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Good Bargs, Bad Bargs

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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#21 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:50 pm

I love threads like these.

Good basketball teams have always worked the ball inside out, not the other way around.

By establishing Bosh early in the paint, teams collapse, which leaves a dead eye shooters like Bargs that much more open. It takes a while to get teams to start doing that which is usually the reason for Bargs not getting as many shots early, which Bargs seems fine with as even when he touches the ball early in the game, he isn't looking for his own shot, he's looking for others inside.

IMO, offensively this season they've played off of each other very well, heck they are generating near 48 points per game between the two of them. That's 45% of the team's point production on 38% of the team's FGA.

Please let the Bargs vs. Bosh stuff go. The offense is working beautifully, they are working very well together on that end of the floor and you can see that they are both dialed into the gameplan and buy into it TOGETHER.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#22 » by Korr » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:54 pm

Dangerously Dan wrote:
416hustla wrote:
ADROCK wrote:jesus..u see this crap?...bargs is this sites damn whipping boy.


I am not trying to Bash Bargnani at all. In fact I praise him for being clutch. I am merely pointing out a fact though.


It's not a fact. At all.

This.

The stupidity of some posters amaze me sometimes. Kobe didn't score any points in the 2nd half last night. OP why don't you go to the the Lakers board and start a thread about how inconsistent he is?
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#23 » by Veggamattic » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:55 pm

Bargnani was the same last year but when he was hot in the first half his second half was weak. He doesn't seem to be able to put both together. He also never has a game with both halves weak.

He also seems to play better when he is not on the floor with Bosh at the same time.

It is much more likely to see Bargnani feeding Bosh than the opposite.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#24 » by raps_aviator » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:59 pm

The only thing i dont get.. He plays C for our team and the man had 2 boards in 33 minutes. If u play that position u automatically get around 2-3 boards because u play inside and the ball just lands to u which shows that he had no intensity or urge to get rebounds yesterday.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#25 » by Ari_Emanuel » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:18 pm

When you look at the stat sheet there's no doubt that we need Bargnani's 19- 20 ppg. I love him for that, and his clutch shooting. My concern though, and I think this is a concern for many others too, is that the way his game is right now, he's a ticking time bomb. He has been shooting the lights out and I'm not sure if he can keep this up all year. If he suddenly goes through a dry spell, which tends to happen for all shooters, then his points ppg will plummet, and we will crash and burn since he is our second leading scorer. If he played inside more, mixed it up and crashed the boards, his own ppg would improve because he'd give himself the opportunity to get easy buckets, our offense would improve, and our defense (opp PPG avg) would improve becuase we'd take a couple more positions away from our opponents each game.

Its frustrating that people look at last nights game when the rebounding numbers were so close between us and the clips an say, "since clips only out rebounded us 36-34 today, Bargs lack of rebounding didn't affect us". That is fallacious reasoning and a reason why I think classes in logic should be taught in grade school notjust university philosophy classes. The impact that rebounding has on a team's chance of winning doesn't diminish as the total rebounding numbers become equal between two teams. Rebounding is zero sum. Either we get it or the other team gets its. If bargs was atleast an average rebounder, we would be getting the ball a lot more and could take more possessions away from teams. This would go a long way in curing our defensive woes.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#26 » by sl64 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:24 pm

Bargs still seems to have lapses in concentration... we've seen him show flashes of a post game and some rebounding ability, but it seems like he loses focus from time to time and reverts to "camp out at the 3 point line and launch 3s" Bargs. If we had a coach with any coaching ability he would involve Bargs more in the offense, giving him touches in a variety of spots on the court, and working him into the pick and roll game more. Unfortunately we have Triano.

JD225 wrote:The "Andrea needs more touches" movement needs a rest. Do you people know that Andrea hasn't had fewer than 12 FG attempts this season in ANY game?


He shouldn't be getting less than 15 in any game... and anyway my problem is less with the amount of touches he's getting and more with the way he's getting them.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#27 » by The Chucker » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:24 pm

JD225 wrote:The "Andrea needs more touches" movement needs a rest. Do you people know that Andrea hasn't had fewer than 12 FG attempts this season in ANY game?


What do you mean? Didn't you see his teammates ignoring him in the 1st AND 2nd Q? I don't even like Bargnani, but he's need to get more involved in the offense or else he's going to be useless. What's the point of keeping him out there when he's not going to play offense? He's going to kill us on the glass and defense.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#28 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:28 pm

I've noticed this as well. But to be fair, in last night's game, everyone sucked in the first half.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#29 » by dagger » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:37 pm

raps_aviator wrote:The only thing i dont get.. He plays C for our team and the man had 2 boards in 33 minutes. If u play that position u automatically get around 2-3 boards because u play inside and the ball just lands to u which shows that he had no intensity or urge to get rebounds yesterday.


