there, I don't see the success that a lot of people do.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#35 » by zilby » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:29 am

As of now, nobody can say. All we can hope for is that he pulls through before the season starts.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#36 » by chsh22 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:04 am

I think Triano knows more about basketball than 99.9% of RealGM posters. I think it's only logical to believe him - for now.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#37 » by Korr » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:19 am

chsh22 wrote:I think Triano knows more about basketball than 99.9% of RealGM posters. I think it's only logical to believe him - for now.


Even if Phil, Pops, or Larry Brown coached the Raptors this board will find a way to dismiss them.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#38 » by carlosey » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:40 am

In the first season when BC came here with garbo and AP it was a very similar situation. Lots of new faces. You could see the team play well for stretches but never for an entire game. Then about 20 games in things clicked in and boom Atlantic div champs.

It takes time to get all the gears aligned. Lets just use a bit of our own history to understand that a new team with new faces does indeed have a learning curve that takes some time.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#39 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:45 am

I think Triano is highly overrated on this board: "ZOMG!1!1!@ h3's teamUzA minicamp coach!1! COY fo' sho!1!" But I'll agree with him here and say that preseason results are 110% meaningless and that we'll see what this team can truly do once the regular season starts.
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Re: Who's right about pre-season: you or Triano? 

Post#40 » by raptors09 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:02 am

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