Hollinger: In Toronto, 'D' stands for dreadful

[Harry Palmer]

stuff

When Bargnani is on the floor, we allow 117.1 points per 100 possessions. There's no real way around that fact. That's abysmal. Granted, we are slightly worse with him off the floor defensively but it doesn't really do a good job of disproving the fact that he's anchoring one of the worst defenses of all time.

So wait, when Bargs is the floor isn't Bosh the so called defensive anchor? Isn't he supposed to be a godly help defender, why are we so bad on defence despite having that big stiff on the bench? This team has way bigger issues that go beyond Bargnani on the defensive end, its time people start acknowledging that.

CENTER.

[Avenger]

So wait, when Bargs is the floor isn't Bosh the so called defensive anchor? Isn't he supposed to be a godly help defender, why are we so bad on defence despite having that big stiff on the bench? This team has way bigger issues that go beyond Bargnani on the defensive end, its time people start acknowledging that.

CENTER.

So shouldn't everyone be bitching and whining about Colangelo not getting us a real center instead of bashing a PF playing out of position. Or, people also need to be starting 5 threads a day about Bosh's defence because he's a PF too and when playing Center the team's defence has been equally bad and maybe worse.

[Phenomenologist]

You can try to just say "you guys are wrong, stop defending the undefendable" but it doesn't make you right. Especially when the fact is you are wrong. I'll say it again. This season, the raptors have been better on both offense AND defense when Bargnani is in the game, in total moreso than any other player. He blocks shots and actually makes a good effort to rotate and challenge shots as well - far moreso than his counterpart in Bosh (1.3 blocks to 0.9 blocks and 0.5 charges to 0.0 charges). The problem is that the PG position cannot defend, and this leaves Andrea hung out to dry so many times a game that there will always be a couple that look bad on him. Add in that these situations will force him to foul, which puts him on the bench and hurts the team, and he has to pick his spots sometimes and give up a layup here and there.

Bargnani is not the problem, unless you think you can bring in Dwight Howard to replace him. Jose/Jack are the problem. Stop using small sample size anecdotal evidence to try and back up your biases.

-"Especially when you are wrong."
-Unsubstantiated claim #1
-Unsubstantiated claim #2 (in fact, most of Bargnani's blocks and charges drawn arise while playing straight-up post D)
-"Bargnani is not the problem..."
-"Jose/Jack are the problem"
-"Stop using small sample anecdotal evidence to try and back up your biases"

Was this post meant to be ironic? Or self-mocking? You're doing virtually the same thing as I did. Or were his 1.3 blocks per game supposed to prove everything? Seriously, I deliberately chose not to substantiate anything, and only introduced my post definitively to make a rather mediocre pun while simultaneously expressing a certain amount of direness. That's it. I'm not trying to prove anything. My own personal view of things is that Bargnani is a terrible, terrible team defender who possesses terrible, terrible basketball IQ and that his solid post D does not come close to compensating for that. Period. You're welcome to disagree.

Then you are wrong. He played poor last game, and did not rotate quick enough, but if you say his post D is not solid, then I think you need to watch the game.

If you say that I said that his post D is not solid, then I think you need to reread the post.

[Scott Carefoot]

This is not true. Re-read that thread and you'll find the overwhelming majority agreeing with my perspective. Your train of thought, and Scotts is way off on this one and by and large, a little bitchy.

Bitchy? Heh. That's a new one. You have to admit, though, that there are people who just completely write off anything Hollinger says because of what they perceive as his obsession with his PER stat. That annoys me because I'm trying to fight the good fight to get advanced stats more accepted in the mainstream so that people don't continue to believe that per game averages are effective measurements.

[Harry Palmer]

So wait, when Bargs is the floor isn't Bosh the so called defensive anchor? Isn't he supposed to be a godly help defender, why are we so bad on defence despite having that big stiff on the bench? This team has way bigger issues that go beyond Bargnani on the defensive end, its time people start acknowledging that.

CENTER.

So shouldn't everyone be bitching and whining about Colangelo not getting us a real center instead of bashing a PF playing out of position.

This is a part of this whole thing I've never understood.

It's not personal, for me. It's like when people have defended Bargs' poor rebounding by citing that he plays outside, hence isn't morally to blame or whatever. Like that matters. If he rebounds poorly because of where he stands or his position in relation to the equator or sun-spot activity in the ozone layer, it doesn't matter. The result is poor rebounding from the center position. It's not a moral issue. I've never been sure why some people get so personal about this kind of thing.

This isn't about Andrea Bargnani, human being, earth...at least not for me. It's about Andrea Bargnani, center, Toronto Raptors. I'm actually pretty certain he's a nice guy, and I LOVE where he comes from, so this has nothing to do with liking him or justice or ethics or anything. It's evaluating the play of the guy in the role he is given, and the effect that has and will have on the team's success.

Is it his fault? Morally?

