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Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts

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Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#1 » by anotherhomer » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:00 pm

I think with a new salary cap agreement looming soon, the Raptors will probably be stuck with some long overpaid contracts that will burden them and handicap their abilities to make future moves.

1) Hedo (5 yr/53M). The guy's showing signs of decline, averaging only 14 pts/4 rebounds a game. The signing feels similar to Peja (5 yr/65M). In one or two years, the guy will only be a 5-6M player, with us paying him 10-11M. That extra 5-6 M in overpaid will hurt.

If you think about it, BG who's much younger, athletic and skilled is getting a similar amount. And the guy's lights it up for 20 pts a game and makes unbelievable shots.

2) Jarret Jack (5 yr/20M) - The guy's showing he is only a subpar PG. With his performance these days, we can get a similar PG for 2-3 M.

3) Calderon (5 yr/45M) - The guy's defensive liabilities really negate his offensive power. Kinda like Steve Blake him expect Calderon gets paid way more.

Soon to be Chris Bosh
Chris Bosh (6 yr/130M) - As much as I love Chris Bosh and how he's so important to the team and etc, such a max signing has all the comings of a Chris Webber or Jermaine O'Neal troubles. Both bigs were highly sought after, were considered promising young bigs but after signing the contract, they had a lot of issues with leg injuries and their contracts prove to be burdensome.

There's a lot of concerns about whether Chris Bosh won't start breaking down during the 6 years, whether his new body training can hold up (he won't revert back to the skinny dude), or the the new muscles will take a toll on his legs.

Oh well, here's hoping that prove wrong about a team that is good enough to make the playoffs each year but not good enough to get anywhere.


FLIP, we could had gotten Brandon Jennings.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#2 » by douggood » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:03 pm

realities of professional sports. the raptors arent in terrible position, not ideal but certainly not crippling.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#3 » by killerbs » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:04 pm

meh..what can you do..
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#4 » by Basketball_Jones » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:06 pm

You don't sound like "another homer" at all!
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#5 » by Veggamattic » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:07 pm

anotherhomer wrote:I think with a new salary cap agreement looming soon, the Raptors will probably be stuck with some long overpaid contracts that will burden them and handicap their abilities to make future moves.

1) Hedo (5 yr/53M). The guy's showing signs of decline, averaging only 14 pts/4 rebounds a game. The signing feels similar to Peja (5 yr/65M). In one or two years, the guy will only be a 5-6M player, with us paying him 10-11M. That extra 5-6 M in overpaid will hurt.

If you think about it, BG who's much younger, athletic and skilled is getting a similar amount. And the guy's lights it up for 20 pts a game and makes unbelievable shots.



I agree that we paid way too much for Hedo...and I've also made the Peja comparison. This is why I'd like to see him included in a Stephen Jackson package deal. Before the rest of the league figures out how much we overpaid.

I can't think of one game so far that Hedo has been a major factor in a win.

Think about how much more of an impact Marion had in his short time here.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#6 » by J Dilla » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:10 pm

1) Hedo's being underused. He shouldn't be playing with Jose Calderon at all. Jose Calderon likes to hold on to the ball while Hedo's standing on the corner. I swear Hedo was more active in the Orlando offense last year. This is probably first time in his career he's playing for a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) coach.

2) Jack- Our coaching staff can't use him. They don't know how to use him. They've turned him into a jumpshooter when he clearly has a creating/penetrating game. I'm dissappointed in Jack's play, but I think this is a case where he's not being used properly. Watching him in Indiana and comparing it to the 9 games he's played here, this is not the same Jarrett Jack. They only played him 16 minutes yesterday. :roll: How many times have we heard Triano talk about Jack playing PG. He's always talked about playing him at SG.

3) Jose should be getting paid Jack's salary. Colangelo jumped the gun.

4) For Bosh, the only concern I have is he's probably going to give a regular 20/9 when he gets that contract. I know he'll play like an all-star, but I'm not 100% sure he's gonna bring the same intensity after signing the contract. I'm not saying he'll slack, but historically some players fall asleep after getting their deals. Bosh has the work ethic though to keep getting better and better every year, and he's still our best player.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#7 » by beno » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:10 pm

With a resigned Bosh, we are allocating 80% of our salary to 4 players.
Upon success by the team, MLSE should consider going into luxury tax for a couple of seasons.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#8 » by Winggfly » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:12 pm

Marcus Banks also? lol
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#9 » by dagger » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:13 pm

To the OP

I don't care about the next CBA since it is likely to allow us to waive a player just as the last agreement did.

Let's say that after the 2010-11 season we feel we've had the best of Turkuglu, well we could use an amnesty to waive him. We pay him his cash, but not the tax, and the balance of his deal is removed. Or maybe we waive JJ.

