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Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts

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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#21 » by RapsVC15 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:27 pm

How the hell is 5/45 million for Jose Calderon a burden on this team?!

A guy that's one of the best shooters the games ever seen, amazing pick/roll guy, decent drive, high ast/to ration, and has played adequate defense so far in his career outside one season where he was battling an injury.

Calderon is worth every cent of that 9 mill per.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#22 » by djsunyc » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:57 pm

whysoserious wrote:I don't think any team is burdened by any contract, we've seen even the worse contracts can be moved.


considering zach randolph was moved twice in the past year, i would agree with your post...
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#23 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:07 pm

It's blasphemy to say Hedo was overpaid. You should know better by now. Because he doesn't rely on athleticism, it's impossible for him to decline with age.

He hasn't really started declining yet though, he's just being underused in our offence. He's actually been pretty good, a better fit than Marion offensively without a doubt. However, expect him to be a shell of his former self in the 3rd-4th years of the contract. That when he'll be overpaid.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#24 » by Grizzled » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:38 pm

anotherhomer wrote:I think with a new salary cap agreement looming soon, the Raptors will probably be stuck with some long overpaid contracts that will burden them and handicap their abilities to make future moves.

1) Hedo (5 yr/53M). The guy's showing signs of decline, averaging only 14 pts/4 rebounds a game. The signing feels similar to Peja (5 yr/65M). In one or two years, the guy will only be a 5-6M player, with us paying him 10-11M. That extra 5-6 M in overpaid will hurt.

If you think about it, BG who's much younger, athletic and skilled is getting a similar amount. And the guy's lights it up for 20 pts a game and makes unbelievable shots.

2) Jarret Jack (5 yr/20M) - The guy's showing he is only a subpar PG. With his performance these days, we can get a similar PG for 2-3 M.

3) Calderon (5 yr/45M) - The guy's defensive liabilities really negate his offensive power. Kinda like Steve Blake him expect Calderon gets paid way more.

Soon to be Chris Bosh
Chris Bosh (6 yr/130M) - As much as I love Chris Bosh and how he's so important to the team and etc, such a max signing has all the comings of a Chris Webber or Jermaine O'Neal troubles. Both bigs were highly sought after, were considered promising young bigs but after signing the contract, they had a lot of issues with leg injuries and their contracts prove to be burdensome.

There's a lot of concerns about whether Chris Bosh won't start breaking down during the 6 years, whether his new body training can hold up (he won't revert back to the skinny dude), or the the new muscles will take a toll on his legs.

Oh well, here's hoping that prove wrong about a team that is good enough to make the playoffs each year but not good enough to get anywhere.


FLIP, we could had gotten Brandon Jennings.

Oh, the irony of a ridiculous hatter calling himself “anotherhomer”. Anyone want to bet this is an HP alias?

The Raptors have fewer bad contracts than almost any other team in the league. This was true last year as well and it’s something BC does very well.

Calderon looks very much like he’s back on track and if he can continue to play as well as he has over the last 5 games or so then he’ll be a huge bargain at $8 million.

Hedo has shown no signs of declining and for a player of his calibre that’s a very reasonable contract.

Jack is overpaid if you only look at what he gives us on the court, but if you consider what he brings overall I don’t consider him overpaid. In any case, he’s making a below league average salary and isn’t eating up a tonne of cap space.

Banks is overpaid, but he’s gone in 2 at the most. AJ is likely a bit overpaid but he’s an expiring this year. Evans may be overpaid but not by much and his contract is up in 2 years as well. Unlike a lot of teams, we don’t have any huge, bad, contacts eating up our cap space. BC has a big brain and this is one of the ways that he is paying off for us.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#25 » by zilby » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:14 pm

we have BC.

And Hedo is underused.

Triano hasnt learned how to play jack yet.

calderon is fine.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#26 » by mtamasi » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:35 pm

don't care for the original post much, seems like everyone's looking for something to whine about. when has BC shown he will stick with players when they don't show value? there's always a trade out there and he can find it. I honestly like the way the team is progressing, sure I want to throw my tv out the window sometimes but you can definitely see that they're way better than what we've seen in a while.