Two boards isn't enough but what some of you whackos won't admit is that anyone playing C for us who is asked to hedge out to the perimeter on every play - which a lot of big men can't do as effectively - and who plays besides Chris Bosh - a rebounding machine - isn't going to get as many as you might think.

How many power forwards can average close to 12 boards a game like Bosh?

On most teams, the C gets more boards, but the power forward gets fewer boards.

We happen to have a situation where our power forward is an excellent rebounder and zones in on any available board.

So should AB be averaging more like seven boards a game?

Yes.

Does he need to be averaging like 8-10 boards just because he is tall?

No. Bosh is almost as tall, is more athletic, and wants the bulk of the boards.

Finally, blocks and especially shot alterations have a direct impact on team D. Rebounds less so if others on your team are pulling them in.

Bargnani's impact in this area is considerable, though less quantifiable because there isn't a statistic for shot alterations and frankly, some blocks just aren't credited.

By the way, if you want to broaden the debate, why does AB block more shots than Bosh? Is Bosh a bad shot blocker? Christ, he's almost seven feet tall, athletic, muscular and he can't block shots?

Or is it just a situation where Bosh gets the boards, and AB gets some more blocks, and together they pretty much get the rebounds and blocks - and alter the shots - that you'd expect, except that aren't divided conventionally.

And as we know, most people on this board are stuck thinking in conventional terms that the C has to do blah, blah, blah, the PF has to do blah, blah, blah, and if it isn't just so then it can't be right or effective.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#30 » by KG1585 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:43 pm

Undefeated wrote:The thing is, Bargnani plays well when his teammate’s gives him touches which is Good Bargnani and last night his teammates didn't even bother giving him the ball in the first half which was Bad Bargnani. His shots weren't falling last night in the first half for sure, though he was scoring in the paint with a running hook and a drive on Kaman IIRC. It's true that you don't feed cold players until they get hot, but last night wasn't an example of Bargnani being cold. He was solid, but his teammates completely ignored him.


The thing about Bargs is he doesn't do anything else to get the ball if he is being ignored. If Bosh doesn't get the ball he will crash the glass and get offensive rebounds to get the ball. Bargs just stands at the three point line whether he touches the ball or not. He has to find a way to get himself more involved. It's all up to him, not his teammates.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#31 » by Guy Smiley » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:50 pm

I know Andrea is the best man to man defender on the team and perhaps in team history but why is it the stats on 82games.com seem to reflect otherwise?

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910TOR.HTM

According to production - own vs OPP Bosh looks to have a slight edge on Andrea. I know it is close but it is nice to see Bosh hanging tough with a defensive monster like Andrea.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#32 » by sl64 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:50 pm

KG1585 wrote:
Undefeated wrote:The thing is, Bargnani plays well when his teammate’s gives him touches which is Good Bargnani and last night his teammates didn't even bother giving him the ball in the first half which was Bad Bargnani. His shots weren't falling last night in the first half for sure, though he was scoring in the paint with a running hook and a drive on Kaman IIRC. It's true that you don't feed cold players until they get hot, but last night wasn't an example of Bargnani being cold. He was solid, but his teammates completely ignored him.


The thing about Bargs is he doesn't do anything else to get the ball if he is being ignored. If Bosh doesn't get the ball he will crash the glass and get offensive rebounds to get the ball. Bargs just stands at the three point line whether he touches the ball or not. He has to find a way to get himself more involved. It's all up to him, not his teammates.


The thing is... at some point, the coach has to hold him accountable for this. And Triano certainly isn't doing that. I shudder when I think of all the bad habits these guys have formed after years of playing for Smitch and Triano (combined IQs = 150)
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#33 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:51 pm

sl64 wrote:Bargs still seems to have lapses in concentration... we've seen him show flashes of a post game and some rebounding ability, but it seems like he loses focus from time to time and reverts to "camp out at the 3 point line and launch 3s" Bargs. If we had a coach with any coaching ability he would involve Bargs more in the offense, giving him touches in a variety of spots on the court, and working him into the pick and roll game more. Unfortunately we have Triano.

JD225 wrote:The "Andrea needs more touches" movement needs a rest. Do you people know that Andrea hasn't had fewer than 12 FG attempts this season in ANY game?


He shouldn't be getting less than 15 in any game... and anyway my problem is less with the amount of touches he's getting and more with the way he's getting them.


How do you get a player 15 FGA+/game when that player consistantly stands at the 3pt line waiting for the ball to be passed to him?
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#34 » by D-Wins-RingsIMO » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:54 pm

dagger wrote:
raps_aviator wrote:The only thing i dont get.. He plays C for our team and the man had 2 boards in 33 minutes. If u play that position u automatically get around 2-3 boards because u play inside and the ball just lands to u which shows that he had no intensity or urge to get rebounds yesterday.