I don't think we're burdened like you suggest.

Burdened is where you give major money to players who, after a year, end up with chronic injuries that make them ineffective, but not incapacitated.

Yes, like JO or Webber, but we don't have any of those and to shy away from giving a player $20 million because he might suffer a serious injury related decline is to basically say we should trade off expensive guys and stay safely in the lottery each and every year because then we will never have a bad contract.

Don't compare Hedo to Peja. Peja got more money, and immediately went out and tore up his shoulder and has never been the same. Hedo is a bit run down from his summer playing for Turkey, but I'd guess that after 2010, he will end his international involvement. He hasn't had those kinds of surgeries and he isn't dependent on great athleticism. Heck, last night he was clearly laboring with that sore hip and he was still effective.

Calderon - no, his defensive deficiencies don't outweigh his offensive contribution, not when his shot is falling. Don't compare him to Steve Blake. Blake is a good shooter but no floor general at all.

Jack - nine games into the season and you're writing him off? IT's not like he's being paid a fortune, and it's not like he hasn't played better, so why even bother denigrating him right now.

As for your description of this team overall, who knows yet. We have youth - AB, MB, DD, AJ are all young. Bosh, for that matter, is still young. He might not have big upside over where he is today but with more experience comes better BB IQ and it wouldn't surprise me if he continues to make incremental improvements in his overall play until he's about 30.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#10 » by Basketball_Jones » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:18 pm

To be honest, Hudo is more efficient now that he doesn't have the ball in his hands so often. Unfortunately, it's affecting his overall output. However, if Jose keeps playing the way he is playing then I really don't care. A 16 and 7 Jose with a 14 and 4 Hudo with good efficiency is adequate.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#11 » by taruky1 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:18 pm

I don't think that you can make a judgement on the Hedo acquisition at this point. He played hurt last night and still was respectable. He makes smart plays, gets the ball to teammates in positions where they can make plays, and can score when needed. He has been very unselfish, almost to a fault, because the Raptors have a lot of guys who like to shoot. His role and impact will increase as the year goes on. He is not THAT old.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#12 » by draft » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:19 pm

Banks and Evans are expiring next year. That's 10 million in expirings. We're not crippled. But we will be crippled when Hedo is 35 and making over 12 million/yr. He'll be similar to Peja currently in New Orleans.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#13 » by anotherhomer » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:32 pm

draft wrote:Banks and Evans are expiring next year. That's 10 million in expirings. We're not crippled. But we will be crippled when Hedo is 35 and making over 12 million/yr. He'll be similar to Peja currently in New Orleans.


That's what i'm trying to point out about Hedo.

Vince Carter's game does depend on athletism but the fact the Carter on the decline at age 32 is more athletic than Derozan still, says that VC can still be very effective
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#14 » by Upgrayedd » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:42 pm

anotherhomer wrote:
draft wrote:Banks and Evans are expiring next year. That's 10 million in expirings. We're not crippled. But we will be crippled when Hedo is 35 and making over 12 million/yr. He'll be similar to Peja currently in New Orleans.


That's what i'm trying to point out about Hedo.

Vince Carter's game does depend on athletism but the fact the Carter on the decline at age 32 is more athletic than Derozan still, says that VC can still be very effective


Why are you talking about Vince?
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#15 » by mapko81 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:46 pm

If Hedo missed his entire first year with the Raptors due to debilitating back surgery, his deal would be similar to Peja's. Like this, the comparison is really weak. Peja got more total money over 4 years than than Turkoglu did over 5, and he has barely contributed since he signed.

Jack's contract is quite reasonable. 4-5 mill per year for a great back-up PG that can play starters minutes in a pinch, and is a good locker-room character? That's just deserved money. Boobie Gibson gets just as much money to shoot threes of the bench. Kirk Hinrich is making 9 mill backing up Rose. Vujacic makes over 5 mill with the Lakers. If you are part of the rotation in the NBA, you deserve to make 4-5 mill a year (less than average salary btw) and you have a very reasonable contract.

Jose is the only one I worry about. But Calderon has value around the league. Teams value his unselfishness and carefullness on the floor, his high percentages and his emotional approach to the game. He will always be a step slow on defence, but a contender would love having a point guard like Calderon.

And Bosh is an All-Star, end of story. Thus far he is playing like a 1st team All-NBAer. He is no Lebron or Wade, but he deserves the max. If he doesn't, then only 5 other players in the NBA do, which is ridiculous.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#16 » by theonlyeastcoastrapsfan » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:48 pm

mapko81 wrote:If Hedo missed his entire first year with the Raptors due to debilitating back surgery, his deal would be similar to Peja's. Like this, the comparison is really weak. Peja got more total money over 4 years than than Turkoglu did over 5, and he has barely contributed since he signed.