IMO guys like Turk, Jack and Wright will be very important in the playoffs. let's not give them away yet, they might come in handy.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#27 » by anotherhomer » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:40 pm

alright, my beef is that the long-term contracts the Raptors have are 'alright' but they are not the types that would allow the Raptors to become an elite team or contender unless they go into the luxury tax territory, which something MLSE will not do. If you look at the good teams like Detroit (before Dumar blew it up) and SAS (before they decide to go all-in while Duncan has a few good yearsleft), their best players are not overpaid and in some cases, probably underpaid. Chauncey Billups, was getting only 6M a yr before signing a reasonable contract of 5yr/53M or so. Prince is at only 5 yr/45M. Manu is only 9-10M a year.

as it is for the years to come, the Raptors are only a team that is good enough to make the playoffs with a good chance of being eliminated in the first round and maybe a chance to get into the 2nd round at best.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#28 » by Fairview4Life » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:44 pm

anotherhomer wrote:alright, my beef is that the long-term contracts the Raptors have are 'alright' but they are not the types that would allow the Raptors to become an elite team or contender unless they go into the luxury tax territory, which something MLSE will not do. If you look at the good teams like Detroit (before Dumar blew it up) and SAS (before they decide to go all-in while Duncan has a few good yearsleft), their best players are not overpaid and in some cases, probably underpaid. Chauncey Billups, was getting only 6M a yr before signing a reasonable contract of 5yr/53M or so. Prince is at only 5 yr/45M. Manu is only 9-10M a year.

as it is for the years to come, the Raptors are only a team that is good enough to make the playoffs with a good chance of being eliminated in the first round and maybe a chance to get into the 2nd round at best.


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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#29 » by timdunkit » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:53 pm

Overpaid? Yes ... Overburden? No ... Hasn't BC shown that he can trade anyone (except maybe Banks)?
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#30 » by Indeed » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:09 pm

Hedo - We have no choice, I think the original contract was 8m. But the Blazers keeps coming. Also, he is under use in our system at the moment. He can definitely perform when he gets used to our system.

Bosh - We have no choice as well. Other teams are going to offer the same max contract. He worths it if he can improve on his defense, and make everyone involve on the offensive end. He is the leader, and he needs to get everyone involved

Jack - Blame Alvin Williams, lol. But I think he will worth that, as he gets used to our system.

Calderon - We can trade him, as he has value out there. I think the contract includes his relationship with Bosh, so he is worth it for keeping Bosh, I suppose.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#31 » by Assassin_1 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:16 pm

The only over paid contracts we have in my opinon are Evans, Banks, the rest are still being determined.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#32 » by timdunkit » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:16 pm

HA! wrote:
J Dilla wrote:1) Hedo's being underused. He shouldn't be playing with Jose Calderon at all. Jose Calderon likes to hold on to the ball while Hedo's standing on the corner. I swear Hedo was more active in the Orlando offense last year. This is probably first time in his career he's playing for a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) coach.


Yep. Look at his usage rates compared to what it was in his last 2 seasons in Orlando:

2008-09 in Orlando: 23.0%
2007-08 in Orlando: 24.8% (his break out year)
Career usage rate: 21.2%

So far this season: 17.8%. Below his career average and 2nd lowest in his entire career.


Hedo is being underused but so far we haven't needed him to play amazingly for us (our offense has no problems right now). Once teams do a little more scouting (9 new faces, we are quite new for scouts), I expect them to get better at containing the Jose/Bosh two man game and thats when Hedo's creativity will become extremely valuable and his usage will go up ...
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#33 » by theSkinny » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:19 pm

I am pretty sure Hedo usage will be more evident in the later half of the season.

HA! could you run those same numbers for him in his first 8 games of every year?
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#34 » by inbadtaste » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:24 pm

dagger wrote:To the OP

I don't care about the next CBA since it is likely to allow us to waive a player just as the last agreement did.

Let's say that after the 2010-11 season we feel we've had the best of Turkuglu, well we could use an amnesty to waive him. We pay him his cash, but not the tax, and the balance of his deal is removed. Or maybe we waive JJ.

I don't think we're burdened like you suggest.

Burdened is where you give major money to players who, after a year, end up with chronic injuries that make them ineffective, but not incapacitated.

Yes, like JO or Webber, but we don't have any of those and to shy away from giving a player $20 million because he might suffer a serious injury related decline is to basically say we should trade off expensive guys and stay safely in the lottery each and every year because then we will never have a bad contract.

Don't compare Hedo to Peja. Peja got more money, and immediately went out and tore up his shoulder and has never been the same. Hedo is a bit run down from his summer playing for Turkey, but I'd guess that after 2010, he will end his international involvement. He hasn't had those kinds of surgeries and he isn't dependent on great athleticism. Heck, last night he was clearly laboring with that sore hip and he was still effective.

Calderon - no, his defensive deficiencies don't outweigh his offensive contribution, not when his shot is falling. Don't compare him to Steve Blake. Blake is a good shooter but no floor general at all.