Two boards isn't enough but what some of you whackos won't admit is that anyone playing C for us who is asked to hedge out to the perimeter on every play - which a lot of big men can't do as effectively - and who plays besides Chris Bosh - a rebounding machine - isn't going to get as many as you might think.

How many power forwards can average close to 12 boards a game like Bosh?

On most teams, the C gets more boards, but the power forward gets fewer boards.

We happen to have a situation where our power forward is an excellent rebounder and zones in on any available board.

So should AB be averaging more like seven boards a game?

Yes.

Does he need to be averaging like 8-10 boards just because he is tall?

No. Bosh is almost as tall, is more athletic, and wants the bulk of the boards.

Finally, blocks and especially shot alterations have a direct impact on team D. Rebounds less so if others on your team are pulling them in.

Bargnani's impact in this area is considerable, though less quantifiable because there isn't a statistic for shot alterations and frankly, some blocks just aren't credited.

By the way, if you want to broaden the debate, why does AB block more shots than Bosh? Is Bosh a bad shot blocker? Christ, he's almost seven feet tall, athletic, muscular and he can't block shots?

Or is it just a situation where Bosh gets the boards, and AB gets some more blocks, and together they pretty much get the rebounds and blocks - and alter the shots - that you'd expect, except that aren't divided conventionally.

And as we know, most people on this board are stuck thinking in conventional terms that the C has to do blah, blah, blah, the PF has to do blah, blah, blah, and if it isn't just so then it can't be right or effective.


Your point is valid in a sense, however before you go calling ppl whackos you might want to explain how our 28th DRR is happening ...

ie. If Bargs is going to get fewer than expected boards b/c of where he has to stand on the floor to play D --- ok fine. However, please tell us who is dropping the **** ball rebounding? It sure isn't Derozan, who is going way above par for a SG.

So unless you want to add a corollary that Hedo is a horrible rebounder for a SF, your point is moot. You can't say "hey the game has changed, C's don't have to rebound anymore to be effective" and then also say our PF is a hell of a rebounder without finishing the statement and calling someone else out for our deficiencies.

We're 28 out of 30 in defensive boards even though we have this apparent god rebounding at PF for us. Something isn't adding up.

My take - Bargs rebound rate should be at least 33% higher to be borderline. Anything beyond that is slack that his teammates need to pick up for him.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#35 » by D-Wins-RingsIMO » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:56 pm

take #2 - shoddy perimeter D is hurting only Bargnani when it comes to rebounding the ball, but not Bosh.

I mean sure we can get by as 28/30 on DRR and maybe still get the 4/5 seed, but there has to be a systematic explanation for why we're so turrible on defensive boards.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#36 » by fabste » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:56 pm

dagger wrote:
raps_aviator wrote:The only thing i dont get.. He plays C for our team and the man had 2 boards in 33 minutes. If u play that position u automatically get around 2-3 boards because u play inside and the ball just lands to u which shows that he had no intensity or urge to get rebounds yesterday.


Two boards isn't enough but what some of you whackos won't admit is that anyone playing C for us who is asked to hedge out to the perimeter on every play - which a lot of big men can't do as effectively - and who plays besides Chris Bosh - a rebounding machine - isn't going to get as many as you might think.

How many power forwards can average close to 12 boards a game like Bosh?

On most teams, the C gets more boards, but the power forward gets fewer boards.

We happen to have a situation where our power forward is an excellent rebounder and zones in on any available board.

So should AB be averaging more like seven boards a game?

Yes.

Does he need to be averaging like 8-10 boards just because he is tall?

No. Bosh is almost as tall, is more athletic, and wants the bulk of the boards.

Finally, blocks and especially shot alterations have a direct impact on team D. Rebounds less so if others on your team are pulling them in.

Bargnani's impact in this area is considerable, though less quantifiable because there isn't a statistic for shot alterations and frankly, some blocks just aren't credited.

By the way, if you want to broaden the debate, why does AB block more shots than Bosh? Is Bosh a bad shot blocker? Christ, he's almost seven feet tall, athletic, muscular and he can't block shots?

Or is it just a situation where Bosh gets the boards, and AB gets some more blocks, and together they pretty much get the rebounds and blocks - and alter the shots - that you'd expect, except that aren't divided conventionally.

And as we know, most people on this board are stuck thinking in conventional terms that the C has to do blah, blah, blah, the PF has to do blah, blah, blah, and if it isn't just so then it can't be right or effective.



very true
The only thing that i really want more from bargs is the fire, the nastiness.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#37 » by sl64 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:59 pm

Local_NG_Idiot wrote:
sl64 wrote:Bargs still seems to have lapses in concentration... we've seen him show flashes of a post game and some rebounding ability, but it seems like he loses focus from time to time and reverts to "camp out at the 3 point line and launch 3s" Bargs. If we had a coach with any coaching ability he would involve Bargs more in the offense, giving him touches in a variety of spots on the court, and working him into the pick and roll game more. Unfortunately we have Triano.