Jack's contract is quite reasonable. 4-5 mill per year for a great back-up PG that can play starters minutes in a pinch, and is a good locker-room character? That's just deserved money. Boobie Gibson gets just as much money to shoot threes of the bench. Kirk Hinrich is making 9 mill backing up Rose. Vujacic makes over 5 mill with the Lakers. If you are part of the rotation in the NBA, you deserve to make 4-5 mill a year (less than average salary btw) and you have a very reasonable contract.

Jose is the only one I worry about. But Calderon has value around the league. Teams value his unselfishness and carefullness on the floor, his high percentages and his emotional approach to the game. He will always be a step slow on defence, but a contender would love having a point guard like Calderon.

And Bosh is an All-Star, end of story. Thus far he is playing like a 1st team All-NBAer. He is no Lebron or Wade, but he deserves the max. If he doesn't, then only 5 other players in the NBA do, which is ridiculous.


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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#17 » by whysoserious » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:48 pm

I don't think any team is burdened by any contract, we've seen even the worse contracts can be moved.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#18 » by Tommy Udo 6 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:08 pm

Here are some points to consider.

Do not count on the amnesty waiving of a contract in the new CBA. When a team "amnesty waived" a player - they still had to pay that player in full! It's just that the slary wouldnt count toward Lux Tax.

The Knicks used all their influence to get that rule in. they had a number of bloated contracts and were paying about $40-50 million in Lux Tax at the time. They called it the "Allan Houston" rule, but the Knicks waived JYD instead - and then got Houston medically retired.

As for Raptor contracts, see this link.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages ... aptors.htm

As Sham points out, there are 4 Raptors with Trade Kickers & only one of those is a reasonable 5% (Bargnani). Three of the top 4 highest paid raptors have trade kickers. The one who doesnt - Bosh - will almost certainly insist on one next time.

It is a little surprising that BC is so free with Trade Kickers, which do make trades difficult if the player declines. The Bulls, by contrast, dont have any - although Salmons had one when they traded for him. Thus, he wouldnt have one if Bulls traded him.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#19 » by Hassassin » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:20 pm

J Dilla wrote:1) Hedo's being underused. He shouldn't be playing with Jose Calderon at all. Jose Calderon likes to hold on to the ball while Hedo's standing on the corner. I swear Hedo was more active in the Orlando offense last year. This is probably first time in his career he's playing for a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) coach.


Yep. Look at his usage rates compared to what it was in his last 2 seasons in Orlando:

2008-09 in Orlando: 23.0%
2007-08 in Orlando: 24.8% (his break out year)
Career usage rate: 21.2%

So far this season: 17.8%. Below his career average and 2nd lowest in his entire career.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#20 » by rtcaino » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:23 pm

dagger wrote:To the OP

I don't care about the next CBA since it is likely to allow us to waive a player just as the last agreement did.

Let's say that after the 2010-11 season we feel we've had the best of Turkuglu, well we could use an amnesty to waive him. We pay him his cash, but not the tax, and the balance of his deal is removed. Or maybe we waive JJ.

I don't think we're burdened like you suggest.

Burdened is where you give major money to players who, after a year, end up with chronic injuries that make them ineffective, but not incapacitated.

Yes, like JO or Webber, but we don't have any of those and to shy away from giving a player $20 million because he might suffer a serious injury related decline is to basically say we should trade off expensive guys and stay safely in the lottery each and every year because then we will never have a bad contract.

Don't compare Hedo to Peja. Peja got more money, and immediately went out and tore up his shoulder and has never been the same. Hedo is a bit run down from his summer playing for Turkey, but I'd guess that after 2010, he will end his international involvement. He hasn't had those kinds of surgeries and he isn't dependent on great athleticism. Heck, last night he was clearly laboring with that sore hip and he was still effective.

Calderon - no, his defensive deficiencies don't outweigh his offensive contribution, not when his shot is falling. Don't compare him to Steve Blake. Blake is a good shooter but no floor general at all.

Jack - nine games into the season and you're writing him off? IT's not like he's being paid a fortune, and it's not like he hasn't played better, so why even bother denigrating him right now.

As for your description of this team overall, who knows yet. We have youth - AB, MB, DD, AJ are all young. Bosh, for that matter, is still young. He might not have big upside over where he is today but with more experience comes better BB IQ and it wouldn't surprise me if he continues to make incremental improvements in his overall play until he's about 30.


Well put as always Dagger.

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