Jack - nine games into the season and you're writing him off? IT's not like he's being paid a fortune, and it's not like he hasn't played better, so why even bother denigrating him right now.

As for your description of this team overall, who knows yet. We have youth - AB, MB, DD, AJ are all young. Bosh, for that matter, is still young. He might not have big upside over where he is today but with more experience comes better BB IQ and it wouldn't surprise me if he continues to make incremental improvements in his overall play until he's about 30.

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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#35 » by Abba Zabba » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:49 pm

HA! wrote:
J Dilla wrote:1) Hedo's being underused. He shouldn't be playing with Jose Calderon at all. Jose Calderon likes to hold on to the ball while Hedo's standing on the corner. I swear Hedo was more active in the Orlando offense last year. This is probably first time in his career he's playing for a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) coach.


Yep. Look at his usage rates compared to what it was in his last 2 seasons in Orlando:

2008-09 in Orlando: 23.0%
2007-08 in Orlando: 24.8% (his break out year)
Career usage rate: 21.2%

So far this season: 17.8%. Below his career average and 2nd lowest in his entire career.


Sure he's being underused. Where limiting his time and involvement due to the crazy year of basketball he just played. I'm confident his role will increase when we hit the home stretch. On a side note, I love the way Triano is keeping key players' minutes down so we'll be ready when it matters.

A positive note contracts wise is that we have 2 that are looking like they're going to be great bargains. DD is still raw but I've seen enough to believe that next and the year after he's steal on that rookie contract. Andrea is, as usual, still growing but I'm beginning to feel pretty good about his extension.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#36 » by lucky777s » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:50 pm

Jack and Calderon only have 3 more years after this year. Jose is getting back into form and should certainly have 2-3 more good years left. Jack should be ok. If the fit is not great here I am sure his contract is easy enough to trade next season when it would only carry 2 additional years.

I do worry about Hedo. And I do worry about the effect Bosh's contract will have on our overall roster (if he stays). Bosh is proving worth the big money so far but that does not mean we can build a winner around him here if MLSE is not going to go well over the tax line.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#37 » by SkywalkerAC » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:38 am

next year is the year we're really going to be up against the tax. if he isn't allowed to go over it, BC will have to fill out the roster very frugally. given the economic climate, that shouldn't actually prove very difficult - this last offseason there were plenty of bargain basement players.

in 2011 we may get to cut an amnesty player, plus reggie and banks come off the books. and it's pretty likely that the cap and the lux tax threshold start creeping back up.

as for options for further development, we've got plenty, especially if BC convinces the MLSE it's time to spend for a winner. we can max out CB4. we can re-sign all our own players. we can buy a draft pick (though I can see why BC wasn't afraid to trade it away in this "economic climate"). and we've got the entire MLE.

the last one is huge, there are going to be some very good players available for the MLE in 2010. the superstars are going to get the lion's share and everyone else is going to get scraps. should be a buyer's market so I hope BC has something up his sleeve.
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Re: Raps burdened with some overpaid contracts 

Post#38 » by Deadpool Raptor » Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:51 am

Hedo has slipped into the starting lineup smoothly, hasn't disrupted the flow AT ALL, has hit a few critical 4th quarter threes, has played defense like he gives a rats ass, and has more playoff experience then our whole team combined (Rasho doesn't count because he has more playoff experience than the whole league combined).

Plus, he gives us another option at the end of the game, and as someone mentioned (sorry, forgot who you were, but great point), another perimeter guy that can stretch the defense and hit the three, opening things up for Bosh to rebound.

He was questionable for Friday's game and still sucked it up and played. Another ball handler who played the 2 man game with a big all of last season and can play with our 2 bigs, he has decent chemistry with both Bosh and Bargs already, and has fed Bosh some easy points.

PLUS, in the last year of his contract he'll be an 11 mill expiring, so that just leaves his 4th and potentially 3rd years as duds, but we don't even know if that'll be the case. The aforementioned Mr.Carter is a couple of years older then him and is still ballin', plus you have a number of older players in the NBA right now who are producing at an older age.

Jose, if he keeps attacking, is being paid what he's worth. If he becomes a spot up shooter, then no dice.

Jack, seriously, 4 million for a guy that people are pushing to get more minutes, not to mention is a youth.

One you didn't mention, who is overpaid, is Reggie Evans, but he's the grimiest cat on this team. No one rocks the oversize sports coat and un-tucked shirt like he does.

If we can't sign Bosh next season, we'll have 10 mill coming off the books to do something with. Plus, if we do sign Bosh, we could potentially work a sign and trade to get another huge contract over (Joe Johnson's sweet jumpshot would look deadly at the 2 for us).

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