JD225 wrote:The "Andrea needs more touches" movement needs a rest. Do you people know that Andrea hasn't had fewer than 12 FG attempts this season in ANY game?


He shouldn't be getting less than 15 in any game... and anyway my problem is less with the amount of touches he's getting and more with the way he's getting them.


How do you get a player 15 FGA+/game when that player consistantly stands at the 3pt line waiting for the ball to be passed to him?


Like I said, the coach finds a way to get him the ball in different spots and holds him accountable for drifting through games and hanging out at the 3 point line. Why isn't Triano insisting that Bargs try posting up 3-4 times per game?
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#38 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:02 pm

dagger wrote:Two boards isn't enough but what some of you whackos won't admit is that anyone playing C for us who is asked to hedge out to the perimeter on every play - which a lot of big men can't do as effectively - and who plays besides Chris Bosh - a rebounding machine - isn't going to get as many as you might think.

How many power forwards can average close to 12 boards a game like Bosh?

On most teams, the C gets more boards, but the power forward gets fewer boards.

We happen to have a situation where our power forward is an excellent rebounder and zones in on any available board.

So should AB be averaging more like seven boards a game?

Yes.

Does he need to be averaging like 8-10 boards just because he is tall?

No. Bosh is almost as tall, is more athletic, and wants the bulk of the boards.

Finally, blocks and especially shot alterations have a direct impact on team D. Rebounds less so if others on your team are pulling them in.

Bargnani's impact in this area is considerable, though less quantifiable because there isn't a statistic for shot alterations and frankly, some blocks just aren't credited.

By the way, if you want to broaden the debate, why does AB block more shots than Bosh? Is Bosh a bad shot blocker? Christ, he's almost seven feet tall, athletic, muscular and he can't block shots?

Or is it just a situation where Bosh gets the boards, and AB gets some more blocks, and together they pretty much get the rebounds and blocks - and alter the shots - that you'd expect, except that aren't divided conventionally.

And as we know, most people on this board are stuck thinking in conventional terms that the C has to do blah, blah, blah, the PF has to do blah, blah, blah, and if it isn't just so then it can't be right or effective.


These arguments are such a stretch of an excuse for Bargs being flat out a very poor rebounder. He isn't blocking or attempting to block anymore shots than Bosh is. He isn't hedging anymore screens than Bosh is. Bosh and Bargs interchange who they guard throughout the game based on who they have to pick up in transition so Bargs is not taking on more "defensive" responsibilies over Bosh.

When your coach publicly states that he has a problem tracking the ball and it forces the guards to compensate, then just call a spade a spade and admit that he is a poor rebounder.

Can he improve? I sure hope so, as he's shown he can improve other aspects of his game.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#39 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:10 pm

sl64 wrote:Like I said, the coach finds a way to get him the ball in different spots and holds him accountable for drifting through games and hanging out at the 3 point line. Why isn't Triano insisting that Bargs try posting up 3-4 times per game?


You do realize this team has the best offensive efficiency in the league right? You realize the coaching staff has implemented an offensive system with the current personel that can pretty much score at will right?

You do realize that Barg's role in that team offensive system is the 1st option when defenses shift to cover the players who are responsible for creating right? What is pretty obvious to some is that Bargs is not on a level yet to consistantly create his own offense. He gets turnover prone and he still gets a little out of control when the defense is focussed on him being the primary option responsible for creating.

He's averaging career highs in FGA, USG, and minutes.

Why mess with anything on the offensive when it's the BEST IN THE LEAGUE with him as the second option?

The defensive end is an entirely different argument.
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Re: Good Bargs, Bad Bargs 

Post#40 » by Undefeated » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:10 pm

KG1585 wrote:The thing about Bargs is he doesn't do anything else to get the ball if he is being ignored. If Bosh doesn't get the ball he will crash the glass and get offensive rebounds to get the ball. Bargs just stands at the three point line whether he touches the ball or not. He has to find a way to get himself more involved. It's all up to him, not his teammates.


I dunno man. I got a few clips from Game in 6 Minutes just to see what Bargnani was doing when he didn't get the ball. I'll try to get more from GIAH though...

2:44 Turkoglu takes/makes the long 2 pointer and here you see Bargnani running towards the paint what looks like he's about to box-out or crash.

3:33 Calderon sends the ball to Bosh inside and again you see Bargnani running towards the paint to help Bosh if the ball rattled out. Where the hell was Turkoglu, he's suppose to help out too.

4:35 Here you're right, Bargnani didn't even bother to go inside.
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