No, it's not. Yes, it's BC's fault. Drafting a guy who does what we already do and doesn't do what we don't do, and then putting him into the position that requires the most of what we don't do...that's a problem. Seems to me I may have made a post or 2 stating just that at the time. Yes, BC is to blame. No, Bargs at the 4 wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. No, it's not his fault or choice to not be able to play the 4. No, it wasn't his decision to come to a team where his talent was redundant and play in a situation where his weaknesses will be magnified.

Okay?

But, getting back to Andrea Bargnani, center, Toronto Raptors, his defensive weaknesses at the most crucial defensive position do and will continue to kill us, and it was forseeable.

[Avenger]

It's not personal, for me.

[sl64]

This is a part of this whole thing I've never understood.

It's not personal, for me. It's like when people have defended Bargs' poor rebounding by citing that he plays outside, hence isn't morally to blame or whatever. Like that matters. If he rebounds poorly because of where he stands or his position in relation to the equator or sun-spot activity in the ozone layer, it doesn't matter. The result is poor rebounding from the center position. It's not a moral issue. I've never been sure why some people get so personal about this kind of thing.

I've said this before -- perimeter-oriented bigs are never good offensive rebounders, because they're simply not in position to get offensive boards, so there is something to that line of thought. The way guys like Troy Murphy, Okur and Dirk make up for that, though, is by being good-to-great defensive rebounders.

Bargs is a terrible defensive rebounder.

[Fairview4Life]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers. ... 0&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

[Harry Palmer]

It's not personal, for me.

O-kay...

[Scott Carefoot]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what those numbers mean. Maybe you could explain them to me. And maybe you could also defend the argument that Bargnani at C is viable when the Raptors are dead last in the NBA in team defence, by a wide margin. I'm not saying it's all Bargnani's fault (it isn't) but I can't see how you can expect this team to ever play good team defence when their starting center might be the worst help defender in the league among starting centers.

[sl64]

Looking at those different lineups, it's shocking how much worse the Raps are with Jack in for DeRozan. Jack, a supposedly defensive-minded guy, coming in for DeRozan singlehandedly results in a 28 (!) point slide (or bump?) in defensive rating.

Interestingly enough, the results aren't nearly as bad with Jack as the PG.

Can we put this "Jack can play the 2" myth to bed already?

Who else is not shocked to see that Bargs-Bosh-Belli-Jose-Turks is arguably our best lineup? And who is not shocked that Triano has seen fit to play this lineup for a total of 16 minutes, while he's played the Jose-Jack backcourt three times as many? Jesus christ.

[Avenger]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

This has more to do with the fact that Andrea is actually underrated on the offensive end, even when not scoring he creates a lot of space and makes sure Bosh gets the best possible matchup just by being on the floor. We do play way better overall when Andrea is on the floor as opposed to the bench but we don't play better defence.

[Avenger]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what those numbers mean. Maybe you could explain them to me. And maybe you could also defend the argument that Bargnani at C is viable when the Raptors are dead last in the NBA in team defence, by a wide margin. I'm not saying it's all Bargnani's fault (it isn't) but I can't see how you can expect this team to ever play good team defence when their starting center might be the worst help defender in the league among starting centers.

Those are adjusted plus minus( a very popular metric among the so called experts) for different floor units. Andrea also has the best individual adjusted plus minus on the team, something he has fared very poorely in the last couple of years. This is basically the same analysis that Wayne Ewiston(?) guy does except he collects a nice paycheck every week from Mark Cuban.

[Fairview4Life]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

This has more to do with the fact that Andrea is actually underrated on the offensive end, even when not scoring he creates a lot of space and makes sure Bosh gets the best possible matchup just by being on the floor. We do play way better overall when Andrea is on the floor as opposed to the bench but we don't play better defence.

Maybe but the Raps biggest minute combo, the starters, has a decent defensive rating.

[Phenomenologist]

I don't understand this obsession with referring to on-court/off-court stats.

FACT: We are on pace for a historically futile defensive season.
FACT: Bargnani is our starting center and plays over 34 minutes a game.
(Basketball) FACT: The centre is the most vital defensive position on the floor.

(FUN FACT: Our team allows 117.7 points per 100 possessions with Bargnani on the floor.)

So go ahead and argue until your blue in the face that Bargnani's on-court/off-court (which, by the way, is a dubious stat to begin with) is slightly positive on the defensive side of the ball. It's still atrocious. Perhaps it gives some credence to the notion of not benching him, but given the small sample I think it would be worth it to give another guy (like, say, Amir) a chance to prove he can be superior (which, to my eye, he unequivocally is). Of course, the main point is that Bargnani needs to be replaced by a real centre at some point BECAUSE HE IS BAD AT IT. That's the point. On-court/off-court is irrelevant when you're atrociously, historically bad either way.

Again, I love Bargnani. He's a heck of an offensive player and entertaining to watch play (on that side of the ball). And it's not his fault that he was groomed for a role that never suited him. I dislike Colangelo immensely and always have. But that's not the point. The point is that the results are poor, and something needs to be done.

[Ted Lasso]

Calderon was especially dreadful last night. It was an unacceptable defensive performance. He needs to learn to be more physical, especially at the start of the play and even if it means taking a foul, when a player is sure to beat him in any given sequence. Williams is faster, quicker, and stronger than you Jose. We get it. But do something. Don't just stand there.

I'd actually been encouraged lately. He let Billups by him only once all game in Denver. And despite DarkKnight's brainwashing exercise, he actually did a heck of a job fighting in Phoenix.

I keep saying i'd like to refrain from having a go at Bargnani personally because he is not a centre and he is being put in this position by Bryan, but he is driving me crazy. It was difficult to be worse than Calderon defensively last night and yet Bargnani somehow pulled it off. He literally has no idea how to play help defence. On the rare occasions where he is around to challenge someone at the rim, he actually makes himself smaller and less of an obstacle. I fully understand that he would be a much smaller problem if he played next to a real centre, but in our current setup, i fail to understand how anyone can consistently watch Jose play defence, and Andrea play defence, and then come to the conclusion that Jose is a bigger problem.

That's not to give the rest of the team a pass. The coaching, Jack, Bosh.. just about everyone short of Amir, Rasho, and DeMar has been poor defensively. Especially the coaching.

[Dr Positivity]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what those numbers mean. Maybe you could explain them to me. And maybe you could also defend the argument that Bargnani at C is viable when the Raptors are dead last in the NBA in team defence, by a wide margin. I'm not saying it's all Bargnani's fault (it isn't) but I can't see how you can expect this team to ever play good team defence when their starting center might be the worst help defender in the league among starting centers.

My positive for the Bargnani dilemma would be this... it's not all his fault. If you put a guy like Kendrick Perkins or Ben Wallace at C right now, I don't think our defense all of a sudden becomes respectable.

Bargnani's help defense being so bad is a large part on him, but our system is absolutely terrible. Triano is a new coach learning on the job and his defensive system is not in place AT ALL. Clearly none of the players on our team know where to be rotating, helping, on switches, but they can certainly learn and everytime we have a game full of mishaps like last night, the players get ripped into for it and pushed to correct them next time

I don't think Bargnani will ever be an asset defensively. But we can get to the point with him where he doesn't kill us there. OKC is 8th in the league in defensive efficiency with Nenad Krstic at C. I have faith Bargnani can be a Krstic level defender in the right system and with a few more years of experience.

One player can not submarine a defensive system any more than one can single handidly make it great (even KG's Wolves didn't get much above like 15th defensively). Or any more than one guy can make an offense great or bad. If the system is in place, this team can survive Bargnani at C defensively

[Ted Lasso]

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=TOR
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.ph ... 0&team=TOR

Bargs at center can clearly work.

I'll be honest, I have no idea what those numbers mean. Maybe you could explain them to me. And maybe you could also defend the argument that Bargnani at C is viable when the Raptors are dead last in the NBA in team defence, by a wide margin. I'm not saying it's all Bargnani's fault (it isn't) but I can't see how you can expect this team to ever play good team defence when their starting center might be the worst help defender in the league among starting centers.

Those are adjusted plus minus( a very popular metric among the so called experts) for different floor units. Andrea also has the best individual adjusted plus minus on the team, something he has fared very poorely in the last couple of years. This is basically the same analysis that Wayne Ewiston(?) guy does except he collects a nice paycheck every week from Mark Cuban.

It is widely known that you need years of data to have a real indication of a player's impact on the floor in that field.

[Live Free]

This is a part of this whole thing I've never understood.

It's not personal, for me. It's like when people have defended Bargs' poor rebounding by citing that he plays outside, hence isn't morally to blame or whatever. Like that matters. If he rebounds poorly because of where he stands or his position in relation to the equator or sun-spot activity in the ozone layer, it doesn't matter. The result is poor rebounding from the center position. It's not a moral issue. I've never been sure why some people get so personal about this kind of thing.

This isn't about Andrea Bargnani, human being, earth...at least not for me. It's about Andrea Bargnani, center, Toronto Raptors. I'm actually pretty certain he's a nice guy, and I LOVE where he comes from, so this has nothing to do with liking him or justice or ethics or anything. It's evaluating the play of the guy in the role he is given, and the effect that has and will have on the team's success.

Is it his fault? Morally?

No, it's not. Yes, it's BC's fault. Drafting a guy who does what we already do and doesn't do what we don't do, and then putting him into the position that requires the most of what we don't do...that's a problem. Seems to me I may have made a post or 2 stating just that at the time. Yes, BC is to blame. No, Bargs at the 4 wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. No, it's not his fault or choice to not be able to play the 4. No, it wasn't his decision to come to a team where his talent was redundant and play in a situation where his weaknesses will be magnified.

Okay?

But, getting back to Andrea Bargnani, center, Toronto Raptors, his defensive weaknesses at the most crucial defensive position do and will continue to kill us, and it was forseeable.

Time to pack in the season

[Avenger]

It is widely known that you need years of data to have a real indication of a player's impact on the floor in that field.

12 games is obviously a small sample size but years? A lot of these stat gurus come up with MVP candidates and other awards based on numbers from less than one whole season, you definitely don't need years.